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Switching side angles on GS race skis

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

I am in my 6th year of Masters Racing and will be running Rossi Hero 21 Meter Masters race skis. We mostly race on pretty icy and relatively steep slopes. Currently I am set at .75 base and 92 side angles. Was told by some that 93 might be preferable. Is there a downside or technique adjustment or would I even notice the new angle? (Assuming a well tuned, sharp ski)

 

As for my slaloms (also Rossi Masters SL), I am also running the .75 and 92 degrees. Again the local experts say .5 and 93 is the way to go. 

 

Any tips on what to expect if I switch greatly appreciated.

post #2 of 13

Unless you haven't learned to carve or are too lazy to tune your skis frequently enough, I'd recommend all skiers use a side edge angle of 3 degrees (93 the way you're looking at it) for all skiing. Slalom could even go to 4 if you tune after every day or two out. Base angles are more variable and depend on a lot of things. This improves the effectiveness of everything that involves your edges with the only downside being they get dull faster. Beginners and intermediates who aren't comfortable using their edges properly might prefer a lower side angle, but that's the only exception I can think of.

 

Personally, I use 0.5 degrees base for both SL and GS, partially because I don't feel like buying another guide and partially because I'm on the icy east coast and would rather be slower from occasionally over edging than struggling on hard ice.

post #3 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post
 

Unless you haven't learned to carve or are too lazy to tune your skis frequently enough, I'd recommend all skiers use a side edge angle of 3 degrees (93 the way you're looking at it) for all skiing. Slalom could even go to 4 if you tune after every day or two out. Base angles are more variable and depend on a lot of things. This improves the effectiveness of everything that involves your edges with the only downside being they get dull faster. Beginners and intermediates who aren't comfortable using their edges properly might prefer a lower side angle, but that's the only exception I can think of.

 

Personally, I use 0.5 degrees base for both SL and GS, partially because I don't feel like buying another guide and partially because I'm on the icy east coast and would rather be slower from occasionally over edging than struggling on hard ice.

Getting dull faster is an old wives tale. It just is not true!

 

Absolutely no downside to a 3 degree side edge. In fact it is not considered radical or unusual at all. Go to a 3 on your Gs skis and you will never look back.

 

And good call on the 4 on SL. Absolutely try it. 

 

If you don't like it,  side edge angles can be reduced or increased at will with no stone grind or special prep.

post #4 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Getting dull faster is an old wives tale. It just is not true!

 

Absolutely no downside to a 3 degree side edge. In fact it is not considered radical or unusual at all. Go to a 3 on your Gs skis and you will never look back.

 

And good call on the 4 on SL. Absolutely try it. 

 

If you don't like it,  side edge angles can be reduced or increased at will with no stone grind or special prep.


This!   Personally I like 0.5/3 on my GS and 0.5/4 on  my slaloms.  I dont put less than 3 on any of my skis, including my Patrons

post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the replies. Will try 3 on both.

post #6 of 13
The edges dulling faster is not a wives tale. The thinner the edge is, the easier it is to damage. It's pretty cut and dry. In the context of race skis it probably doesn't matter much though.
post #7 of 13

The rate at which an edge dulls @ 88 degrees vs 87 degrees is negligible. We're talking 1 degree of difference on an angle that's almost obtuse. The increased wear is caused by the ice that requires the 87 or 86 degree angle. If you ski on groomed snow you will notice that your edges do not require maintenance nearly as often as they do when you ski on ice. I used to work in a bindery and sharpened the trim knives for the paper cutters. We did some testing with different angles and found virtually no difference in the life span of the edge when changing by 1 or 2 degrees, However, we did notice a difference in the loads generated. We then began to change to angles based upon the type of stock to be trimmed. Chipboard vs copy paper etc. I run an 87 on everything I own. Skis that I use for beer league get sharpened prior to every event because the course will develop ice around the gates, especially if ruts develop. Skis that I use for teaching or freeskiing will get done much less frequently.

 

Karl

post #8 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 


This!   Personally I like 0.5/3 on my GS and 0.5/4 on  my slaloms.  I dont put less than 3 on any of my skis, including my Patrons

3 Degree on my Rituals! Mojo 94 and Monster 88

 

Of course my widest ski is the Ritual at 103. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

The edges dulling faster is not a wives tale. The thinner the edge is, the easier it is to damage. It's pretty cut and dry. In the context of race skis it probably doesn't matter much though.

Thinner???   

 

 

SkiMD produces side edge angles at 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 degree. 2.0 degree is used for jr. skis and powder skis. 3.0 degree is used for narrower performance recreational and race skis, while SL and GS skis have the option of being produced at 4.0 degrees. More factories are realizing that it’s worth the hassle to recalibrate side edge machinery to this parameter. Why? Because shaped skis are able to achieve higher tip angles with greater leverage than straight skis. As a result, skis with less than 3 degrees of side edge will have a tendency to chatter and become duller quicker as a result of skidding more and cutting less. Never let anyone try to convince you that this is too radical, or that it gets duller quicker. No information exists to support that theory. The difference in material removal between a 3 or 4 degree side edge angle is truly minimal over a side edge height of 2-2.5 millimeters. However, the difference in performance when asking your skis to do what you want is profound. If your skis or snowboard chatter when tipped on edge, it means your side edge angle is incorrect. 
 
