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# Why do racers lift the outside ski? - Page 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Skis in the air:

Skis rotating in the air:

Skis rotating more in the air:

Landing after rotation:

Skis go in the air and rotate ~25 degrees representing a pivot entry.  Evidence of the skis in the air include seeing space under the skis and lack of snow spray.  Once the spray disappears the skis are in the air, when the spray reappears the skis are back on the ground.  There can be no carve turns in the air, therefore it's manual rotation for 25 degrees, not carving.  Therefore, this turn is not arc to arc carving.

What you should be comparing is the direction of the CoM compared to the direction of the skis during the landing/engagement. What the skis do in the air is not so relevant.

(This does not express an opinion whether this entry is pivoted or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

What you should be comparing is the direction of the CoM compared to the direction of the skis during the landing/engagement. What the skis do in the air is not so relevant.

(This does not express an opinion whether this entry is pivoted or not)

Is he twisting his skis in transition?  Yes, so it's not arc to arc carving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Is he twisting his skis in transition?  Yes, so it's not arc to arc carving.

So if the skis are skimming the surface making a track it is carving, but if it is a few centimeters higher it is not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

So if the skis are skimming the surface making a track it is carving, but if it is a few centimeters higher it is not?

Applying rotary force to twist the skis while they are on the ground or in the air is not carving.  The reason I am pointing out that the skis are in the air is because it's indisputable that the skis are twisting because of rotary force.  If someone is making a  90 degree turn, then 25 degrees just by twisting the skis accounts for almost a third of the turn by rotary force.  In arc to arc carving all 90 degrees of the turn would result from carving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

So, to clarify for the gentle reader, you call this slo-mo turn a pivoted turn or a turn with a pivoted entry, where the pivoting of the new outside ski starts where exactly?

Skis in the air:

Skis rotating in the air:

Skis rotating more in the air:

Landing after rotation:

Skis go in the air and rotate ~25 degrees representing a pivot entry.  Evidence of the skis in the air include seeing space under the skis and lack of snow spray.  Once the spray disappears the skis are in the air, when the spray reappears the skis are back on the ground.  There can be no carve turns in the air, therefore it's manual rotation for 25 degrees, not carving.  Therefore, this turn is not arc to arc carving.

...I am still in shock at you patiently documenting Ted's patient floating through transition... I will explain why you see this and why it's not what you think it is when I have some time, between tuning a gazillion skis for the weekend's races and other stuff...

It will be a lot for you to take in, so it will be in bite-sized chunks. First off... you do understand that Ted is floating for a few ski lenghts there, right? When's the last time you flew a couple ski lengths in the middle of a GS turn without throwing the skis sideways? Not gliding... but flying...?

Edited by razie - 2/4/16 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...I am still in shock at you patiently documenting Ted's patient floating through transition... I will explain why you see this and why it's not what you think it is when I have some time, between tuning a gazillion skis for the weekend's races and other stuff...

It will be a lot for you to take in, so it will be in bite-sized chunks. First off... you do understand that Ted is floating for a few ski lenghts there, right? When's the last time you flew a couple ski lengths in the middle of a GS turn without throwing the skis sideways? Not gliding... but flying...?

I'm shocked how insulting you can be just from discussing how the video shows a different transition type than Ted's description.  It's nothing to get all upset about.  Pivot entries are great.  Arc to arc carving is great.  Each have their use.  And any given run, Ted will use both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...I am still in shock at you patiently documenting Ted's patient floating through transition... I will explain why you see this and why it's not what you think it is when I have some time, between tuning a gazillion skis for the weekend's races and other stuff...

It will be a lot for you to take in, so it will be in bite-sized chunks. First off... you do understand that Ted is floating for a few ski lenghts there, right? When's the last time you flew a couple ski lengths in the middle of a GS turn without throwing the skis sideways? Not gliding... but flying...?

I'm shocked how insulting you can be just from discussing how the video shows a different transition type than Ted's description.  It's nothing to get all upset about.  Pivot entries are great.  Arc to arc carving is great.  Each have their use.  And any given run, Ted will use both.

There really is a lot to what Ted is doing there, which you simplified to a "pivot entry". Of course they are useful, but if that was all it took to ski like Ted, we'd all be flying down WC runs and winning, by twisting our flat skis.

