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Why do racers lift the outside ski? - Page 6  

post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Like I said - no torque to the skis needed to reposition the skis... it's just the biomechanics of edging, as I explained already... our body's segments re-arranging due to simple movements of the turn like edging - which have nothing to do with applying torque to or twisting the skis... it is simply not the same as rotary, but a different category.

 

 

There's always a torque required to initiate rotation of the skis.  You just have to figure out where that torque is coming from.  Either, the skier does it through counter rotation, or the snow pushes back against one part of the ski more than another part.  This argument of passive pivoting is possible when the skis are on the snow, but not in the air.  Once you go in the air, only the skier can initiate a rotation of the skis by applying a torque.  There's no evidence of building up angular momentum before he goes into the air.  Those skis are going straight until they are airborne.  Then when they are in the air they rotate, which can only be done by the skier applying a torque.  For this to be all passive you would have to see rotation on the snow in the correct direction before going into the air.  

 

It may be that some of your biomechanical blah blah blah is just your way of describing how the skier applies torque to the ski in the air.  That's ok, but rotation in the air is an active pivot no matter which muscle groups are used to apply the torque.

 

I didn't want to get into this question in the first place, because I knew it would be like walking through mud, so I'm going to leave it here.

post #152 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post

There's always a torque required to initiate rotation of the skis.  You just have to figure out where that torque is coming from.  Either, the skier does it through counter rotation, or the snow pushes back against one part of the ski more than another part.  This argument of passive pivoting is possible when the skis are on the snow, but not in the air.  Once you go in the air, only the skier can initiate a rotation of the skis by applying a torque.  There's no evidence of building up angular momentum before he goes into the air.  Those skis are going straight until they are airborne.  Then when they are in the air they rotate, which can only be done by the skier applying a torque.  For this to be all passive you would have to see rotation on the snow in the correct direction before going into the air.  

It may be that some of your biomechanical blah blah blah is just your way of describing how the skier applies torque to the ski in the air.  That's ok, but rotation in the air is an active pivot no matter which muscle groups are used to apply the torque.

I didn't want to get into this question in the first place, because I knew it would be like walking through mud, so I'm going to leave it here.

Does it matter that the skiers body is traveling along a different path than the skis prior to becoming airborne? Would that introduce the rotation?
post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacmantwoskis View Post


If something occurs in the real world, but a theoretical explanation says that it's not possible. Which is flawed, the real world or the theory? I would like to know exactly what is happening to cause the need to manage and prevent the induced rotation. The transition can provide more than enough to pop the skis into the next turn. It happens, and great skiers know how to time the release and manage the forces to get the skis to come around without resorting to pivoting/twisting.
Does it matter that the skiers body is traveling along a different path than the skis prior to becoming airborne? Would that introduce the rotation?

In that New York Times video, you can see the skis twisting relative to the upper body, so it's about as basic of a twist that you can get.  But, there are different ways to twist.  You can start your upper body twisting, then jump, then pull along the lower body in the air.  Or the upper body could have existing angular momentum from the turn relative to the skis, so that if you go in the air at the right time, it can pull along the lower body, so that both would spin together in the air.  Bottom line though, is that the upper body must apply a torque to the lower body.  This doesn't mean that the upper body has to rotate back the opposite direction, it can mean that the upper body just doesn't rotate the way it was going quite as much as it would have.  So, I think there's a range of experiences that you can have, but none of it is carving when you are in the air.  The broad definition for all of it would be a pivot, but that word seems to carry lots of negative connotation.

post #154 of 171

​Quote:

Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 
This is where we cue Jamt with some nonsense to back you up from someone that should know better, and the circle of idiocy is complete, your group can save face and continue on with your ignorant bliss....

 

Just curious which posters below, in your mind, are ignorant of basic ski biomechanics as well as not recognizing the ski technique that they are looking at? Also curious why you are allowed to spew this kind of crap in this forum?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post


 Your biomechanical nonsense is completely irrelevant. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 

It may be that some of your biomechanical blah blah blah

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 
 It's not carving the top of the turn

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post

 

You can compare Ted's slow motion turn in the New York Times video with this video and see that it is a pivot turn.  

[...]