Who is SkiMD....So you don't have to take my word for it!
 
- Graduate Stratton Mountain Ski Academy - 1979 - NCAA competitor UVM Ski Team
- Physical Education Degree UVM - 1984
- 7 years World Cup Technician/WC Race Director for Volkl
- 4 years Product Development Manager for Volkl
- Member Volkl International Test Team
- Lifetime Achievement Award for excellence in the fields of World Cup Service and Product Development for Volkl Skis
- Technical service consultant for Volkl, Blizzard, Dynastar and Elan skis
post #9 of 13
Chill your ego. Use some common sense here. The finer the edge on any sharp surface, the more prone to damage it is. That's basic science/engineering.
Anyone can tell you that, and you can look under a microscope and see it. In the context of skis use on race courses it shouldn't matter, because you're probably not going to hit anything that will damage the edges and the tune intervals are much shorter. You could quantify that there was more wear with more angle with an electron microscope, but does it matter? Probably not.
I wouldn't call a 3 degree sidewall radical, I used to sharpen my snowboard to that.
Edited by clink83 - 1/13/16 at 11:46am
post #10 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

Chill your ego. Use some common sense here. The finer the edge on any sharp surface, the more prone to damage it is. That's basic science/engineering.
Anyone can tell you that, and you can look under a microscope and see it. In the context of skis use on race courses it shouldn't matter, because you're probably not going to hit anything that will damage the edges and the tune intervals are much shorter. You could quantify that there was more wear with more angle with an electron microscope, but does it matter? Probably not.
I wouldn't call a 3 degree sidewall radical, I used to sharpen my snowboard to that.
Ego? What? You sir are ignoring the facts. As has been pointed out, the difference in material removed between a 2 and 3 degree is truly minimal over a a 2-2.5mm edge height.

There is no practical difference in how long a 3 degree stays effectively sharp compared to a 2 degree , regardless of
your hypothetical scientific bloviation
And it is a 3 degree side EDGE not sidewall Professor!
Edited by Atomicman - 1/14/16 at 9:02pm
post #11 of 13

LOL, think about it and you really can't argue with Atomicman.   We're talking about a difference between 2 and 3 degrees, not 45 degrees and 60 degrees, etc.  One degree is negligible but does seem to help a little with holding turns in hard conditions.  Also you would not be removing much metal from the base edge of the metal, mostly shaving off from the top to get the 3 degrees.  Personally I have moved to .5 base and 3 degree edges on my GS skis.  Have to pay attention in hero snow but it's not bad.

 

Always humbling to consider this, but the fastest guy on our 3 night league teams has not tuned his race skis in 2 years.  He's a pretty consistent 8 handicap and typically faster in icy conditions despite the lack of tune.  I have at least learned to not make equipment excuses :D.

post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

Chill your ego. Use some common sense here. The finer the edge on any sharp surface, the more prone to damage it is. That's basic science/engineering.
Anyone can tell you that, and you can look under a microscope and see it. In the context of skis use on race courses it shouldn't matter, because you're probably not going to hit anything that will damage the edges and the tune intervals are much shorter. You could quantify that there was more wear with more angle with an electron microscope, but does it matter? Probably not.
I wouldn't call a 3 degree sidewall radical, I used to sharpen my snowboard to that.


No doubt there is a relationship between how acute the edge is and how fast it wears, however it is probably more like a sinusoidal curve than a straight line, flattening out near 90 degrees, and getting very steep near zero degrees. 

 

I like 0.5, 3 on my SL, GS, and 0.5, 2 on my antique speed skis (the way Kästle set them up -trying to get back to the original just peeled the sticky tape off the base tune LOL).  1,2 on my mogul skis.  Machetes are now 1,1 because they came with a 1 degree base which hasn't seen a grind yet, and because the cap won't let me put the sides at 2 degrees anymore. 

 

If you are skiing powder or deep soft snow of any consistancy, it doesn't make much difference, so you may as well put a a hard-snow tune on 'em for when you come across a patch of icy, wind-blown or refrozen snow.

post #13 of 13
0.5/4 is a fine angle, come on this a 87.5 true angle. Drill bits, metal working, exotic metal tooling is even sharper and take lots more abuse under higher loading for continuously longer periods before resharpening. A-man and SS are right. My GS are 0.5/4 and my current SL are 0.7/3 came tuned as such from SS (and ski great thanks SS), no tune update until base grind if required and then they go to 0.5/4 like my previous SL's.
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