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Thinking of going shorter radius gs skis - Page 3

post #61 of 89

Hi Utah...

 

I am a complete hack in the gates and I use the Hero LT TI for our beer league.  I do not practice, I just show up and go.  Last night was our first night and it was the first time sending the LT through a course.  I had a good second run, I actually got a platinum.  The cheater is a cheater.  The issue I was running into is that I was finishing turns way too early, resulting in me curling into a ball so I don't crush the gate.  The LT is a spectacular ski.  Not sure if it is the tail or the tip, but there is fairy dust somewhere making this thing very user friendly.  However, if I had a chance to run gates more often, I would be on a larger radius.  Problem is, I need the cheater for when I screw up on the gate that is offset more, usually right before the flats.  

 

My freeskiing on slaloms has helped me a lot with my racing.  However, with nothing to look at and turn around, my practice is limited.  Which brings me to my point.  I suck at racing.  While my freeskiing is pretty good, it all goes to hell when I am in the gates.  My mind just goes blank.  Kudos to you for even being being able to think about things like apex of a turn.  I will never get to that point.  The only thing I can do is try to look as far ahead as possible.  Finally I have learned not to look at the gate I am approaching.  To me, that is the key to get the skis around efficiently.  Everything else that gets talked about is just noise to me, interesting and well informed noise, but I am not able to think about those things.  

 

I am trying really hard to ingrain the basics in my freeskiing, tipping, hips forward, counter, etc. so that stuff happens naturally in the gates.  So far, not so good :)  But getting closer.

 

Pete

post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 

This does not mean I am horrid skier...I would bet once my line is right my times start dropping instead of my measly 16 handicap. 

 

The apex on a motorcycle is the point at which you are closest to the line.  Its the point where there is no gas no brake and you are starting to gas right after it.  It's exactly where the gate would be and what I stated several times

 

 The general public is on here and if you cannot define definitions this forum is useless.  It's obvious to me that people are so caught up in terminology that you cannot talk to the anyone. 

 

FWIW, I have never met either Scots Skier or markojp, although I've had plenty of online back and forth with them for years. IME, whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing, they are calmer and more reasoned with their posts than most here, myself included :o. They are remarkably easy to talk to, seems like, for everyone except you. More to the point, they spend a lot of discretionary time giving well-informed opinions about gear, prep, technique, even informal motion analysis, for free. That's a benefit of Epic; we're not just a bunch of couch potatoes with diarrhea of the fingers, many of us know real world stuff and share. There's a remarkable collective intelligence here; besides lots of folks in the ski industry, we include engineers, attorneys, athletes in other sports, doctors, scientists, successful businesspeople, and yep, even some pros check in once in a while. OK? so it's been obvious for about a page and a half that you were using "apex" in a nonconventional way for skiing, and no one was flipping about it. You got nice diagrams, repeatedly, great technique advice, etc. 

 

So you countered with your own diagram. I get that too; you were feeling defensive, it's never easy to be called wrong by a group, and you wanted to show you had a reason for your definition. Great. We get it. I owned and rode bikes for 30 years, as I recall some here including Scots actually for real raced. If I can note a fundamental conceptual difference, in motorcycle or car racing, the apex is defined by the road curvature, as the innermost line the racer can take within the curve of the road. As this Wiki entry notes, it is not necessarily the center of the road curve, and may not even be a curve, period:

 

"Within the context of motorcycling, the apex refers to the point where the motorcycle is closest to the inside of the corner and not necessarily the center of the corner." 

 

In skiing, there is no road, just better or worse lines. And we use apex as a mathematician or engineer does, to mean the center of the curve. (Which as also the derivation of the standard dictionary definition, "highest point." So a skiing apex is not anywhere near the gate, unless we are badly late on our turn (been there, done that). We knew that. If we kept re-explaining it, 'twas not because of rudeness or pedantry but because you kept defending a bad analogy with another sport. You didn't seem to be listening, just returning to the motorcycle thing. 