As Ted describes in the video ... "I can start pushing on the ski really early when it's working against gravity".."you're pushing yourself down the hill in a way."  This description which unfortunately is not what you see in the New York Times video accelerates the skier, but keeps pressure because of pushing.

post #155 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

What can I say Razie, after 4 or 5 of your offensive posts, I get a little ticked off and start dishing it back to you.

post #156 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

What can I say Razie, after 4 or 5 of your offensive posts, I get a little ticked off and start dishing it back to you.


there is a "report" feature if any of my posts are offensive.

post #157 of 171

Here is the commonly accepted definition of pivoting and pivot turns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivot_turn_(skiing)

 

Basically twisting a flat ski in place (or almost in place) is pivoting, with the purpose of making a shorter turn than the carved radius would allow. As you or anyone can notice, in Ted's transitions, the ski redirects slightly over a distance of over 3 skis lengths. If he was carving it, it would have turned even more over the same distance. In fact he is keeping it from turning even while on edge !!! ... patiently floating and waiting for the right time...

 

On your own recognition, pivoted entries are required where there isn't time or radius to make a carved turn. This is so not the case... even the redirection is immaterial to the turn itself, does not change either the entry point or the carved radius and he had plenty of time to do whatever he might have wanted.

 

He has zero need to pivot the skis, as he is not out of time and not in need of line nor radius, and that's not a pivot entry: the skis is stable and running straight for a while before "landing". Again, not a pivot entry.

 

I see you stopped calling it a "pivot turn"... however, continuing to call this awesome carved turn a "pivot entry" turn is disingenuous.

 

 

In case you missed it, this thread was on the subject of the release. Not pivots. Which you should feel free to discuss in other threads. Your insistence at derailing this thread earned you a spot on my ignore list.


Edited by razie - 2/8/16 at 2:05pm
post #158 of 171

Back to the subject: let's take the Flamingo Royal...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Now that we're past this weird "Ted's just pivoting" episode, due to some poster's lack of understanding of basic rotary and edging biomechanics, we can go back to the subject: 

 

 

Did someone relate this to tipping yet?

post #159 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


At around 1:03-1:04 he lifts and begins tipping the soon-to-be inside ski.
post #160 of 171

I agree... resulting in the awesome gazelle flamingo at 1:05 (he's behind the flags before)... where he still maintains the strong coiled/counteracted relationship to the skis, not letting the feet unwind, which is terrifingly awesome given his float...

 

 

the question would be - why was the lifting required for tipping? was is required or does it facilitate tipping in any way? is tipping just the continuation of the untipping off-edge that accompanied the release?

post #161 of 171

Go out and carve some GS turns trying to make your transition as fast as possible.

Do it on skis with very little base bevel.

You will notice it is much safer to float that ski until the new ski is on edge then to engage the floated ski for your carve.

That's why I do it.

It makes for faster, safer transitions.

post #162 of 171
Nobody is talking about a stivot. His tip is turning and the tail is off the ground. It was very minimal, but it did happen. So Razie, please stop telling people that they are blind
post #163 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Nobody is talking about a stivot. His tip is turning and the tail is off the ground. It was very minimal, but it did happen. So Razie, please stop telling people that they are blind

  This is again similar to Razie saying he wants to beat up Vonn's childhood coach because he did a poor job teaching technique, and should have been Austrian.

 

I accept that Razie may not be able to recognize a pivot, just as he did not recognize who Vonn's coach was, that he was Austrian in origin, that Vonn had excelled in SL including WC wins, and that kiddos don't start out doing speed events.  I.e. Razie may not have the base of experience needed to interpret any of this stuff.

 

But, a pivot is a pivot.  If the skis leave the snow, then accomplish about a third of the turn in the air, then by definition there was a pivot.  Ain't no way that can be called carving, unless someone wants to make some odd (and false) claim that wind resistance itself deflected the skis.  

 

Razie and his crew don't want to acknowledge the pivots in their skiing, which they often rely on.  We all get that.  But, that doesn't change the way racers ski.  It's good to keep discussion of actual race technique -- not "look at me" video technique and the like -- grounded in the real world, including physics.  

post #164 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacmantwoskis View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post


Why do you have to keep saying it's so limiting or such an insult to call it a pivot entry?  Pivots are used all over the place.  You don't have to look down on Ted for doing a pivot entry.  The only insults being made to Ted are the one's coming from you that try to diminish the value of that turn just because it's a pivot entry.  It's an excellent turn, but it's not arc to arc carving.  Arc to arc carving has no place in that turn at that speed.

Are you saying that Ted's skis turn in the air because he is twisting or rotating his legs while airborne?
Here we go again. It doesn't matter if an alien redirected the skis in the air while light. If there's a direction change it's a pivot. Ted pivots all over the place. What's the big deal? At Sochi the replay had him executing a square turn- full on pivot with skis at right angles to the fall line, then hooking up and shooting under the gate. That after the announcers were blabbing about his "round turns". ( see vid below for very similar type turn at 1:47)

The NY times turn in question seems to have a fair amount of anticipation/coiling before release. That could account for the pivot en plein air.