You'll see that Ted does exactly what he says... and that's not a pivot turn... but it is a lot of elements and the first element is to understand that he is floating for a few ski lengths. Not briefly, but for a few ski lenghts.

The second is to recognize that he is very patient... throughout this entire floating phase, he is not pushing into the skis one bit and you I think acknowledged this. He is extremely patient and waiting form your first frame to the last frame, maybe 3 ski lengths, before thinking about pushing. He is eventually pushing early, just like he says, just not early as you understood it.

The third was... if you ever floated like that in the middle of a GS turn, you'd know how hard it is to maintain the body and skis going in their different directions, for soooooo long, 3 ski lengths, without the entire thing unwinding and going each-every way. That is an awesome performance right there in front of us...

Edited by razie - 2/4/16 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

There really is a lot to what Ted is doing there, which you simplified to a "pivot entry". Of course they are useful, but if that was all it took to ski like Ted, we'd all be flying down WC runs and winning, by twisting our flat skis.

You'll see that Ted does exactly what he says... and that's not a pivot turn... but it is a lot of elements and the first element is to understand that he is floating for a few ski lengths. Not briefly, but for a few ski lenghts.

The second is to recognize that he is very patient... throughout this entire floating phase, he is not pushing into the skis one bit and you I think acknowledged this. He is extremely patient and waiting form your first frame to the last frame, maybe 3 ski lengths, before thinking about pushing. He is eventually pushing early, just like he says, just not early as you understood it.

The third was... if you ever floated like that in the middle of a GS turn, you'd know how hard it is to maintain the body and skis going in their different directions, for soooooo long, 3 ski lengths, without the entire thing unwinding and going each-every way. That is an awesome performance right there in front of us...

In his description, he says he steps to the new ski very early when it's still on the LTE. In the video, he steps on it after it's on the BTE and rotated 25 degrees. You can tell based on seeing snow spray and space under the old inside ski. His description matches the language of other coaches talking about arc to arc carving. I do find it odd that arc to arc carving gets so much publicity when pivots are extensively used. I think it's what the public wants to hear. People love carve turns. Stepping to the new ski while on LTE and pushing yourself downhill is not equal to unweighting, rotating the ski, and then loading it on BTE.

Did Ted produce this video too? It's formatted exactly the same. You know why? Because it's the same people on the credits. It's a formula. Insert athlete voice here. Narrator there. Music. They aren't skiing experts and skating experts and ....which is why they didn't get the turn to match his narrative. They are just journalist covering sports stories interviewing athletes.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/olympics/100000002711458/on-short-track-speedskating.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

In his description, he says he steps to the new ski very early when it's still on the LTE. In the video, he steps on it after it's on the BTE and rotated 25 degrees. You can tell based on seeing snow spray and space under the old inside ski. His description matches the language of other coaches talking about arc to arc carving. I do find it odd that arc to arc carving gets so much publicity when pivots are extensively used. I think it's what the public wants to hear. People love carve turns. Stepping to the new ski while on LTE and pushing yourself downhill is not equal to unweighting, rotating the ski, and then loading it on BTE.

...many misunderstandings. I'll just take the first one for now.

Ted does exactly what he says he does - but it's hard to see perhaps, if you don't fully understand the bio-mechanics of this turn.

He steps on the new ski early, while it is still on the LTE, and that's exactly what he does.

It's here:

It's easy to miss this very important element of this turn - some say it's the defining moment of the turn. As you can see, he steps on it early, on the new outside ski, while its still on the LTE, not all the way across the hill, where you think he did, on the BTE.

I'll clarify the other bits as I have time. You can see why I said that there are a lot of things for you to see and understand here... before you declare that Ted shows us pivoted turns and lies to us... he does neither! He does exactly what he says and more, while being awesome !

Edited by razie - 2/4/16 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...many misunderstandings. I'll just take the first one for now.

Ted does exactly what he says he does - but it's hard to see perhaps, if you don't fully understand the bio-mechanics of this turn.

He steps on the new ski early, while it is still on the LTE, and that's exactly what he does.

It's here:

It's easy to miss this very important element of this turn - some say it's the defining moment of the turn. As you can see, he steps on it early, on the new outside ski, while its still on the LTE, not all the way across the hill, where you think he did, on the BTE.

