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# Carving problems - Page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR

YM  While I understand and agree with the condition you are addressing,  I interpret your first sentence as " folks do not ALIGN their COM WITH the outside ski"

I only have two problems with the term "counter balance" and that are the words "counter" and "balance".

"Counter" is a word that is nebulous at best and "balance"infers there is a force to balance against. As I have opined, skiing requires we balance against two forces, gravity and centripetal. We angulate when gravity is the predominant force and we introduce inclination via shortening of the inside leg to build centripetal beyond what angulation  will permit.

Ice is a highly critical surface condition where maintaining gravitational balance is on the mind of many so I can understand your "Honest" comment.

I just looked up the definition of counterbalance.  According to Webster and others, counterbalancing "is to have an opposite effect that is opposite but equal to something" -"to balance by being opposite".  I find this term to be more descriptive than others in use including the term angulation. " You can't take a bath in the word water".  And as always it is so much easier to demonstrate than to describe an action.   Call it what you will, most skiers lack the appropriate skills to arc turns on very hard snow.  This lack of ability begins with a lack of a clear understanding of how this task is accomplished.   When the snow is soft and the ski penetrates the surface a substantial amount the balancing demands diminish.  When the surface is ice and only a small portion of the skis edge is in contact with the surface at any one time and edge penetration is minimal, the balancing demands  are very high.  YM

Wow guys, definitions debates never end well. Just hopin we can exercise some restraint considering we are mostly on the same page here.

I would pose a question for YM here about tasks. While I agree with the premise of performing a task not being well understood, I feel it is often the task itself that is not clearly understood, thus that is the root problem. No skidding is a pretty simple objective but we often complicate the task with extra ideas. Not that we intentionally set out to add confusion for a student.
We just cannot help ourselves most the time.
Take the traverse I mentioned. Holding the ski base level creates a built in edge angle equal to the slope angle. Usually this is more than enough to hold as long as sufficient pressure is present. Granted in a traverse we are not trying to reduce the radius.
I watched a few of the JF videos and I noticed one thing among all of them. His upper Body was very quiet. He was just extending and shortening his legs to "swing" the ski around. Never forcing them or pivoting them. Just changing his leg lengths to put the ski on one side then as the ski pulls back due to the circular motion, he lets it and changes his leg lengths putting them on the opposite edge "swinging" them back to center. It was all very smooth and relaxed without any forced movements. Just letting the skis do theirs thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbat11700

I watched a few of the JF videos and I noticed one thing among all of them. His upper Body was very quiet. He was just extending and shortening his legs to "swing" the ski around. Never forcing them or pivoting them. Just changing his leg lengths to put the ski on one side then as the ski pulls back due to the circular motion, he lets it and changes his leg lengths putting them on the opposite edge "swinging" them back to center. It was all very smooth and relaxed without any forced movements. Just letting the skis do theirs thing.

At high level skiing you need to be working with your legs. From your waist down. Try to keep your upper body as calm as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbat11700

I watched a few of the JF videos and I noticed one thing among all of them. His upper Body was very quiet. He was just extending and shortening his legs to "swing" the ski around. Never forcing them or pivoting them. Just changing his leg lengths to put the ski on one side then as the ski pulls back due to the circular motion, he lets it and changes his leg lengths putting them on the opposite edge "swinging" them back to center. It was all very smooth and relaxed without any forced movements. Just letting the skis do theirs thing.

Makes it look easy doesn't he?  Take a moment to observe the shortening of his inside leg as the turn deepens.

TDK6 offers some good pithy advice above.

Here is something you might try to help you achieve a disciplined upper body. I cut and pasted it from another thread I inputted to and edited a bit.

"Skiers need to understand that there can be 20 to 30 highly influential pounds of mass in the arms and the effect on the COM is substantial.  High end skiers have the training and experience to use this arm mass to their advantage but most intermediates do not.

