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Teaching your own clients in Canada

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

Hi All, I run a ski club and provide teaching on ski coaching holidays in Europe and we are considering doing a trip to Canada next season.  I am wondering if it is possible for us to teach our own club members or are there restrictions / licensing requirements? We would accompany our club members and be in country for a week or so. Is this legal and / or possible to do in Canadian resorts? If so are any resorts more "friendly" to outsiders than others?

 

http://www.insideoutskiing.com/holidays.html as an example of what we do in Europe.

post #2 of 24
Can't see how his would be any different than all the race clubs training or doing mountain camps.
I think the race clubs only notify when needing to rent lane space,
post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post

Can't see how his would be any different than all the race clubs training or doing mountain camps.
I think the race clubs only notify when needing to rent lane space,

 

 

The difference is that a visiting race club isn't "taking way" the opportunity for the hill to sell ski lessons.

post #4 of 24
Perhaps, but I don't see this as "taking away" the opportunity to sell ski lessons either. There is no opportunity lost because they wouldn't be coming over if not with the ski group.

The hill actually gains the revenue from lift tickets and food, again revenue they wouldn't have gotten anyway.

The question lays more in liability and insurance if something happens to the ski group. With racers this is covered by provincial ski race associations. Not sure how the liability policy works when instructor is from abroad (e.g. Does his policy cover to trips abroad?)
post #5 of 24

Make it part of the deal when your group books their block of rooms & lift tickets.  If your instruction is at no extra charge to the members, probably no problem.  If you charge extra, don't tell the mountain.

post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post

Perhaps, but I don't see this as "taking away" the opportunity to sell ski lessons either. There is no opportunity lost because they wouldn't be coming over if not with the ski group.

The hill actually gains the revenue from lift tickets and food, again revenue they wouldn't have gotten anyway.

The question lays more in liability and insurance if something happens to the ski group. With racers this is covered by provincial ski race associations. Not sure how the liability policy works when instructor is from abroad (e.g. Does his policy cover to trips abroad?)

 

 

While what you say makes sense, it's not what a resort thinks. Resorts figure you are going to the resort anyways and lessons are a addition, not the other way around. Besides it's like saying that it's isn't stealing to download X from the internet because I wouldn't have bought it anyways, so the company isn't losing money.

post #7 of 24
To liken it to stealing x by downloading from the Internet is ridiculous.

It is no more "stealing" than our racers are "stealing" by not enrolling in lessons with the hill (or joining that hills alpine team).
post #8 of 24

It could be possible. Here in Whistler there are a few foreign tour company's that bring in their own guides/instructors (mainly Japanese). Not sure what the arrangement is, best thing to do is to  contact the resorts ski school directly.

post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post

To liken it to stealing x by downloading from the Internet is ridiculous.

It is no more "stealing" than our racers are "stealing" by not enrolling in lessons with the hill (or joining that hills alpine team).

 

 

Get serious. By offering lessons at a resort, without prior consent, it is taking away their lesson business. To say they aren't going to take the resort's lessons anyways so they might as well let them is exactly the same argument. Some resorts might allow it, but most won't. Lessons are a big cash cow and even the bigger resorts count on tourists coming in and taking lessons

 

Resorts don't offer for-fee coaching to visiting racers, so in the case of visiting race teams, there is no lost opportunity cost. Rather, they pay for lane space if they don't have a friendly arrangement with that resort's team as a goodwill gesture that will be returned in time.

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity View Post
 

 

 

Get serious. By offering lessons at a resort, without prior consent, it is taking away their lesson business. To say they aren't going to take the resort's lessons anyways so they might as well let them is exactly the same argument. Some resorts might allow it, but most won't. Lessons are a big cash cow and even the bigger resorts count on tourists coming in and taking lessons

 

Resorts don't offer for-fee coaching to visiting racers, so in the case of visiting race teams, there is no lost opportunity cost. Rather, they pay for lane space if they don't have a friendly arrangement with that resort's team as a goodwill gesture that will be returned in time.

 

Perhaps some resorts do see it that way, but other resorts are very accommodating, I have just got back to Japan from teaching at a CO resort and they were happy to have me there. Can't see why Canada would be any different. 

post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post
 

Perhaps some resorts do see it that way, but other resorts are very accommodating, I have just got back to Japan from teaching at a CO resort and they were happy to have me there. Can't see why Canada would be any different. 

 

 

I didn't say it wasn't possible, and in some cases it would be OK, especially where the resorts cannot accommodate things like language. I assume you were teaching Japanese students? However, I would also say that you would still have to clear it with the resort before showing up and setting up shop in any event.

post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity View Post


I didn't say it wasn't possible, and in some cases it would be OK, especially where the resorts cannot accommodate things like language. I assume you were teaching Japanese students? However, I would also say that you would still have to clear it with the resort before showing up and setting up shop in any event.

I am normally based in Japan, I taught some Brazilian clients of mine in Colorado. Of course you would have to clear it with the resort.
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 

Hey James, cheers for the info. I saw your link so recognised your name... It's Scott from Saas Fee here...   Which resort did you go to? any contacts would be warmly welcomed... I assumed that in the States as the resorts are on federal land that no independent teaching is allowed hence considering Canada but if your group was okay be good to add US resorts into the mix

post #14 of 24

Scott - Get in touch with (Rupert I think?) from Non-stop ski.  I know they use resort instructors on their programmes but they might be able to give you the contacts in the resorts to deal with, as long as you don't have the aspiration of getting big enough to compete with them.

post #15 of 24

Here's the answer from the Canadian Ski Instructor Alliance: 

 

Quote:
 Q: I am a CSIA instructor and I’m considering teaching independently at various ski resorts. Do I require the permission of the host resort to do so? If not, can you please explain why?