Razie, if your going to say I explained something then it's best to quote what I explained. I certainly haven't endorsed the majority of your pov. Ted now has apparently one type of turn. The one filmed by the NY Times. Maybe watch a whole race. Here's one from 2013 with everything in it including a full on 90 deg pivot turn. Or "turn entry" if it makes one feel better. (1:47 in slo mo)
http://youtu.be/BYsYE9wYh0k

Think about "the new skis". What do you think the sidecuts of the "old skis" were? A lot more than 35 m.
post #165 of 171
Just to dim the flames a little...
I think the amount of active femur steering is somewhat minimal as well. A lot of it is winding up the lower against the upper in anticipation and finding the new ski with good timing as that happens. It doesn't have to be steered with active femur rotation - the rotation can be passive from other mechanics. Furthermore, do not confuse a stivot with a pivot. They can be different. Arc to arc, pivots, stivot and everything else is fair game to go FAST.

If you get on it early, you have options. Period.
post #166 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Nobody is talking about a stivot. His tip is turning and the tail is off the ground. It was very minimal, but it did happen. So Razie, please stop telling people that they are blind

 

no... not talking about a stivot... they're talking about that being a hole pivot turn... do you agree with that being a pivot turn? or do you think it's uhh... not viewed in the best light, if characterized as such?

post #167 of 171

@Tog what is unclear about me saying you explained? It seems very specific to me... as actually specifying quite clearly that you explained just the bold part there... 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by razie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
 
You are so condescending, Razie. So he steps on it and then immediately becomes weightless and pushes himself downhill. That's pointless and impossible. The only one lying is you pretending to be some great expert. I've had enough of it. You may have your last insult, and then we can call it quits.

Sorry for maybe coming across as condescending - but there really is a lot to this turn that you seem to be missing when you insist on reducing it all to "a pivot entry".

 

The bold part is exactly what happens and actually Tog explained in the other thread - it is a really cool sequence of actions and reactions...

 

I'm not sure that I'm pretending to be an expert... I'm explaining why some of your assertions are false and you're certainly welcome to disagree with the snapshots above or my interpretation of them... but it seems pretty clear to me or anyone that he has just stepped on his LTE in this frame above... which you asserted he says but doesn't show... and now say that it's impossible, just as we're looking at it... yes, he's pushing himself down the hill later, after building enough angles to be pointing down the hill... we can get there as well... again, there really is a lot to this turn!

 

How come you group come out of the wood work immediately as we start discussing serious technique, just to obviously throw of this discussion? Either of you have anything to say on the actual technical subject? Or you just see unexplained pivots everywhere?

 

@CTKook has nothing to say on technical aspects, as usual, just... uhh I don't know what he's up to again...?

post #168 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Nobody is talking about a stivot. His tip is turning and the tail is off the ground. It was very minimal, but it did happen. So Razie, please stop telling people that they are blind

no... not talking about a stivot... they're talking about that being a hole pivot turn... do you agree with that being a pivot turn? or do you think it's uhh... not viewed in the best light, if characterized as such?
Who cares if it had a pivot in it?
Why is it such a big deal?
Ted's just fine. That should be obvious.
They only care about time.
post #169 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Nobody is talking about a stivot. His tip is turning and the tail is off the ground. It was very minimal, but it did happen. So Razie, please stop telling people that they are blind

no... not talking about a stivot... they're talking about that being a hole pivot turn... do you agree with that being a pivot turn? or do you think it's uhh... not viewed in the best light, if characterized as such?
Who cares if it had a pivot in it?
Why is it such a big deal?
Ted's just fine. That should be obvious.
They only care about time.

 

I don't really care actually about that little redirection, if any, as I'm sure Ted doesn't either. That's was the point - if you follow my arguments there, that the redirection, if any, is normal and minimal and does not affect the turn... what I took an issue with was calling that "a pivot turn" ... but if you agree apparently with TE that this turn should be thus characterized as "pivot turn" then that's certainly your prerogative.

 

So, @Tog and @TheEngineer and @TipRiply agree that this turn is how a pivot turn looks like:

 

 

@CTKook as usual offers nothing on technique, just some nonsense containing my handle here and there... in some form of personal attack 

 

... just to summarize and clarify what this sudden flurry of activity actually means... 

post #170 of 171

This thread is temporarily being locked while it is reviewed by the moderators. 

post #171 of 171

And now the thread is permanently locked.

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