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Getting Forward discussion in other thread

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

Interesting talk about being forward in one or two of the recent MA threads.  Mr. Barnes talked about actually being too far forward, I believe causing some issues with the tails of the skis.  

 

I have been working hard on my  forward movement and position this year.  And if I ever actually have a day when our trails are full width and there are not two thousand skiers going down at once, well I may even have vid made so you guys can go to town on me.  Anyway, I think I had a major breakthrough this season because I realized that in the past, I was "driving" my knee forward, which basically put my a$$ a bit too far back.  While I may have been pushing on the front of the boot, it was not nearly enough or maybe not for long enough time.  Not sure which, maybe both.  This year I started to focus on getting my hips forward.  Probably a subtle difference, but it seems quite different to me.  I am trying to close my ankles by using my whole body mass, vs. pushing the knees forward.  So I am sitting around all happy about how this small part of my skiing is going for the better and then I start reading about too much forward lean and the timing of said forward lean.  

 

So now I am all confused again.  I try so hard to keep the forward pressure there all the time.  In reality, I know it is not possible for me, especially on my slalom skis because things happen so fast.  I swear half the time I am struggling to keep up with those skis.  While this has been discussed to death I'm sure, could someone guide me through this?  I am using the cross under motion now (wasn't doing that last season), and this has helped me immensely to keep my upper body in a much better position.  It has all but eliminated my banking problem.  So, as I bring my skis up and under me I am trying very hard to pull my body forward into the new turn, ahead of my skis.  Eventually that forward position starts to pressure the ski tips.  I can't imagine being able drive my body so far forward that I over power the tips or cause problems with the tails of my skis.  

 

Now I have seen comments that pressure builds on the balls of the feet and travels back toward the heels as one progresses through the turn.  I guess I am trying to understand this concept.  It may be just happening automatically because sometimes I am fighting the feeling that the skis really want to squirt ahead of me.  But I have to be honest, all I think about is trying to drive those ski tips once I am in the fall line.  Body  forward into the new turn.... try to use a pole plant to help pull my body toward the new direction................that is all that is going through my little brains these days.

 

One more question... does the type of ski make a difference as well?  I use three skis, rossi hero LT, rossi hero ST, and a Kendo. 

 

 

Off topic..... Trying not to park and ride.  Focusing on continued flexing of inside leg and changing direction once I stop.  It is incredibly hard.  Not only does it require commitment as you pick up speed, but the timing has to be dead on.  Any drills to help or is it just a matter of time on the snow?  I can see it in my head but reality is completely different.  Hats off to you guys that have this figured out.  

 

 

Thanks 

 

Pete

post #2 of 9

Hi Pete!

 

I can see how you're all discombobulated.  So many concepts. So much complexivity (is that a word?).  It''s all WAY simple.. unless you make it un-simple.  IMO YOU ARE TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH- and too much of the wrong stuff to boot.  Let's see if I can break down some of your comments. 

 

Quote:
  I realized that in the past, I was "driving" my knee forward, which basically put my a$$ a bit too far back.

That's a good start. DRIVING knees is not a good concept. Knees only need angle (usually caused by ankle articulation). I find the boot cuffs work best only as support and stability, not leverage generators.  If you attempt to flex your boots with too much force you will leverage your feet off the bottoms of the boots and lose the foot/snow connection... and push your butt back, which is attached to your CoM. I rarely think of flexing forward, at least not down on the boot cuffs  Once I have solid contact with the fronts of my boots I'm thinking more laterally. 

 

Quote:
 This year I started to focus on getting my hips forward.  Probably a subtle difference, but it seems quite different to me.  I am trying to close my ankles by using my whole body mass, vs. pushing the knees forward.  

Have you tried simply to keep your feet more behind you?   You will find that to change hip position it is usually (much)  easier just to pull your feet back underneath rather than try to move your hips forward. 

 

Quote:
 So, as I bring my skis up and under me I am trying very hard to pull my body forward into the new turn, ahead of my skis.  Eventually that forward position starts to pressure the ski tips

Too much/too early a move, while better than too little/too late isn't ideal.  If you're body is too far down the hill too early you rob yourself of the ability to smoothly transfer pressure as things develop. If you need to transfer pressure to the new outside ski earlier in the turn you cannot be that far away from it until the centripetal force builds. The extension has to be reserved for the correct time, dependent of the turn. I suspect the move you are getting to a fully extended position too early and then compensating with a little too much inclination. 

