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Thread to NOT MISS

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Alert, for those of you that avoid or skip over the ASK A SKI PRO threads.   Under Chatter ?   Bob Barnes has answered in his totally 100% fashion and anyone who skis need to read this entry by Mr. Barnes.  Don't give up when you start reading, read and watch all the videos, an AHA moment.Thumbs UpThumbs Up

post #2 of 28

I believe this is the post you're referring to : http://www.epicski.com/t/144711/new-skis-new-problem-chatter#post_1966239

post #3 of 28

Fascinating explanation.  Got a lot out of it as an intermediate, thanks.

post #4 of 28

Probably all good advice but if I tried to think that hard about my skiing my head would explode and my legs would freeze.

post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

Probably all good advice but if I tried to think that hard about my skiing my head would explode and my legs would freeze.

 Agree.  I am not a head/technical/perfect turn guy.   However, I got out on the groomers today and tried to keep my core going downhill with my skis turning around my core and the skis going faster than my core was going downhill and it really works.  Now could I do it on a steep difficult run or off piste, am sure the answer is NO.  Did get the feel though and it was a good feedback.

post #6 of 28

IMO its not a lot to think about. Its that he really thoroughly explained it in great detail. Great stuff!!! Thanks Pete, I would've missed it for sure. Ive been practicing this as well on the blue cruisers and having some success (maybe 50%). You definitely can feel it when it happens. Once I get that percentage up on the blues I will take it to the steeper stuff. I think if the fear element is removed on the steeper terrain it may be easier to keep the COM moving down the fall line due to less resistance, but that's just theoretical at the moment and perhaps easier said than done.

post #7 of 28

It's good advice of course. 

post #8 of 28

Damn, can't watch the video's here, I'll have to wait until I get home.

 

From what I can gather, isn't it just about upper body separation ? The upper body stays straight down the fall line, shoulders follow the horizon, hands out in front for the pole touches, feet and legs go from side to side under you. That's just short radius turns down the fall line. I do that under lift where all the snow gets pushed and most people don't ski there in the afternoons.

 

I'll try and remember to watch from home. 

 

Yep, watched them. I try and do it with less upper body movement, but I'm also going much slower and I'm not in the great shape as the racers. I also try and keep the outside of the arch's about 8-10 wide. Again at a slower pace.


Edited by Max Capacity - 1/26/16 at 3:30pm
post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 

IMO its not a lot to think about. Its that he really thoroughly explained it in great detail. Great stuff!!! Thanks Pete, I would've missed it for sure. Ive been practicing this as well on the blue cruisers and having some success (maybe 50%). You definitely can feel it when it happens. Once I get that percentage up on the blues I will take it to the steeper stuff. I think if the fear element is removed on the steeper terrain it may be easier to keep the COM moving down the fall line due to less resistance, but that's just theoretical at the moment and perhaps easier said than done.

 Ditto, I can't post on Ask a Ski Pro so will put question here and see if Bob reads.  I think I did and felt the basic of keeping the com going down the hill with my ski's turning around my center of mass but really couldn't tell or don't know how to tell if my skis are traveling faster than my com is going down the hill.  I think this was happening but is there a key to look for?

post #10 of 28

I think another way of describing this--perhaps out of date--is diagonal crossover--your body crosses over the skis from side to side and also moves down the hill across the turning ski. It is interesting to me that one can describe and perform these movements in terms of what the skis and feet are doing or in terms of what the body is doing with the same result. One can move the body down the hill or pull the feet back--same result. 

What I am finding as I fight a stem in crud and bumps is that working on getting the feet out to the side and the body down the hill, which seems to be thought of as more of a groomed snow concept, seems to help a lot with the stem in the crud and bumps. 

post #11 of 28
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

 

 Ditto, I can't post on Ask a Ski Pro so will put question here and see if Bob reads.  I think I did and felt the basic of keeping the com going down the hill with my ski's turning around my center of mass but really couldn't tell or don't know how to tell if my skis are traveling faster than my com is going down the hill.  I think this was happening but is there a key to look for?