 

OK, all that said, not sure your times or handicap will drop dramatically. My sons both race, for instance, and stronger kids love to run straight at gates, bash 'em, and turn frantically. When you're light, and not going super fast, you can actually post decent times that way. Ditto for mediocre Masters racers like me. But that approach hits a wall. Your times flatten out. So the coaches cure 'em of that as early as possible. By contrast, learning a good line, initiating really early, will slow you down for a good while. No "Eureka" moment on the podium. But over time, with lotsa reps (all it takes is one late turn to mess up the next 5 below you), you'll start getting better and better, and other issues will show up you can tinker with. :D One of the joys of racing (or more generally, skiing) is how infuriating it is. 

 

Good luck, really. 

post #63 of 89

Wow, just read the rest of this thread.

 

Ok, I will try Apex.  In skiing gates, to me the apex only partly has something to do with the gate I am about to round.  I would think the apex, or location of it, is determined by the gate I am about to go around......and the next one I need to set up for.  Am I close?

 

Pete

post #64 of 89
Edit: I see @beyond has covered much of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post


The apex is never the middle of the turn on a motorcycle. 

Motorcycles
Within the context of motorcycling, the apex refers to the point where the motorcycle is closest to the inside of the corner and not necessarily the center of the corner. Because motorcycles need to lean through corners and the risk associated with the lean, it is desirable to limit the time leaning over as much as possible; as such it is a popular technique to delay the apex until some point in the second half of the turn.

Does this look like the 1/2 of the turn?  


Well that does look like 1/2 the turn actually but the other half isn't drawn in. "Turn" being the line one takes not the physical inside of the track.

Are there multiple definitions of apex in motor sports? One is geometric, one is action based- what you do?
From a brief search, sounds like the apex is the point in the turn closest to the inside of the track. Also called the clipping point?

"During the Corner Apex phase or 'clipping' point, the car has reached the mid-point that separates corner entry and corner exit. The apex is the corner's neutral point, the place where the transition between entry and exit is made."


http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/cornering_tech.html

So the problem is if one just transfers that to ski racing it would mean the apex is always at the gate. But in ski racing there's no inside curb of the track. One makes their own track around fixed points. Almost no one in ski racing or skiing calls a turn a corner Utah. I get that it's somewhat interchangeable in motor sports where one has a physical track with an inside curb/wall and an outside curb/wall.

Sometimes the apex might be centered on the gate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Remember that people use "turn" in skiing not "corner". Didn't we go through that? That could help with apex being different.

Another photo. Marcel.


http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/posted-11-2015/content/Hirscher-Vail-2015-GS-1.psd_large.html

Possibly this helps with training:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

IMO the value of the rise line concept is less now than it used to be in the non-carving era. In a carved turn the main pressure phase may start before the rise line.
I can't agree. It may even be more important.

From US Ski Team training in 2010

We spent a lot of time this season focusing on tactics as we discovered that

some of the girl’s tactics were so bad that they couldn’t ski technically

well in the gates.  What we worked on was really quite simple in concept.

Give room at the gate.  If you watch the best skiers in the world in giant

slalom they are not bashing the panels.  If they touch them at all usually

it is very lightly.  The idea is to give the feet enough room off the panel

to allow clean passage by the gate without impeding the strong body

position.  Probably the number one issue across the country tactically is

pinching, or starting the turn too early
and crowding the gate.
To work on this we used two primary drills.  1st off in the prep period we

would set a brush corridor for both slalom and gs with the instructions of

do not begin the turn untill you cross the brush line, make the arc outside

of the brushes and be completely done with the turn as you cross the line

again going back into the corridor.
 Along with that, the goal was to be

fluid and move through transition and begin rolling the ski onto the new

edge but being patient to wait for the other side of the corridor before

pressuring the ski and allowing the tip to carve into the turn.

Secondly, we would paint blue lines in gs and slalom vertically above the

gate and below the gate.  While running the course the athletes were tasked

with waiting for the blue line before starting the turn and being

completely released off the outside ski as they crossed the blue line under

the gate.  These drills if done properly will help put the turn in the

correct place as well as provide space at the gate to be strong.