 

What I find with many upper level students is the TIMING of how all their skills blend together.  All the movements have to sync up.  As I said earlier, it is sometimes too much, too early (or late) or all of the above.  In my overall ski thesis ("The Three Most Important Things in Skiing") I list "lateral body position" for lower level skiers and "dynamic position" (where the CoM rides in space and time) as #3. 

 

In other words... The the movement, timing of your  CoM and the dyanmics of each turns probably needs some "sync tweaking". 

 

Second- 

Quote:
  I have seen comments that pressure builds on the balls of the feet and travels back toward the heels as one progresses through the turn.  I guess I am trying to understand this concept

Yes, the pressure naturally builds and pressure can travel under your feet.  There is a right way and a wrong way. The right way- As I mentioned you can position your hips forward by pulling your feet more behind you.  You can adjust pressure along the foot the same way. Position your feet as to help pressure whatever part of the ski you wish. The wrong way is to allow your body to do it.  EVERYTHING HAPPENS FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE FEET, UP!  BTW- You can pull and push feet back and forth independently. I'll often pull my old outside ski back before the release of a turn so the front is (more or less) pre-loaded so there is little time between the release of the old turn and ENAGAGEMENT the ski in the new turn. 

 

Third-

Quote:
  Focusing on continued flexing of inside leg and changing direction once I stop.  It is incredibly hard.  Not only does it require commitment as you pick up speed, but the timing has to be dead on. 

You have to understand the reasons (and functions)  flexing the inside leg and HOW THE TIMING WORKS. The timing of edging, flexing, extending is that synchronicity of the aspect of your turn combined with your DYNAMIC BODY POSITION... which dictates the timing of all of your movements [This concept is usually thought of in reverse]. A good (and extreme) example of this is the Whitepass turn.  As awkward as the WPT is (which is why it isn't used as a bread-and-butter turn) the lesson in it is how dynamic body position dictates the window of opportunity for pressure transfer and synchronization of all the movements.  

 

 I hope this all provides a little clarity. Sorry for being so long winded.

post #3 of 9

You goal should be to have your feet under your hips.  Here is a video where Josh Foster covers this topic.

 

post #4 of 9
Thread Starter 

Always appreciate your comments, even the long ones :)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

Hi Pete!

 

I can see how you're all discombobulated.  So many concepts. So much complexivity (is that a word?).  It''s all WAY simple.. unless you make it un-simple.  IMO YOU ARE TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH- and too much of the wrong stuff to boot.  Let's see if I can break down some of your comments. 

 

That's a good start. DRIVING knees is not a good concept. Knees only need angle (usually caused by ankle articulation). I find the boot cuffs work best only as support and stability, not leverage generators.  If you attempt to flex your boots with too much force you will leverage your feet off the bottoms of the boots and lose the foot/snow connection... and push your butt back, which is attached to your CoM. I rarely think of flexing forward, at least not down on the boot cuffs  Once I have solid contact with the fronts of my boots I'm thinking more laterally. 

 

Have you tried simply to keep your feet more behind you?   You will find that to change hip position it is usually (much)  easier just to pull your feet back underneath rather than try to move your hips forward.   I have seen this mentioned before, I just can't seem to grasp the concept of pulling my feet back.  I have had a little luck pushing the outside  leg forward a bit (just for the heck of it), but even that has not gone too well.  Pulling the inside foot back.... forget about it.  

 

Too much/too early a move, while better than too little/too late isn't ideal.  If you're body is too far down the hill too early you rob yourself of the ability to smoothly transfer pressure as things develop. If you need to transfer pressure to the new outside ski earlier in the turn you cannot be that far away from it until the centripetal force builds. The extension has to be reserved for the correct time, dependent of the turn. I suspect the move you are getting to a fully extended position too early and then compensating with a little too much inclination.  This is an area where I have improved.  You guys picked up on this on my  MA last season.  I was blowing through things too early.  I did a bunch of one legged skiing and whitepass turns this season and I finally realized what you were talking about....... PATIENCE.  My timing is still off (comment below) but much better.   I need to post some vid.  I think my inclination issues are much better compared to last season, largely due to the quieting down of my upper body between turns (Although, reading my first post, you probably think my body is flailing around like a fish out of water).  I am not blowing out as much on icy/hard conditions and have actually started to enjoy the near ice stuff.  Something somewhere is improving, just not enough. 