One drill I would like to recommend is to hold the poles horizontally out in front with hands about 6 inches apart and palms down.  Then, cross the hands and roll  the wrists to tuck the poles up into the arm pits.  This consolidates the arm mass at about elbow level and keeps it tight to the torso. I think that this would help the focus on the upper body discipline."

Try doing JF's separation thru the arch progression with the arms in this configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

At high level skiing you need to be working with your legs. From your waist down. Try to keep your upper body as calm as possible.

A calm upper body is actually doing some work to stay calm..  To maintain a quiet upper body while your legs dance requires that torso move in the opposite direction as the legs and the upper body must tip in proportion to the lifted edges.  Without this effort your upper body moves in the direction of the skis (rotation / or at least square) and the upper body inclines (banking) away from the lifted edges.   The idea that the upper body stays quiet gives no indication as to how this occurs.    YM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Wow guys, definitions debates never end well. Just hopin we can exercise some restraint considering we are mostly on the same page here.

Take the traverse I mentioned. Holding the ski base level creates a built in edge angle equal to the slope angle. Usually this is more than enough to hold as long as sufficient pressure is present. Granted in a traverse we are not trying to reduce the radius.

Yep, If I have learned anything from this forum is everyone's experience varies and everyone's interpretation and description  of their experience also varies. I have also learned that expectations from skiers vary  as well motives and desired outcomes  also vary.    Taversing a slope is only a small part of the icy skiing experience.    YM

Howdy campers

Been a while since Ive been in here.

What better place to start the day than a Carving thread LOL

Looks like everyone has taken a shot at it so Ill throw my opinion in.

Best tip I can give on starting the first turn is not to point skis downhill, there is no angular momentum to get them carving.

Instead start by traversing across the run first at a constant speed, then roll over both edges downhill and articulate hips and the tips will head down hill into the first turn with some angular momentum to get the edges set in the first turn, then you're doing it, just do another and another.

To start out do one turn and then ski back across the fall line and when composed do the next arc and back to across the hill at regulated speed.

Just ensures you don't over speed out of a turn and muck up the next one,

When you are getting it clean then try linking turns but until you can do one clean carved arc from traverse to travers the other way then hold off with linked ones or speed will get away from you and you'll be tossing the tails out to recover because its all happening to fast at first.

Because there is no checking or scraping there is no speed regulator when carving so to arrest and control speed into turns you need to run across the hill more to slow them between turns.

If you are not quick enough to link them then you are better off just running across the hill a bit longer till you get a bit quicker at sett5ing the next turn and that way you stay in control all the way down and not over speed.

Nothing gained by doing 2 turns and skidding out on the third, better to keep doing clean turns all the way and just run across the hill more between them to allow you more time till you're up to speed with it and can link them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman

I just looked up the definition of counterbalance.  According to Webster and others, counterbalancing "is to have an opposite effect that is opposite but equal to something" -"to balance by being opposite".  I find this term to be more descriptive than others in use including the term angulation. " You can't take a bath in the word water".  And as always it is so much easier to demonstrate than to describe an action.   Call it what you will, most skiers lack the appropriate skills to arc turns on very hard snow.  This lack of ability begins with a lack of a clear understanding of how this task is accomplished.   When the snow is soft and the ski penetrates the surface a substantial amount the balancing demands diminish.  When the surface is ice and only a small portion of the skis edge is in contact with the surface at any one time and edge penetration is minimal, the balancing demands  are very high.  YM

I find that hard snow is dependable and balancing on rail becomes more predictable than when on soft snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman

A calm upper body is actually doing some work to stay calm..  To maintain a quiet upper body while your legs dance requires that torso move in the opposite direction as the legs and the upper body must tip in proportion to the lifted edges.  Without this effort your upper body moves in the direction of the skis (rotation / or at least square) and the upper body inclines (banking) away from the lifted edges.   The idea that the upper body stays quiet gives no indication as to how this occurs.    YM

I find that "maintain a calm upper body" describes an outcome from the perspective of the observer, yes - not giving any specific instruction as to how to achieve it. I see many (including myself) that are convinced their upper bodies stay upright while in fact they have a big pendullum swing...