Along with the patience for the rise line, the concept of not skiing too

high of a line was critical.  On average most athletes seemed to be running

an entirely too high of line.  We tasked the athletes with pushing the line

down the hill and running a low apex as well as a direct line towards the

next rise line.  Just by playing with the line we would see variations of

up to 2 seconds in some athletes in a 40 second gs.  This was with the top

juniors in the country.  Proper tactics can singularly find the most time
for an athlete in a course.
post #65 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

Hi Utah...

 

I am a complete hack in the gates and I use the Hero LT TI for our beer league.  I do not practice, I just show up and go.  Last night was our first night and it was the first time sending the LT through a course.  I had a good second run, I actually got a platinum.  The cheater is a cheater.  The issue I was running into is that I was finishing turns way too early, resulting in me curling into a ball so I don't crush the gate.  The LT is a spectacular ski.  Not sure if it is the tail or the tip, but there is fairy dust somewhere making this thing very user friendly.  However, if I had a chance to run gates more often, I would be on a larger radius.  Problem is, I need the cheater for when I screw up on the gate that is offset more, usually right before the flats.  

 

My freeskiing on slaloms has helped me a lot with my racing.  However, with nothing to look at and turn around, my practice is limited.  Which brings me to my point.  I suck at racing.  While my freeskiing is pretty good, it all goes to hell when I am in the gates.  My mind just goes blank.  Kudos to you for even being being able to think about things like apex of a turn.  I will never get to that point.  The only thing I can do is try to look as far ahead as possible.  Finally I have learned not to look at the gate I am approaching.  To me, that is the key to get the skis around efficiently.  Everything else that gets talked about is just noise to me, interesting and well informed noise, but I am not able to think about those things.  

 

I am trying really hard to ingrain the basics in my freeskiing, tipping, hips forward, counter, etc. so that stuff happens naturally in the gates.  So far, not so good :)  But getting closer.

 

Pete

 

 

If you ski Nastar watch the pace setter, then watch the general public.  They are on a whole different course.  Think your fast try seeing how close you can get to the fastest that day.  At some point you hit the limit because of the line.  I have hit the limit of what I can do without getting into the fast line.  I am usually around three seconds off the the fastest in league racing.  That is all I am going to get unless I get a better line and then it's a matter of how well did I carve.  Then its how tuned are my skis, am I in my gs suit, am I releasing the ski right, is the wax right...  it can go on an on.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

So the problem is if one just transfers that to ski racing it would mean the apex is always at the gate. But in ski racing there's no inside curb of the track. One makes their own track around fixed points. Almost no one in ski racing or skiing calls a turn a corner Utah. I get that it's somewhat interchangeable in motor sports where one has a physical track with an inside curb/wall and an outside curb/wall.

 

Yes you get my confusion there sorry for that.  Again I think defining things helped a ton.  I am not a l3 coach, just someone who teaches how to wedge. ;)

 

Quote:
  Probably the number one issue across the country tactically is pinching, or starting the turn too early and crowding the gate.
 
Along with the patience for the rise line, the concept of not skiing too high of a line was critical.

 

Yes if you watch my video that is exactly what I did.  When I think high line I start my turn early then pause and turn again because I am pinched at the gate.  I am too high vertically to the gate and not far enough over on the rise line.  It was on video that way plain as day.  It's also the reason I am not carving my turns on some gates, I just don't have the room. That is the difficult part for probably most amateur racers trying to find the point to initialize the ski.  It's not intuitive to initiate a turn once you have hit that rise line.  Also when you think of how to initiate on a flatter part of a course vs the steeper part.  Then there is the whole question of vertically where you should be on the hill.  I know this all has to do with the radius of the ski and the steepness of the hill.  It just all gets a bit overwhelming.  Which is why I end up late, and not in the right spot.  I have no idea where to be, and its far easier with a short radius to turn close to the gate (thus the thread).  I think the idea of looking at a gate for queue to start or initialize my turn is a good start.  At least this gives me a lot more to think of other than carve your turns, start a higher line.  Which is honestly all I have ever got out of coaches.  I have known that I should initiate before the gate, but still couldn't picture what queue to look for.  Which is why I was asking for brush gates.

