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Boot help for calf fatigue???

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

My wife (pretty good skier -- very athletic, very flexible, and very fit) skis in a pair of women's Technica Cochise boots.  After 1/2 day of skiing (doesn't matter if it's on her Head Titans on groomers, or her fat skis w/Barons in soft snow) she'll have excessive fatigue in her calf muscles and will take whatever break she can the remainder of the day to find some relaxation for her calf muscles.  The following day, her calf muscles will be so tight that it's almost comical watching her walk down stairs.  (In reality, it IS comical, but I've learned to stifle any laughter, as it's not worth getting beat about the head and shoulders as I try to drink my morning coffee...)  This is her third season skiing these boots (similar experience the last 2 seasons -- she's just taken the "grin and bear it" approach until her calves were fully in shape by mid season).  She loves her boots, which were set up by a bootfitter at the outset, and doesn't want to entertain a boot switch, so I'm wondering if there's any simple ways to play around with the forward lean angle on these things to simplify her life a bit.  Any thoughts or suggestions?

post #2 of 13

Sounds like too much F lean in the boots or she has very limited range of motion in her ankles?

either way, remove the rear spoiler on the back of the boot (white? thing,  might be unscrewed or drilled out)   or get the back of the cuff flaired back or lowered.

 

Would be interesting if she skied VERY easy terrain, in walk mode, if that still casued the same issue.

post #3 of 13

What size boot sole length

 

What is her calf muscles circumference at the top of the liner.

 

mike

post #4 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion View Post
 

Sounds like too much F lean in the boots or she has very limited range of motion in her ankles?

either way, remove the rear spoiler on the back of the boot (white? thing,  might be unscrewed or drilled out)   or get the back of the cuff flaired back or lowered.

 

Would be interesting if she skied VERY easy terrain, in walk mode, if that still casued the same issue.

Will try that -- should be very easy to experiment with those suggestions.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

What size boot sole length

 

What is her calf muscles circumference at the top of the liner.

 

mike

BSL is 310.  Measurement around her calf is 14.5"

post #5 of 13
Meant to ask---what length feet in centimeters?
Edited by miketsc - 1/11/16 at 6:05pm
post #6 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post

Meant to ask---what length feet in centimeters?


25.4 cm.

post #7 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick2 View Post
BSL is 310.  Measurement around her calf is 14.5"


A boot sole length of 310mm would indicate a boot that is at least a 26.5 in most brands---might even be a 27.5 (most boots are 305mm in a 26.5)

 

Your wife's feet are 25.5cm long which should indicate that her boots are too big for good control.

 

Your wife's calf circumference (14.5 inches) would be the reason why she is in such a large boot---her calves push her knees forward and when she tries to extend, her calf hits the back of the cuff too soon and pushes her feet forward into the toe box of the shell, ouch:(!!!!  so, she elected to go to a larger boot, which didn't seem to cause that problem.

 

The solution---Your wife needs a smaller boot with less forward lean (the boot shell should hold the foot still), as was mentioned before.

 

For her size calves (14.5 inches) the boot should only have 44mm of forward lean----Place one of her boots on an extended flat surface and then stand a carpenters square up behind the boot heel---now measure from the square to the back of the liner at the top of the shell---if the boot has more than 44mm then you know the source of the problem.

 

http://www.epicski.com/a/boot-fitting-which-boot-will-work-for-me

 

Read through the above article and perform a "shell check" on the boots she now has, to get a read on the over size problem.

 

Only buy boots by doing the shell check thing to determine fit---if you wife has average volume feet she may shell check correctly in a boot that is seemingly marked too small to fit.

 

mike

post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 


A boot sole length of 310mm would indicate a boot that is at least a 26.5 in most brands---might even be a 27.5 (most boots are 305mm in a 26.5)

 

Your wife's feet are 25.5cm long which should indicate that her boots are too big for good control.

 

Your wife's calf circumference (14.5 inches) would be the reason why she is in such a large boot---her calves push her knees forward and when she tries to extend, her calf hits the back of the cuff too soon and pushes her feet forward into the toe box of the shell, ouch:(!!!!  so, she elected to go to a larger boot, which didn't seem to cause that problem.

 

The solution---Your wife needs a smaller boot with less forward lean (the boot shell should hold the foot still), as was mentioned before.

 

For her size calves (14.5 inches) the boot should only have 44mm of forward lean----Place one of her boots on an extended flat surface and then stand a carpenters square up behind the boot heel---now measure from the square to the back of the liner at the top of the shell---if the boot has more than 44mm then you know the source of the problem.

 

http://www.epicski.com/a/boot-fitting-which-boot-will-work-for-me

 

Read through the above article and perform a "shell check" on the boots she now has, to get a read on the over size problem.

 

Only buy boots by doing the shell check thing to determine fit---if you wife has average volume feet she may shell check correctly in a boot that is seemingly marked too small to fit.

 

mike

 

I don't believe the boots are too large, but will check.  The bootfitter did a shell check when getting her into the right size, and both she and I remember her having about 1/2" of space inside the shell (it took trying on a number of different brands to find one that fit her correctly).  We don't have the boots in hand (and won't until we go skiing this weekend) so gave the BSL as that reported on the internet for what she remembers as her bootsize.  Since we both remember her shell fit, I'm guessing her memory of her boot size is mistaken, or the BSL reported on the internet is a bit off, but we'll verify.  Will also measure the amount of forward lean as you recommend, and report back.  Thanks! 

post #9 of 13

25 foot = 25 ish boot,  she is in 26/27 boot that is WAY too big

post #10 of 13

the first thing i would check is her ankle joint range of motion to see if it is on the limited or excessive. if normal, focus on the volume and controlling the rear foot down and back in the boot.