I'll clarify the other bits as I have time. You can see why I said that there are a lot of things for you to see and understand here... before you declare that Ted shows us pivoted turns and lies to us... he does neither! He does exactly what he says and more, while being awesome !

You are so condescending, Razie. So he steps on it and then immediately becomes weightless and pushes himself downhill. That's pointless and impossible. The only one lying is you pretending to be some great expert. I've had enough of it. You may have your last insult, and then we can call it quits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Applying rotary force to twist the skis while they are on the ground or in the air is not carving.  The reason I am pointing out that the skis are in the air is because it's indisputable that the skis are twisting because of rotary force.  If someone is making a  90 degree turn, then 25 degrees just by twisting the skis accounts for almost a third of the turn by rotary force.  In arc to arc carving all 90 degrees of the turn would result from carving.

IMO arc to arc and carving is not the same thing, but you seem to mix them like they are.

Similarly you seem to equate a pivoted ski with a pivoted entry.

So in your opinion any light or floating transition is a pivot entry?

With you definition, how would you differentiate two turns where in one the ski is engaged in the snow during transition and in the other it is not, but they move with the exact same angles? How do you know which one is carving and which one is not?

Note that I have not expressed an opinion whether the turn in question has a pivot entry or not. There is no point in discussing it if the terminology is not set. I'm just trying to point out that the skis pointing angle from release to when it is engaged again is not a good measure. See e.g. "Renshaw &Mote (1989), a model for the turning snow ski"

Quote:

Originally Posted by razie

He steps on the new ski early, while it is still on the LTE, and that's exactly what he does.

It's here:

Don't you think it is before that? This is close to the end of the LTE push IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Quote:

Originally Posted by razie

He steps on the new ski early, while it is still on the LTE, and that's exactly what he does.

It's here:

Don't you think it is before that? This is close to the end of the LTE push IMO.

It's fast - hard to get a good frame and that's the one that I had already... the old outside ski is already coming off the snow, so the transfer was already complete, yes.

Edited by razie - 2/5/16 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...many misunderstandings. I'll just take the first one for now.

Ted does exactly what he says he does - but it's hard to see perhaps, if you don't fully understand the bio-mechanics of this turn.

He steps on the new ski early, while it is still on the LTE, and that's exactly what he does.

It's here:

It's easy to miss this very important element of this turn - some say it's the defining moment of the turn. As you can see, he steps on it early, on the new outside ski, while its still on the LTE, not all the way across the hill, where you think he did, on the BTE.

I'll clarify the other bits as I have time. You can see why I said that there are a lot of things for you to see and understand here... before you declare that Ted shows us pivoted turns and lies to us... he does neither! He does exactly what he says and more, while being awesome !

You are so condescending, Razie. So he steps on it and then immediately becomes weightless and pushes himself downhill. That's pointless and impossible. The only one lying is you pretending to be some great expert. I've had enough of it. You may have your last insult, and then we can call it quits.

Sorry for maybe coming across as condescending - but there really is a lot to this turn that you seem to be missing when you insist on reducing it all to "a pivot entry".

The bold part is exactly what happens and actually Tog explained in the other thread - it is a really cool sequence of actions and reactions...

I'm not sure that I'm pretending to be an expert... I'm explaining why some of your assertions are false and you're certainly welcome to disagree with the snapshots above or my interpretation of them... but it seems pretty clear to me or anyone that he has just stepped on his LTE in this frame above... which you asserted he says but doesn't show... and now say that it's impossible, just as we're looking at it... yes, he's pushing himself down the hill later, after building enough angles to be pointing down the hill... we can get there as well... again, there really is a lot to this turn!

Edited by razie - 2/5/16 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...

You'll see that Ted does exactly what he says... and that's not a pivot turn... but it is a lot of elements and the first element is to understand that he is floating for a few ski lengths. Not briefly, but for a few ski lenghts....

In the real world, TE's locution,

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

...Pivot entries are great [emphasis added].  Arc to arc carving is great.  Each have their use.  And any given run, Ted will use both.

is economical, in wide use, and without controversy except as regards skills development emphases in young-uns.