 

I have to say honestly ridding a motorcycle and track ridding is easier than skiing.  I have both sides of the line defined.  You can only be on one side of the road or the other.  The only thing I have to think of is speed.  The ironic part is that you control that speed at the top of the turn (does that sound familiar) of course the majority of braking is before you turn in.  I am not saying racing a motorcycle is easy so don't get me wrong.  It has more defined lines, the rest is up to how fast a person can ride those.  Which I am not fast and don't want to race a motorcycle.

 

When it comes to ski racing I have the up most respect and admiration for anyone in that top tier.  Maybe Mark is right and I should join USSA.  I have been looking for anything to help me out in this area but it is not easy to come by.  Its very difficult for me to find especially when you don't know what language to use, rise line who would have thunk?  I was googling apex on gs ski racing everything else to try to get something to come up.

 

These are all great resources so thank you everyone for sharing.  This is a wonderful video thanks to Mark which explain rise line and clearly show initiation of that turn.  Also I have had coaches once and a while talk about line choices.  So I have heard high, low, middle lines, and thought about lines.  It's easy thinking of it and say start a high line.  The common one I hear is if your strong enough you can ski a low fast line.  What that means however has to have context.  I have never had a discussion of where the apex is and what the rise line even means.  That is what created context to the conversation of what line choice means.  It would seem to me that no matter the line choice your still aiming for that rise line or that same apex.  So it is a lot more clear to me but when I get out on a course it might be as clear as mud... ;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

UT, it would be worth your whole to join USSA and purchase some of their race training material. You need to be familiar with ideas like 'rise line', etc... Any good coach would have discussed this. These ideas have been around forever and any coach not seeing this in your skiing isn't worth a penny... assuming you're listening, which I am.

A mini vid after a 20 second youtube search:

 

 

This is what I am understanding which I hope is right.

 

Just looked at this again I meant minimum carving arc for the ski and line.


Edited by utahsaint - 1/14/16 at 4:29pm
post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

I guess your understanding of motor cycle racing is equivalent to your ski racing...

 

But whatever, you are obviously a star at both with no need for coaching....

 

Really Scott?  If you look up my definition it came from wikipedia and is exactly what I know of it.  The apex is never the middle of the turn on a motorcycle.  Now your just being a complete jerk of a person. 

 

 

Motorcycles

Within the context of motorcycling, the apex refers to the point where the motorcycle is closest to the inside of the corner and not necessarily the center of the corner. Because motorcycles need to lean through corners and the risk associated with the lean, it is desirable to limit the time leaning over as much as possible; as such it is a popular technique to delay the apex until some point in the second half of the turn.

 

Does this look like the 1/2 of the turn?  Really I am done! 

 


Look at the diagram, the turn occurs early flattening out at the apex, in skiing language this is HIGH EARLY TURN WITH TRANSITION OCCURING AT OR ABOUT THE GATE (look at Ligety or Hirscher) .  You are right it is similar unfortunately your understanding is some what missing.

 

Scotsskier and markojp are telling you the same thing.  Read! Learn!!!! These guys know what they are talking about and the best part is they share so willingly on the wealth of knowledge that they have that you would generally pay big dollars for.  They even explain it extremely well if you are willing to understand.  I'm an extremely good skier with 51 years of experience and know when to listen.  These guys I listen to as they have more knowledge and understanding of the what is current and effective than I ever will.

 

SS and Marko double Thumbs Up from me.

 

Cheers G.

post #67 of 89

 

Look at 1:07 High Early Fast and he isn't always there it is what made him the fastest for a while until the rest caught up.