 

I'll take a stab at it until hopefully Bob or another instructor weighs in. Can you feel the ski taking off away from you just as they cross the fall line at the bottom/top of the turns? And when I say taking off I mean like a rocket. I don't know if this is correct or not but it seems to me like whenever I feel really good on a turn and my sequence of movements all lines up, this happens. At this point, I feel like if I don't move my com down the hill, boom! i'm in the back seat. So what I was playing with last time on the hill was pulling my feet back at that moment only IF I felt the skis were getting away from me (sort of a recovery move). I had to be real patient and fight my natural urge to start the next turn too soon. It seemed to help but please take this with a grain of salt as I may be totally off base and creating more bad habits.

post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 

 

I'll take a stab at it until hopefully Bob or another instructor weighs in. Can you feel the ski taking off away from you just as they cross the fall line at the bottom/top of the turns? And when I say taking off I mean like a rocket. I don't know if this is correct or not but it seems to me like whenever I feel really good on a turn and my sequence of movements all lines up, this happens. At this point, I feel like if I don't move my com down the hill, boom! i'm in the back seat. So what I was playing with last time on the hill was pulling my feet back at that moment only IF I felt the skis were getting away from me (sort of a recovery move). I had to be real patient and fight my natural urge to start the next turn too soon. It seemed to help but please take this with a grain of salt as I may be totally off base and creating more bad habits.

Pulling my feet back has always been a very hard thing for me to do.  There is something about moving down the hill that keeps me from performing this drill.   Sometimes when I ski relatively slow on a well groomed run and work on matching my ski thru the whole turn where I can sorta pull my uphill/inside ski back a little but it still feels weird to me.

post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
 

Pulling my feet back has always been a very hard thing for me to do.  There is something about moving down the hill that keeps me from performing this drill.   Sometimes when I ski relatively slow on a well groomed run and work on matching my ski thru the whole turn where I can sorta pull my uphill/inside ski back a little but it still feels weird to me.


Yeah I always found it very difficult as well. I actually cant really pull them back at all but I can activate my hamstrings creating a resistance to the skis. For me, it leads to a sensation of a brace effect that allows me to get over my skis again (like a lever) if that makes any sense? For some reason I find it easier to do with my downhill ski.

post #14 of 28

I learned, "pulling the feet back" years ago in a lesson with Tom Powers Level III from Killington. It just clicked for me. Another thing I learned about keeping the hands forward is, think of it as your reaching for a door knob to open the next turn. The hands have to be forward and ready. Learned that from a great lesson at Sunday River back about 1998.

 

Have you guy's tried skiing short radius turns in the crud over the grooming berm on the edge of the trail ? Ski it slow, the goal is to make all your turns no wider then the length of your skis. This drill teaches balance and different way's to adjust and sometime finishing the turn on the uphill ski. If you get it wrong, you can stop quickly, take a breath and start again.

post #15 of 28
Just my .02. I stack my hips over my skis. Pulling the skis back works as a drill but eventually you shouldn't have to.
post #16 of 28

Another thing I've figured out, line up the toes, knees and nose. That keeps you up and forward and flexed at the knees. Don't do that by flexing at the waist, "present your pelvis" was another thing I've been told.  Does that make sense ?

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

Another thing I've figured out, line up the toes, knees and nose. That keeps you up and forward and flexed at the knees. Don't do that by flexing at the waist, "present your pelvis" was another thing I've been told.  Does that make sense ?


That makes sense to me while in transition but when the skis are moving across the fall line I would imaging the toes would fall out of alignment? Should this thread be moved to the Instruction forum now?

post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by agreen View Post
 


That makes sense to me while in transition but when the skis are moving across the fall line I would imaging the toes would fall out of alignment? Should this thread be moved to the Instruction forum now?