The disconnect here reminds of the time Razie said he wanted to beat up Vonn's early coach for the poor job he did, and that he wished Vonn had been coached as a kid by an Austrian instead (who could have given her skills for SL and GS, by implication).  Obviously, in the real world, not only was Vonn's early coach of Austrian origin, and one of the most successful coaches in US history, but also  speed events don't start until later in a kid's racing career...and also Vonn not only excelled in slalom as a girl, but also she has won in SL on the WC...solely my personal opinion, but anyone with WC slalom wins probably is ok in the technique area.

For passive readers, the point to bear in mind is that these disconnects can happen on the web, whatever the reasons.  They don't take away the real-world excellence in slalom displayed by Vonn, and in this case they don't turn a pivot entry into something else.

Some of the posters here pursue a movement pattern that uses pivot entries to help them get their skis around as their focus on retraction turns can leave them backseat, and the default pivot helps address that issue.  It's a fine way to ski, but they don't like the term pivot.  That also is fine, but it's good for passive readers to note that, in the real world, if they want to communicate clearly and economically what these movement patterns are when talking to other skiers, that if they see a skier accomplish roughly a third of the total turn in the air, that's a pivot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

Sorry for maybe coming across as condescending - but there really is a lot to this turn that you seem to be missing when you insist on reducing it all to "a pivot entry".

The bold part is exactly what happens and actually Tog explained in the other thread - it is a really cool sequence of actions and reactions...

I'm not sure that I'm pretending to be an expert... I'm explaining why some of your assertions are false and you're certainly welcome to disagree with the snapshots above or my interpretation of them... but it seems pretty clear to me or anyone that he has just stepped on his LTE in this frame above... which you asserted he says but doesn't show... and now say that it's impossible, just as we're looking at it... yes, he's pushing himself down the hill later, after building enough angles to be pointing down the hill... we can get there as well... again, there really is a lot to this turn!

Here’s another video by Phil McNichol that you guys can completely misunderstand, mess up the definitions, and dismiss in order to maintain your rigid viewpoint that is in opposition to top level race coaches.  A good bit of what he is saying is with language that’s directly contradicting quite a number of  positions from this particular group here on epic.

“what you want to be looking for is as close to a full arc or pressure starting as soon as possible, another way to look at it, has the ski turned before it really bites and bends.”  What you need to be doing as you start to roll this knee in and drive your hip forward, in this part of the turn in the top part of the turn you’re going to need to get a little more push and pressure so the ski carves a little bit more there.”  “If you let yourself get too light you can’t get heavy again on this foot quick enough to bend it at the top of the turn.”

I completely understand that in top level racing the pivot entry will be used quite a bit more, but don’t misconstrue that fact with redefining good arc to arc carving.  Shuckaduck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

...

You'll see that Ted does exactly what he says... and that's not a pivot turn... but it is a lot of elements and the first element is to understand that he is floating for a few ski lengths. Not briefly, but for a few ski lenghts....

In the real world, TE's locution,

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

...Pivot entries are great [emphasis added].  Arc to arc carving is great.  Each have their use.  And any given run, Ted will use both.

oh the joys of CT's posts and personal attacks and stuff... in the real real world, TE's post describing Ted's turn was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Ted's slow motion turn in the New York Times video with this video and see that it is a pivot turn.  Being weightless helps implement the pivot turn because it's easier to rotate the skis in the air.  When there's very little space the racer will use a pivot turn and be weightless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

oh the joys of CT's posts and personal attacks and stuff... in the real real world, TE's post describing Ted's turn was:

To be clear, I wasn't personally attacking TE in the least when I quoted him.  I agree with him, and more fully note that he is communicating with a technical language in wide use by people involved in skiing.  "Pivot entries" as a term isn't controversial, isn't disparaging, in the real world.

Likewise, my noting that kids don't start out focussing on speed events, or that Vonn has won on the WC in slalom, or that her coach was of Austrian origin, isn't in the least controversial in the real world.  If someone who didn't know those things finds it uncomfortable that those real-world facts are stated on a skiing forum, well, that is not indicative of there being a problem with those facts being said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Some of the posters here pursue a movement pattern that uses pivot entries to help them get their skis around as their focus on retraction turns can leave them backseat, and the default pivot helps address that issue.  It's a fine way to ski, but they don't like the term pivot.

To which movement pattern are you referring that uses pivot entries to help get the skis around?

Here we go again!