 

What I find with many upper level students is the TIMING of how all their skills blend together.  All the movements have to sync up.  As I said earlier, it is sometimes too much, too early (or late) or all of the above.  In my overall ski thesis ("The Three Most Important Things in Skiing") I list "lateral body position" for lower level skiers and "dynamic position" (where the CoM rides in space and time) as #3. 

 

In other words... The the movement, timing of your  CoM and the dyanmics of each turns probably needs some "sync tweaking".  Yup.  

 

 

post #5 of 9
Quote:

Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

 

I'll often pull my old outside ski back before the release of a turn so the front is (more or less) pre-loaded so there is little time between the release of the old turn and ENAGAGEMENT the ski in the new turn. 

 

I've seen this type of thing posted a few times in different threads and am trying to understand it - seems like that should be the "old inside ski" (or "new outside ski"), as toward the finish of a turn if there is any counter at all the old outside ski is already going to be back of the old inside ski, perhaps more even (little or no tip lead) if it's more of a squared up, longer radius turn.

 

As in the turns in this vid here, which someone else posted earlier today...

 

  https://www.facebook.com/LovelandSkiClub/videos/982798385091260

 

Am I missing something?


Edited by jc-ski - 2/1/16 at 5:59pm
post #6 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

I've seen this type of thing posted a few times in different threads and am trying to understand it - seems like that should be the "old inside ski" (or "new outside ski"), as toward the finish of a turn if there is any counter at all the old outside ski is already going to be back of the old inside ski, perhaps more even (little or no tip lead) if it's more of a squared up, longer radius turn.

 

As in the turns in this vid here, which someone else posted earlier today...

 

  https://www.facebook.com/LovelandSkiClub/videos/982798385091260

 

Am I missing something?

Thanks JC-... I wrote it backwards.  I stand corrected.  Essentially what I THOUGHT I was illustrating was the reverse of the typical scissors.  I pull the old inside ski back.  Thanks for catching it. 

post #7 of 9

My take on the "getting forward" idea...

 

The common failing of "getting back" is founded on self preservation that just does not apply when wearing skis.

 

The way to find center is to play with extremes.  So go for the "get forward" theme (include the hands!)  and see where that leads.  If tails are washing out,  well,  pull your feet under yourself a bit.   Try the intentional "back seat" as well.  Take opportunity to feel it, and how you got there and how to get out of it. (and where your hands are)    EXPERIMENT!  Watching someone else ski gives YOU no sense of appreciation.  "You have to be there".  ;-)

post #8 of 9

As far as I can tell the nature of a turn requires an adjustment to move the body forward during transition.  Going around a turn the skis have farther to go and must move faster, but in a transition, the body has farther to go and is already moving slower.  Once the turn forces are released, the skis will beat the body causing the skier to be too far back coming into the next turn.  So, one transition racers talk about is to push the body diagonally forward during transition.  Another method for cross under transitions is to pull the feet back.  Too far forward is not good either, but there must always be an effort to get forward since by nature the skier will be too far back after transition.

post #9 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 

As far as I can tell the nature of a turn requires an adjustment to move the body forward during transition.  Going around a turn the skis have farther to go and must move faster, but in a transition, the body has farther to go and is already moving slower.  Once the turn forces are released, the skis will beat the body causing the skier to be too far back coming into the next turn.  So, one transition racers talk about is to push the body diagonally forward during transition.  Another method for cross under transitions is to pull the feet back.  Too far forward is not good either, but there must always be an effort to get forward since by nature the skier will be too far back after transition.

It's called re-centering. Your pole touch/plant is part of the process.

 

And I totally reject that notion that some push, which is that if you are not out of center in the first place,  there is no need to recenter. 

 

This is total hogwash!  Re-centering is part of the required sequence of a turn.


Edited by Atomicman - 2/2/16 at 1:18pm
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