 

For me this is still one of the best things to watch as it is what was there 35 years ago (equipment being the limiting factor) and now equipment being similar just so much better making it so much faster with amazing edge hold.  If I had these types skis 35 years ago, I would have been World Champion provided everyone else was on the old stuff.

post #68 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

 

Look at 1:07 High Early Fast and he isn't always there it is what made him the fastest for a while until the rest caught up.

 

For me this is still one of the best things to watch as it is what was there 35 years ago (equipment being the limiting factor) and now equipment being similar just so much better making it so much faster with amazing edge hold.  If I had these types skis 35 years ago, I would have been World Champion provided everyone else was on the old stuff.

 

  Yes I have watched this a lot and didn't understand the queues or the target.  What I see is that he has is arm up almost directly over that rise line.  Which means he is starting to pressure that bottom edge.  Its almost a sign of initialization, am I right?  What I often would target is a feel so on gates that run a rhythm I could get get my timing right.  I could arc high make it through the turn and be finishing at the gate.  What throws me off is gates out of sequence pitch changes and other things like that.  So having a line and a queue to think of will help a lot I hope.  Also I never understood that even on a flat pitch you will want to finish at the gate.  For some odd reason I thought that changed based on pitch.  All of this gives me a lot more to target which should help.


Edited by utahsaint - 1/14/16 at 4:39pm
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Also I never understood that even on a flat pitch you will want to finish at the gate. For some odd reason I thought that changed based on pitch. All of this gives me a lot more to target which should help.
You're making leaps now which aren't necessarily true.
Ted at Sochi GS

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/19/sports/olympics/100000002720793.mobile.html
Edited by Tog - 1/14/16 at 6:35pm
post #70 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


You're making leaps now which aren't necessarily true.
Ted at Sochi Downhill

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/19/sports/olympics/100000002720793.mobile.html

 

Oh one skill at a time please...  I am not talking downhill, super g, or Slalom at all till I get this one down :D

post #71 of 89
Look at when he brings his hands together this is more or less the initiation of the transition point. Notice that it is at or before the gate. The upper body starts, and the lower follows.

Again SS and Markojp describe it so much better.

I'm surprised that as an instructor that you don't see this.
post #72 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Look at when he brings his hands together this is more or less the initiation of the transition point. Notice that it is at or before the gate. The upper body starts, and the lower follows.

Again SS and Markojp describe it so much better.

 

Oh again I might have wrong language.  What I mean is the point at which he starts his new turn.  It's always at the rise line when his arm is high up in the air.  That is the point he starts putting pressure on his ski and starts the new turn.  The rest is important, but I need to understand that part for the rest to fall in place.  I think I have it just was trying to clarify that point.  Of course my markup with the red lines on the image is was what I understand of it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 

 

This is what I am understanding which I hope is right.

 

Just looked at this again I meant minimum carving arc for the ski and line in the box.  Obviously that means you can stiviot, dump speed all sorts of things in that top half of the turn...

 

 

 

 

Also another question for Markojp is USSA training materials.  I found a giant slalom technique and tactics dvd on the education shop for ussa.  Is that worth it or would I have better material becoming a member of USSA?  http://educationshop.ussa.org/Giant-Slalom-Technique-and-Tactics_p_124.html

post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post



"During the Corner Apex phase or 'clipping' point, the car has reached the mid-point that separates corner entry and corner exit. The apex is the corner's neutral point, the place where the transition between entry and exit is made."
 

A perfect definition; it matches mine:D.  Translated to skiiing, it is the point where you stop increasing edge angle and start decreasing edge angle.

 

BTW I learned (a little) motorcycle racing from these guys  http://www.fastridingschool.com/index3.html  .   Michel Joseph Françcois Maurice Merçier, besides sharing three names with me, also seemed to have the same definition of "apex".

 

The other "definitions" are merely instructions to the rider on where they should decide to place the apex of their turn (e.g. put the apex at the fall line, nearest the curb, etc.).

post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

You're making leaps now which aren't necessarily true.