 

boot is definitely too big in length and in volume. along with that the height of the spoiler/cuff could be too tall or too straight. lowering or flaring the cuff may be in order.

 

muscle in the calf is over used because she is attempting to control the ski edge by gripping with the foot. this is exhausting! 

 

do you have a footbed, either custom or trim to fit?

 

post pictures of your wife feet and lower leg. 

 

jim

post #11 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
 

the first thing i would check is her ankle joint range of motion to see if it is on the limited or excessive. if normal, focus on the volume and controlling the rear foot down and back in the boot.

 

boot is definitely too big in length and in volume. along with that the height of the spoiler/cuff could be too tall or too straight. lowering or flaring the cuff may be in order.

 

muscle in the calf is over used because she is attempting to control the ski edge by gripping with the foot. this is exhausting! 

 

do you have a footbed, either custom or trim to fit?

 

post pictures of your wife feet and lower leg. 

 

jim


Thank you for the feedback.  When I check her ankle range of motion (copying what I've seen in ski shops -- seated, thighs parallel to floor, lower leg vertical) she can get 2.5" of lift beneath the ball of each foot while leaving the heel down.  (If I throw a straight edge under her foot as she does this, the angle subtends 23 degrees.)

 

Pics of her feet, ankles, and calves are below.  In addition to her larger than average calf size, she's blessed with high arches and a tall instep.  When I ask her about excess room in her boots, and whether her feet move around a bit when she skis, she says "none".  The only thing she is able to move is her toes, and that's to wiggle a little bit to keep circulation going -- no fore-aft movement of her foot inside the boot.  No particular hot spots or pressure points in her boots.

 

No footbeds.  The liner was baked, and fit to her foot.

 

Here are the pics:

 

 

 

 

 

post #12 of 13

thanks for the pics....not seeing any smoking gun...arch and instep do not appear to be that far from the average range...calf at least the part in the boot, does not look so big either.

 

specifically to the question of forward lean... I would try to reduce the bootboard ramp angle as well as pull the spoiler shim ( if there is one in) and maybe use a booster strap pulling the front of the boot to the shin, making sure that there is no gap between the front of the leg and the back of the leg against the boot cuff while skiing.

 

I believe that the 3 most telling parts of your wifes story are:

 

1. initial choice of boot size and possibly model?

 

2. no footbed? really we have gotten down 10 posts and not one of the boot experts sussed out that there is no support under the foot???????

 

3. next important clue is that her ankle ROM is in the excessive range!!!!!

 

 

Maverick2 - what model cochise is she in?

 

                  - what liner is she in that it needed to be baked?

 

                  - what is your assessment of her body position while skiing? tall with the hips and shoulders over her feet? squatty and low like a tele skier? lower back rounded? lower back reversed or                         swayed?

 

IMHO I would have fired your boot fitter for sending her out in an over sized boot with no underfoot support in the form of at least a trim to fit or at best a custom footbed. if her feet really measure 25.5 and she is a really athletic, pretty good skier and her BSL is 310, the boot is most definitely too big!! combine that with a hypermobile ankle and it looks like the ski industry has failed your wife miserably.

 

jim

post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 

OK,  we're back at the ski shack and I've got my wife's boots in hand, so can talk definitively about these things rather than shooting off memory.  Will answer questions in the order they've come up:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 


A boot sole length of 310mm would indicate a boot that is at least a 26.5 in most brands---might even be a 27.5 (most boots are 305mm in a 26.5)

 

Your wife's feet are 25.5cm long which should indicate that her boots are too big for good control.

 

 

 

For her size calves (14.5 inches) the boot should only have 44mm of forward lean----Place one of her boots on an extended flat surface and then stand a carpenters square up behind the boot heel---now measure from the square to the back of the liner at the top of the shell---if the boot has more than 44mm then you know the source of the problem.

 

 

 

First, verified that her memory was in error and the boots are sized 25/25.5 with a BSL of 300 mm.  This jives with her 25.5 cm long foot, and why we remembered the shell fit being right on.

 

Second, placing her boot on a square and measuring to the back of the liner at the top of the shell leads to a measurement of 60 mm.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
 

do you have a footbed, either custom or trim to fit?

 

 

Third -- yes there is a footbed inside the liner.  Was not a custom footbed, but she feels it gives great support underfoot and prefers it to the custom footbed she had in the prior boots

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
 

specifically to the question of forward lean... I would try to reduce the bootboard ramp angle as well as pull the spoiler shim ( if there is one in) and maybe use a booster strap pulling the front of the boot to the shin, making sure that there is no gap between the front of the leg and the back of the leg against the boot cuff while skiing.

 

- what model cochise is she in?

 

- what liner is she in that it needed to be baked?

 

- what is your assessment of her body position while skiing? tall with the hips and shoulders over her feet? squatty and low like a tele skier? lower back rounded? lower back reversed or                         swayed?

 

Fourth -- There's currently no spoiler on the boots.  How do you reduce the "bootboard" ramp angle?  Standing in the boots on the kitchen floor this evening, it doesn't take much shin pressure for her to get 1/2" + of space between the back of her calf and the boot liner in back.

 

Fifth -- she's in a 2013 Cochise Tecnica 100W.

 

Sixth -- liner is a "Quadra Technology" Ultra Fit liner that came with the boots.  My wife corrected me, telling me it's a "bakable" liner, but they chose not to bake it as it felt tight w/ no hot spots in the store and continues to feel that way now.  

 

Seventh -- she skis pretty tall.  Her shoulders, hips, and ankles are usually in alignment and pretty upright. 


Edited by maverick2 - 1/17/16 at 6:44am
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