Yes, you are correct, I was just talking the toes, knees nose thing when gliding on the flats. It's a good starting position for other movements. Sorry for not explaining that.

post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Just my .02. I stack my hips over my skis. Pulling the skis back works as a drill but eventually you shouldn't have to.

 

Like this slider,  unknown to myself I was dropping my hips slightly back and to the inside.  Correcting now and boy what a  difference in my turns.

post #20 of 28
Alignment and balance are key components to good skiing Pete. Equipment and conditions play a backseat to good technical skiing. Carving 170 sl skis in soft snow.
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Alignment and balance are key components to good skiing Pete. Equipment and conditions play a backseat to good technical skiing. Carving 170 sl skis in soft snow.

Nice Slider.   As you know I am sort of a loose skier. Couldn't think of a better term without my Thesaurus close by.  OK so my turns are indescribable but they feel good, sometimes.

post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

Another thing I've figured out, line up the toes, knees and nose. That keeps you up and forward and flexed at the knees. Don't do that by flexing at the waist, "present your pelvis" was another thing I've been told.  Does that make sense ?

 

 

When I was a younger man I had a lady skier tell me that once, thats when I learned to ski in the trees.  :beercheer::bs:

post #23 of 28
Loose is good to a point. Relaxed flexing helps absorb terrain and long leg short leg improves turn dynamics. Rain today in the mts.
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

I think another way of describing this--perhaps out of date--is diagonal crossover--your body crosses over the skis from side to side and also moves down the hill across the turning ski. It is interesting to me that one can describe and perform these movements in terms of what the skis and feet are doing or in terms of what the body is doing with the same result. One can move the body down the hill or pull the feet back--same result. 

What I am finding as I fight a stem in crud and bumps is that working on getting the feet out to the side and the body down the hill, which seems to be thought of as more of a groomed snow concept, seems to help a lot with the stem in the crud and bumps. 

 

I disagree in this case that pulling the feet back is equivalent to moving the body down the hill.  What is getting confused here is for/aft balance along the length of the ski vs a lateral move to help with edge engagement or in this case edge disengagement.  I think you will find it very hard bio-mechanically to get your feet uphill of your body in transition just by pulling them back.

 

The root cause of your stem, as you are describing it, is that you are still holding onto the old turn while you are starting the new turn.  The stem will go away when you begin the new turn by releasing the old outside ski.  The diagonal cross over move helps with this because there is no lateral joint in your knee, if your hips cross over, your edges must release.  

 

Pulling the feet back can help with edge release if you are in the backseat and not ready to start the next turn.  What pulling the feet back does in this case is set you up better to shorten and tip the new inside/old outside leg which allows you to move the CM inside and change edges.  Rather than pulling my feet back, I prefer to keep some "functional" tension in the ankle of the inside foot through the end of the turn to prevent that ski from getting too far forward.  Allowing that ski to move forward too much will make it hard to transfer pressure to it effectively when it become the outside ski after your transition.

 

The basic movements of skiing remain the same in all terrain and conditions.  We change the DIRT or Duration/Direction, Intensity, Rate, and Timing of those movements to fit the specific needs of any given turn.  I would guess that you also have a slight stem on the groomed, but that it gets bigger and more problematic as you step outside your comfort level on harder terrain and more challenging conditions.  It happens to everyone.  Address the root cause, commit to the new turn, and it will go away.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

Another thing I've figured out, line up the toes, knees and nose. That keeps you up and forward and flexed at the knees. Don't do that by flexing at the waist, "present your pelvis" was another thing I've been told.  Does that make sense ?