Ted at Sochi GS


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/19/sports/olympics/100000002720793.mobile.html

Oh one skill at a time please...  I am not talking downhill, super g, or Slalom at all till I get this one down biggrin.gif
Sorry, that's the GS! Not sure why I wrote downhill as Ted didn't do the downhill. However, the title of the page says in enormous type "Gold in Giant Slalom" :-). Have a look.
post #75 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Sorry, that's the GS! Not sure why I wrote downhill as Ted didn't do the downhill. However, the title of the page says in enormous type "Gold in Giant Slalom" :-). Have a look.

I realize it's racing there are no hard fast rules. All anyone can do is look for queues. The more queues I have for ideal lines the better off I'll be. Even racing a motorcycle your not always going outside edge to the inside edge and can decide where to clip the inside or not to at all.

As for the rest of the thread and argument. People read things and now their the expert... I am over it. In motor racing you rarely if ever talk about the apex of your turn. It's always about the apex of the corner! Huge difference there.

I am more interested in where to start turning in. Where I am most turned in and where I release. The apex of my turn moves all over based on that. So really that's pointless to me.
Edited by utahsaint - 1/14/16 at 9:52pm
post #76 of 89
Not sure why you're back into that since it's easier to settle.
I don't really buy the fall line apex definition in skiing.
This makes more sense to me:




https://www.eteamz.com/sst/files/TechniqueandTactics.ppt

Not sure the original source. Seems like LeMaster.
post #77 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Not sure why you're back into that since it's easier to settle.
I don't really buy the fall line apex definition in skiing.
This makes more sense to me:



Not sure the original source. Seems like LeMaster.

Probably because others are bringing it back up. The words corner and turn are not interchangeable. When I say corner it's a defined path with a outside wall an inside wall (apex) and turn in point. My individual turn has a path in those walls. When skiing I am trying to define those paths, outside, inside and turn in point. That is why I was saying corner in the past and not turn. My issue for not understanding the terminology.

What I see is her arm at the highest point at that rise line. This means that outside ski is going to get some pressure at that point. Like I said before the rise line idea gives me a target I was not thinking of before.

That's a good document as well lots of tidbits.
Edited by utahsaint - 1/15/16 at 5:38am
post #78 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Look at when he brings his hands together this is more or less the initiation of the transition point. Notice that it is at or before the gate. The upper body starts, and the lower follows.

I'm surprised that as an instructor that you don't see this.

Trust me I did notice the hands coming together and a lot of other nuances. I never understood the turn in point and without that rest is what follows. You cannot create good carving, transitions, or a release without having a good starting point.
post #79 of 89
This varies from skier to skier, could be pole "plants" or handsome something else, it is both the start and finish. As an instructor you really should know this.
post #80 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

This varies from skier to skier, could be pole "plants" or handsome something else, it is both the start and finish. As an instructor you really should know this.

 

I was never taught about rise line and points to look for to create that starting point.  This is not something I would just know.  It's all a guess and I have never understood the target was to complete the turn at the gate.  These are not things anyone including a level one instructor would just "know."  Those all make for very different lines in gates as I am sure you understand.  To me the "apex" being the corner or gate was movable (I know not the definition of an apex for a turn).  Meaning that my turn and target of the finish changes based on line.  So the idea of high, medium and low line was more about the finish of the turn and not the entry.  This is a very different idea than a line being the starting point.  To me that finish was movable as well.  Again knowing how to run a course fast is about entry, apex, and exit.  Without that defined try skiing gates fast, it will never happen no matter how good of skier you are.  So my goal was mostly to run at a gate and try to apex at the gate.  That only takes so much room but when I couldn't carve it that was frustrating.  Now I realize that my goal was the wrong thing to try to do.  Which again I understood my lines where off, I knew this last year and asked for brush gates...  so we are in fact going in circles.

 

The fine points about how a person skis is what I do as an instructor.  This has everything to do with being able to do movement analysis.  This again has nothing to do with lines in a course.  Those things I do notice. 