A: Each resort will have its own policy on this. You will find that virtually NO resort in Canada permits freelance instruction, where an individual not affiliated with the resort accepts money to teach on the hill. This is not a CSIA issue and it is up to each resort to set and enforce policies. 

As a point of clarity, this has nothing to do with the many independent snow schools, operating across Canada. These organizations will have entered into agreements with the resorts at which they operate. These agreements will likely include a requirement that the organization hold their own third party liability insurance and that the host resort is provided coverage under that policy. Each member must make their own choices with respect to their business activities. The CSIA works together with our industry partners for the good of the sport and the industry and we encourage each member to make responsible, well considered decisions.

 

https://www.snowpro.com/en/faq/36-faq-insurance

 

Here's another article written by Sandy Millar, whose company insures CSIA members: https://www.casi-acms.com/pdfs/Insurance_Update_En_2013.pdf

 

The CSIA executive has a vested (major conflict of) interest in this issue, but their statements are accurate because: 

1 - The executive is made up of directors of ski schools

2 - The CSIA provides insurance to members, but only when the members are teaching through a ski school (the insurer employs a past CSIA BC board director; biased, yes, but they're parroting what the resorts want)

 

I'm hugely against the CSIA's stance, but the fact remains that resorts are privately owned (though sometimes operating on public or leased land) in Canada. If you do not talk to the mountain to get their permission, you and your group are essentially gambling that you won't get caught. You'll need to decide if it's worth gambling your group's lift tickets. Yes, there are groups that are happy to take this gamble. 

 

Some things that might weigh in your favor for getting permission without spending buckets of money: 

  • Your group is from Europe and the members don't speak English, French, Spanish or Italian (depending on which resort you're going to)
  • You're bringing business to the hill that normally wouldn't go there
  • You need them to be taught to your Czech/Polish/Lithuanian/Italian level x standard in prep for further instructor training
  • Your group has some other kind of special need that only you can address

 

Good luck!


Edited by Metaphor_ - 2/3/16 at 6:05am
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 

Thanks all,  I will need to check to see if our PI insurance is valid in CA and / or the States. I doubt it will be in the USA. 

 

We are British (BASI) and Irish (IASI) qualified instructors and will be teaching British visitors (in English) 

post #17 of 24

In addition to what Meta said, it is often a liability issue.

 

As a CSIA/CSCF member, you are insured only if coaching within a "program". The hill will frown upon anyone coaching outside of a "program" they approve of.

 

Having said that, skiing with your buddies and discussing technique is usually ok... :cool

post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 

I had a quick look at our Liability Insurance and I think it would cover us but would need to make a few calls to confirm. Many BASI members work in North America and are covered. We also have club insurance so hopefully won't the insurance issue won't be a deal breaker. 

If you were going to recommend a resort for a once in a lifetime trip to ski North America what would it be ? Aspen and Whistler were mentioned as friendly to outside groups, any other premier resorts  that we should consider ?

post #19 of 24
The Banff group, Sunshine, Lake Loiuse, Norqe (sorry if the spelling is wrong). Three different accessible hills well worth skiing.
post #20 of 24

It depends on the ability of your group. For more advanced skiers, Canada has a Powder Highway, which is Revelstoke, Kicking Horse, Panorama, Kimberley, Whitewater, and Red. I'd expect at the smaller resorts it would be a non-issue to take your "touring group" there. 

 

Also lots of fun for experts but quite accessible for intermediates is the Okanagan, which includes Silver Star, Sun Peaks, Big White, and Apex. Sun Peaks and Big White in particular offer lots of intermediate terrain. Sun Peaks is the second-largest ski area in Canada after Whistler. You might also be able to ski with Nancy Green there!

 

If you want a cultural experience, a trip to Quebec would be amazing for your group. From Quebec City, you can get to Stoneham, Le Massif and Mont Sainte Anne all within a 45 minute drive. These aren't massive areas, but they're all good for 2-3 days each of skiing. You're much less likely to get powder days in the east, crowds are larger, and the conditions are much more firm, but as a cultural experience it would be worthwhile. Plus Quebec City offers tons of shopping and amenities that don't exist elsewhere.

post #21 of 24
Forget about once in a lifetime. Nowhere has conditions that are absolutely reliable enough to be absolutely exceptional booking a long time out. So oversell it and people might be disappointed - witness the whining from people who try Whistler once and get rained on all week. For a single place the obvious answer is Whistler. For the real experience of Canada a road trip of Lake Louise, KH, Revy and Fernie would be my recommendation but you need to be prepared to drive a few hours after skiing a couple of times.
post #22 of 24
Aspen is the real deal but altitude is a factor for sea level Brits flying in there.
post #23 of 24

In S. Ont. we have several travelling ski schools, some for adults, some for kids.

 

These travelling ski schools go to different ski areas on a regular basis, and have arranged in advance to teach their members on their own.

They even visit some of the private ski clubs in this area on otherwise slow mid-week days.

 

The resorts are quite happy to sell 50 to 750 daily lift tickets, and some lunches, and for this they don't mind forgoing the ski school revenue.

 

There are also a few groups with only a dozen or so members in attendance who also use their own instructors and coaches, again with full support of the local management.

 

Staff for the these ski schools are CSIA/CSCF/CASI members in good standing.

 

Some of these travelling clubs go to areas in other provinces and in other countries for weekend and longer trips.

Similar story -- many areas will welcome these travelling clubs, and are quite happy to have a busload of customers

 

The key to success for all of these groups is to communicate openly in advance, and to work in co-operation with resort management.

 

Just showing up unannounced with your group won't usually go over so well.

post #24 of 24
Lots of those in Quebec as well, on smaller hills during weekend kids from those programs can account for a significant portion of the skiers. One of those is called rod roy, google for their website.
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