 

I agree with this to a point, but it is too simplistic.  In skiing there are no positions, only transitions.  Focusing too much on something like this will make you static in your turns.  You could even wind up skiing like some kind of PSIA robot:eek.  That kind of vertical alignment really only applies to certain phases of a turn and which phases depends on what kind of turn you are making.  To use a driving analogy, what is described by the Toe/Knee/Nose alignment is a fair description of neutral.  We don't drive around in neutral, but we do pass through neutral every time we shift gears.  We don't want to be forward all the time while skiing.  We want to be able to move "forward" at the right time.  You won't be able to move forward unless you also settle back.  The issue is further compounded by what we mean by forward.  As BB has stated, in the referenced post and on many other occasions, forward isn't always towards the skis tips.

 

Presenting the pelvis refers to upper/lower body separation and the forward move.  PSIA calls it counter, others call it counter acting, I've been using the term coiling more often these days.  In skiing the pelvis is part of the upper body.  When the feet point one way and the upper body faces another there is some tension created in the middle.  This tension can/should be created through the end of the old turn and harvested in the beginning of the new turn.  Without doing this a skier is going to have to use the upper body to initiate turns.

 

Question:  Why do so many skiers rotate their upper bodies to intitate turns?

Answer:  Because it works!

 

I know a lot of PSIA people who get all bent up when I say this, but it is true.  If it didn't work, everyone would stop doing it.  It comes with a cost and is not the best way, but it does work.  I would guess that when Pete is describing his back and inside issue that the root cause is lack of upper/lower body separation.  

 

Excessive flexing at the waist or as I call it "collapsing like the dipping bird" not only makes your lower back sore, it makes it much harder to use the ball and socket joint in your hip to create separation and steer the skis.


Edited by tetonpwdrjunkie - 1/29/16 at 10:24am
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

I disagree in this case that pulling the feet back is equivalent to moving the body down the hill.  What is getting confused here is for/aft balance along the length of the ski vs a lateral move to help with edge engagement or in this case edge disengagement.  I think you will find it very hard bio-mechanically to get your feet uphill of your body in transition just by pulling them back.

 

The root cause of your stem, as you are describing it, is that you are still holding onto the old turn while you are starting the new turn.  The stem will go away when you begin the new turn by releasing the old outside ski.  The diagonal cross over move helps with this because there is no lateral joint in your knee, if your hips cross over, your edges must release.  

 

Pulling the feet back can help with edge release if you are in the backseat and not ready to start the next turn.  What pulling the feet back does in this case is set you up better to shorten and tip the new inside/old outside leg which allows you to move the CM inside and change edges.  Rather than pulling my feet back, I prefer to keep some "functional" tension in the ankle of the inside foot through the end of the turn to prevent that ski from getting too far forward.  Allowing that ski to move forward too much will make it hard to transfer pressure to it effectively when it become the outside ski after your transition.

 

The basic movements of skiing remain the same in all terrain and conditions.  We change the DIRT or Duration/Direction, Intensity, Rate, and Timing of those movements to fit the specific needs of any given turn.  I would guess that you also have a slight stem on the groomed, but that it gets bigger and more problematic as you step outside your comfort level on harder terrain and more challenging conditions.  It happens to everyone.  Address the root cause, commit to the new turn, and it will go away.

 

 

I agree with this to a point, but it is too simplistic.  In skiing there are no positions, only transitions.  Focusing too much on something like this will make you static in your turns.  You could even wind up skiing like some kind of PSIA robot:eek.  That kind of vertical alignment really only applies to certain phases of a turn and which phases depends on what kind of turn you are making.  To use a driving analogy, what is described by the Toe/Knee/Nose alignment is a fair description of neutral.  We don't drive around in neutral, but we do pass through neutral every time we shift gears.  We don't want to be forward all the time while skiing.  We want to be able to move "forward" at the right time.  You won't be able to move forward unless you also settle back.  The issue is further compounded by what we mean by forward.  As BB has stated, in the referenced post and on many other occasions, forward isn't always towards the skis tips.