Edited by utahsaint - 1/15/16 at 12:58pm
post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

This varies from skier to skier, could be pole "plants" or handsome something else, it is both the start and finish. As an instructor you really should know this.

 

I was never taught about rise line and points to look for to create that starting point.  This is not something I would just know.  It's all a guess and I have never understood the target was to complete the turn at the gate.  These are not things anyone including a level one instructor would just "know."  Those all make for very different lines in gates as I am sure you understand.  To me the "apex" being the corner or gate was movable (I know not the definition of an apex for a turn).  Meaning that my turn and target of the finish changes based on line.  So the idea of high, medium and low line was more about the finish of the turn and not the entry.  This is a very different idea than a line being the starting point.  To me that finish was movable as well.  Again knowing how to run a course fast is about entry, apex, and exit.  Without that defined try skiing gates fast, it will never happen no matter how good of skier you are.  So my goal was mostly to run at a gate and try to apex at the gate.  That only takes so much room but when I couldn't carve it that was frustrating.  Now I realize that my goal was the wrong thing to try to do.  Which again I understood my lines where off, I knew this last year and asked for brush gates...  so we are in fact going in circles.

 

The fine points about how a person skis is what I do as an instructor.  This has everything to do with being able to do movement analysis.  This again has nothing to do with lines in a course.  Those things I do notice. 

Unfortunately it is one and the same.

 

The so called FINE POINTS ABOUT HOW A PERSON SKIS be it on a race course or on a regular slope is no different and understanding the implications is no different.  What scares me is that you say one thing yet fail to understand what is being taught and shown to you on videos.

 

You are stuck on a concept that you think is the solution and can't get past it at this point.  THINK OUTSIDE YOUR BOX, drop your ideas and try and embrace to understand what these guys are showing you.  Until you can do this you are stuck and nothing anyone at this point can do to help.

post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Not sure why you're back into that since it's easier to settle.
I don't really buy the fall line apex definition in skiing.
This makes more sense to me:




https://www.eteamz.com/sst/files/TechniqueandTactics.ppt

Not sure the original source. Seems like LeMaster.

Tog has done this very nicely, as the end of the APEX is the end of one turn and the start of the next. Between these points is the transition which can be fast or slow depending on how close the next gate is.

post #83 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Unfortunately it is one and the same.

The so called FINE POINTS ABOUT HOW A PERSON SKIS be it on a race course or on a regular slope is no different and understanding the implications is no different.  What scares me is that you say one thing yet fail to understand what is being taught and shown to you on videos.

You are stuck on a concept that you think is the solution and can't get past it at this point.  THINK OUTSIDE YOUR BOX, drop your ideas and try and embrace to understand what these guys are showing you.  Until you can do this you are stuck and nothing anyone at this point can do to help.

Again I understand how a person skis. Your right that is no different in a course or on a slope. I am not concerned or asking that. What I am asking is about lines huge difference. Again I am asking about the start line the apex and exit. I think we have gone over that a lot and everyone had given me great tips.

My skiing in the video sucks because I am getting pinched at the gate. Again you try to apex at the gate and tell me how good your skiing. I ski a whole lot better trust me. So we are again going in circles.
post #84 of 89

You get pinched at the gate because your focus is to still make the turn(slowing down), instead of trying to go straight'ish  at the gate (going fast)  This happens when you are late or low into a turn.  You are playing catch up with the timing so to speak and as a result must slow down.

 

What you are trying to achieve is getting ahead of the gate (turn completed) just before or as you get to the gate.  Part of doing this is to go in high and think of a second gate higher up that you must clear first and the actual gate is really a straight line marker towards the next turn.

 

There is a fine line as to too far ahead as Atomicman mentioned, but this happens more to those that understand than those that are starting. IMHO.  You get to early you'll feel like you'll run inside the gate.

 

In short you are late and not enough, instead of early and just right. 

 

Don't forget, in driving we have power and brakes, in skiing its about gravity and not losing speed to braking, which is why some of the concepts while similar are slightly different.