He is not pushing himself downhill on the LTE of the uphill ski. The push doesn't come until later,  when he rolls it to the BTE.

You can't push your self downhill off the LTE of the uphill ski

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman

Here we go again!

He is not pushing himself downhill on the LTE of the uphill ski. The push doesn't come until later,  when he rolls it to the BTE.

You can't push your self downhill off the LTE of the uphill ski

I don't think Razie said that. Did I miss when he said that, or did someone else say it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacmantwoskis

I don't think Razie said that. Did I miss when he said that, or did someone else say it?
You are so condescending, Razie. So he steps on it and then immediately becomes weightless and pushes himself downhill. That's pointless and impossible. The only one lying is you pretending to be some great expert. I've had enough of it. You may have your last insult, and then we can call it quits.

Sorry for maybe coming across as condescending - but there really is a lot to this turn that you seem to be missing when you insist on reducing it all to "a pivot entry".

RAZIE SAID : "The bold part is exactly what happens and actually Tog explained in the other thread" - it is a really cool sequence of actions and reactions...

And you don't become weightless stepping onto the LTE and aligning your uphill hip over the uphill ski

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman

Sorry for maybe coming across as condescending - but there really is a lot to this turn that you seem to be missing when you insist on reducing it all to "a pivot entry".

RAZIE SAID : "The bold part is exactly what happens and actually Tog explained in the other thread" - it is a really cool sequence of actions and reactions...

And you don't become weightless stepping onto the LTE and aligning your uphill hip over the uphill ski

Razie seemed to only be referring to the bold part and not the bit about pushing off. If you disagree about the weightless part, that's fine; however, if you disagree with Razie with respect to something he never claimed, that doesn't make any sense.

OK fair enough. But he didn't deny it either.

You are not weightless when you are up on the LTE of the uphill ski before edge change.

Raize did make-fun of a flat ski but talked about a three ski float length.

If the tail is off the ground and the tip is turning, it's a pivot with fore pressure. What matters is when and WHERE you direct pressure. Every turn may be a little different in gates. What in the world is the argument here?
Edited by Tip Ripply - 2/5/16 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Some of the posters here pursue a movement pattern that uses pivot entries to help them get their skis around as their focus on retraction turns can leave them backseat, and the default pivot helps address that issue.  It's a fine way to ski, but they don't like the term pivot.  That also is fine, but it's good for passive readers to note that, in the real world, if they want to communicate clearly and economically what these movement patterns are when talking to other skiers, that if they see a skier accomplish roughly a third of the total turn in the air, that's a pivot.

Is a "pivot" something that is caused by actively turning the skis, or do the skis "pivot" as a result of preceding non-rotary inputs of the skier?
Edited by Pacmantwoskis - 2/6/16 at 12:05pm

You guys need a ski off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer

Here’s another video by Phil McNichol that you guys can completely misunderstand, mess up the definitions, and dismiss in order to maintain your rigid viewpoint that is in opposition to top level race coaches.  A good bit of what he is saying is with language that’s directly contradicting quite a number of  positions from this particular group here on epic.

“what you want to be looking for is as close to a full arc or pressure starting as soon as possible, another way to look at it, has the ski turned before it really bites and bends.”  What you need to be doing as you start to roll this knee in and drive your hip forward, in this part of the turn in the top part of the turn you’re going to need to get a little more push and pressure so the ski carves a little bit more there.”  “If you let yourself get too light you can’t get heavy again on this foot quick enough to bend it at the top of the turn.”

I completely understand that in top level racing the pivot entry will be used quite a bit more, but don’t misconstrue that fact with redefining good arc to arc carving.  Shuckaduck!

Arguing definitions/terminology is your thing. But you don't seem to understand that running tight slalom gates on a short pogo-stick ski isn't the same as running gs gates on a 195cm ski with 35M radius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahski

Arguing definitions/terminology is your thing. But you don't seem to understand that running tight slalom gates on a short pogo-stick ski isn't the same as running gs gates on a 195cm ski with 35M radius.

I understand things just fine. I hate arguing definitions and try to avoid it as much as possible. I understand completely that a 35m ski often requires more rotary, and I'm a huge fan of rotary. So, I'm not sure what your problem is, but I don't think you're following the conversation very well. You have to read many posts in several particular threads which I wouldn't recommend to anyone.
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