Also, many weird movements we may make with hands, shoulders, hips or head - we are not aware of...

This photo was taken yesterday by the wonderful Snowbasin picture people. Thanks to all the wonderful input given by all you wonderful people, carving is coming easier and easier.

Great so far.  Next, lighten the inside leg (left in that photo) while bending at the waist to the outside (angulate).  Tilt the pelvis and shoulders upward on the left.  Hold the left hand higher and more forward, the right more back.  Pull the left foot strongly back while rotating the hips & shoulders to the right (counter).  Counter helps one angulate, so do them both together right at the beginning of the turn and hold them all the way through the turn.  (Some say to ski into counter, for which there is no good biomechanical reason.)

Here's Anna Fenninger:

Legs close together--inside foot an inch from the outside knee.

Intention is to have much more weight on the outside ski.

Inside foot pulled back.

Inside foot tipped so the big toe edge is up off the snow.  Hip not pushed to the snow--but allowed to drop.  Knee not driven toward the snow.  Outside big toe not pressed into the snow.

Hips & shoulders rotated toward the outside of the turn.  Shoulders tilted toward the outside as much as possible.

Inside shoulder, arm, hand forward, outside shoulder, hand, arm back.

Your pole plant will be just a tap, just a twitch of the wrist, not an arm swing, never a body & arm swing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy

Great so far.  Next, lighten the inside leg (left in that photo) while bending at the waist to the outside (angulate).  Tilt the pelvis and shoulders upward on the left.  Hold the left hand higher and more forward, the right more back.  Pull the left foot strongly back while rotating the hips & shoulders to the right (counter).  Counter helps one angulate, so do them both together right at the beginning of the turn and hold them all the way through the turn.  (Some say to ski into counter, for which there is no good biomechanical reason.)

Here's Anna Fenninger:

Legs close together--inside foot an inch from the outside knee.

Intention is to have much more weight on the outside ski.

Inside foot pulled back.

Inside foot tipped so the big toe edge is up off the snow.  Hip not pushed to the snow--but allowed to drop.  Knee not driven toward the snow.  Outside big toe not pressed into the snow.

Hips & shoulders rotated toward the outside of the turn.  Shoulders tilted toward the outside as much as possible.

Inside shoulder, arm, hand forward, outside shoulder, hand, arm back.

Your pole plant will be just a tap, just a twitch of the wrist, not an arm swing, never a body & arm swing.

Great post. For clarification, what do you mean by "Outside big toe not pressed into the snow"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy

Great so far.  Next, lighten the inside leg (left in that photo) while bending at the waist to the outside (angulate).  Tilt the pelvis and shoulders upward on the left.  Hold the left hand higher and more forward, the right more back.  Pull the left foot strongly back while rotating the hips & shoulders to the right (counter).  Counter helps one angulate, so do them both together right at the beginning of the turn and hold them all the way through the turn.  (Some say to ski into counter, for which there is no good biomechanical reason.)

Here's Anna Fenninger:

Legs close together--inside foot an inch from the outside knee.

Intention is to have much more weight on the outside ski.

Inside foot pulled back.

Inside foot tipped so the big toe edge is up off the snow.  Hip not pushed to the snow--but allowed to drop.  Knee not driven toward the snow.  Outside big toe not pressed into the snow.

Hips & shoulders rotated toward the outside of the turn.  Shoulders tilted toward the outside as much as possible.

Inside shoulder, arm, hand forward, outside shoulder, hand, arm back.

Your pole plant will be just a tap, just a twitch of the wrist, not an arm swing, never a body & arm swing.

sheesh - anything else he can do for you, besides learning how to ski?

one thing at a time... how about you try to flex the inside leg a little, to allow bigger angles ? Watch Anna's photo: the more the inside leg is flexed, the more angles you can create and the better the carving effect.

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