 

Don't get me wrong, you are stuck on a concept, that you just can't get past (mental block) that someone needs to paint on the snow for you.  Your line, correct line.  Once you understand that, the rest makes sense as will understand the actions required to get there.

post #85 of 89
Now I understand why marko and scott bailed...

Utah, just go as basic as possible. So use the rise line. So you should be committing to new edges when tips cross it . On fall aways the rise line is further out so there's a delay.
A high line you start high up on the rise line. A low line you're low. When training, start high and work down. Taking a low line means you've got to make the turn in very little space. Which may be difficult if not impossible unless you're say Anna Fenninger.

So start high up and work down. It does no good to practice continually blowing out. So be high and clean as warmup and then bring it down. As you bring it down you may have to adjust what happens at the rise line. You may have to be in the new edges by it. But at least tge rise line gives you a reference point. See it in your mind as if it's real.
post #86 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Utah, just go as basic as possible. So use the rise line. So you should be committing to new edges when tips cross it . On fall aways the rise line is further out so there's a delay.
A high line you start high up on the rise line. A low line you're low. When training, start high and work down. Taking a low line means you've got to make the turn in very little space. Which may be difficult if not impossible unless you're say Anna Fenninger.

So start high up and work down. It does no good to practice continually blowing out. So be high and clean as warmup and then bring it down. As you bring it down you may have to adjust what happens at the rise line. You may have to be in the new edges by it. But at least tge rise line gives you a reference point. See it in your mind as if it's real.

 

 

Yes Tog, I have been saying this since post 58 and made a diagram on post 65.   I understand the rise line is a start.  So I will play with that and see where it gets me.  I completely agree with you on lines as well.  Since that post I have been saying is thank you to everyone... and explaining my confusing up front.  Again I will say thank you for the advice once more.


Edited by utahsaint - 1/15/16 at 8:12pm
post #87 of 89

maybe instead of spending time on the interwebz and wikipedia arguing definitions you might spend some time on the snow......:deadhorse:

 

As i said before, when all else fails do what your coach told you to start with...never fails...  :popcorn

post #88 of 89
Thread Starter 

Sorry guys have not been on here, was out skiing...  I ski on the weekends and think about it all week long ;).  Today had a wind chill of -35 but I was still out, maybe I should update something on the coldest you have ever skied thread?

 

Based on this thread I was able to apply the rise line idea, and carve an entire course.  It was easy to carve and delightful.  As a matter of fact I was able to carve so deep and clean that I could see my path on the chair ride up after three others or so had skied it.  I was only not happy with one turn. 

 

What was the result, well I matched the fastest on our team almost who was 4 seconds ahead of me last week.  This dropped my handicap by more than 4 points.  My second run was not as good but I was still on a higher line and carved a lot more of it.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

maybe instead of spending time on the interwebz and wikipedia arguing definitions you might spend some time on the snow......:deadhorse:

 

As i said before, when all else fails do what your coach told you to start with...never fails...  :popcorn

 

I just see this as trolling at this point,  is that fun?  We already defined everything and explained the confusion back on post 45 ish or so...  So who is trying to start something up again?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
This makes more sense to me:




https://www.eteamz.com/sst/files/TechniqueandTactics.ppt

Not sure the original source. Seems like LeMaster.

 

I didn't respond to this before because I quite agree with this definition, but if ever on a test I would have to use the USSA definition.  Also a good resource on the power point as well.

post #89 of 89
Thread Starter 

  Just wanted to give another update.  It's been three weeks and I have constantly dropped time.  This weekend I was down to a 17 handicap.  If all goes well I should be able to match my lowest handicap ever at around 15 and hopefully break that.

 

  I can feel the lines better and know when I am late.  There are still some gates I cannot seem to anticipate well enough ahead.  I am not sure but maybe some gates you cannot carve or have to use some speed control on.  Still working on what and where but this was a huge help.  Also instead of creaming gates at times this weekend I was barely touching them at most.  It's quite a different feel.

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