 

Presenting the pelvis refers to upper/lower body separation and the forward move.  PSIA calls it counter, others call it counter acting, I've been using the term coiling more often these days.  In skiing the pelvis is part of the upper body.  When the feet point one way and the upper body faces another there is some tension created in the middle.  This tension can/should be created through the end of the old turn and harvested in the beginning of the new turn.  Without doing this a skier is going to have to use the upper body to initiate turns.

 

Question:  Why to so many skiers rotate their upper bodies to intitate turns?

Answer:  Because it works!

 

I know a lot of PSIA people who get all bent up when I say this, but it is true.  If it didn't work, everyone would stop doing it.  It comes with a cost and is not the best way, but it does work.  I would guess that when Pete is describing his back and inside issue that the root cause is lack of upper/lower body separation.  

 

Excessive flexing at the waist or as I call it "collapsing like the dipping bird" not only makes your lower back sore, it makes it much harder to use the ball and socket joint in your hip to create separation and steer the skis.


Great replies. Yes I know my answer is simplistic, it's just one piece of the puzzle. Thank you for explaining.

 

I do wish people would stop wasting energy by rotating their upper body's. I'm just lazy and want to find the most efficient way down the hill. I feel lucky that I have a number of friends that are great instructors and over the years have helped me get to where I am.

post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 


Great replies. Yes I know my answer is simplistic, it's just one piece of the puzzle. Thank you for explaining.

 

I do wish people would stop wasting energy by rotating their upper body's. I'm just lazy and want to find the most efficient way down the hill. I feel lucky that I have a number of friends that are great instructors and over the years have helped me get to where I am.

 

I actually no longer care how people are making their turns unless they have paid for a lesson from me or asked me for help.  The real purpose of skiing is as a recreational activity for most people.  If they are safe and having fun everybody wins.  Personally I have found that I get more satisfaction and enjoyment from skiing well so I am always trying to improve.  Skiing with more effective movements allows me to keep pushing towards skiing faster on more interesting terrain.  Skiing is an expensive pain in the ass.  If it's not fun why bother with it?  Ski how you want and on the gear you want.  As long as you are safe and in control nobody else should care!

post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

I actually no longer care how people are making their turns unless they have paid for a lesson from me or asked me for help.  The real purpose of skiing is as a recreational activity for most people.  If they are safe and having fun everybody wins.  Personally I have found that I get more satisfaction and enjoyment from skiing well so I am always trying to improve.  Skiing with more effective movements allows me to keep pushing towards skiing faster on more interesting terrain.  Skiing is an expensive pain in the ass.  If it's not fun why bother with it?  Ski how you want and on the gear you want.  As long as you are safe and in control nobody else should care!

yea this is basically what everyone goes through in golf.

A sure mark of a beginner golfer is they just love to give advice.  

 

Looks like it is the same in other sports.

The more advanced golfers will gently remind a beginner that it is actually a formal rule that giving advice is not allowed when they're not interested in hearing about a guy's thoughts on his swing.  

 

Although it was not the only intention of the rule, the specific interpretations include giving of golf tips, and I like to think that the golf stewards did this because advice-giving becomes so annoying they had to actually ban it.

post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

I actually no longer care how people are making their turns unless they have paid for a lesson from me or asked me for help.  The real purpose of skiing is as a recreational activity for most people.  If they are safe and having fun everybody wins.  Personally I have found that I get more satisfaction and enjoyment from skiing well so I am always trying to improve.  Skiing with more effective movements allows me to keep pushing towards skiing faster on more interesting terrain.  Skiing is an expensive pain in the ass.  If it's not fun why bother with it?  Ski how you want and on the gear you want.  As long as you are safe and in control nobody else should care!

 

 

Yes, Yes and Yes.   I too work on my skiing but first is having fun.  At 73 yrs I do realize that I am not going to win any World Cups races, only will maybe occasionally make a perfect turn, do not go out and ski tapioca powder and really strive to have a smile day.  Well put tpj!

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