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Base bevel change - what will I notice?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

I have changed equipment this year -  after a number of seasons on a base tune of 1 base/2 side setup, my new setup (factory recomendations ) and the shop set the ski at .5 base/2 side. I find the ski more directional - yes it could be body mechanics & skill.

I thought I'd ask before changing to 1 degree on the base.

 

Thanks for reading..

post #2 of 25
What do you mean by more directional?
I suspect you have a burr, "hanging burr", which needs to be removed by a fine stone .
Take a softish plastic pen body, and slide it it across the base edge. If it pulls off a plastic shaving or grips then a thin pies epicene of metal is sticking up. Aka hanging burr burr.
Do a search for "Skivisions tuning stick". It's just a piece of plastic like a pen to do the above. There should be a video somewhere on using it.

A 1/2 deg base bevel will make the ski engage more quickly. When a ski engages the edge it doesn't necessarily go forward unless it engages enough edge. You should still be able to slide sideways, side slip, do 360's, with a 1/2 deg base bevel. It just engages much more quickly and there's less margin for error. It just may feel too quick.
post #3 of 25

Tog, you are certainly on the right track, but there is really no need to cehck to see if you have a hanging burr. 

 

The OP should just ruse a stone to remove it and then go skis the skis and see if there is any difference. 

 

 

For the OP,

 

Put skis in a vise side edge up base away from you. 

 

 

Take and arkansas or ceramic or any flat stone and place it flat against the base edge with about 1/3 of the stone sticking up above the side edge. 

Using your thumb as a sort of guide on the side wall of the ski run the stone with medium pressure and in flat contact against the entire length of the edge. Make a couple of good passes . Pay attention to the any sound emantaing from the stone/edge contact and pay special attention to the contact points in the tip and tail. 

 

 

As last step fro an ultra smooth edge take a hard blue gummi stone at a 45 degree angle with ABSOLUTELY NO PRESSURE and run it down the edge point. 

Go try the ski and see if the perform properly. 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a true clean 1 degree base bevel. 

 

But I would highly recommend changing the side edge to a 3 degree!  

post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 

Thanks..

I'll take a look.

 

S

post #5 of 25
You can also go the silicon carbide sandpaper, (black, readily avail in hardware stores), route to remove burrs.

At about 3 minutes:
http://youtu.be/zXDk1eKZ1qc
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

You can also go the silicon carbide sandpaper, (black, readily avail in hardware stores), route to remove burrs.

At about 3 minutes:
http://youtu.be/zXDk1eKZ1qc

I am sure that has some validity,

but i would not and do not do it that way. 

 

 

And understand this is how to remove specifically a hanging burr

 

 

2 reasons...awkward trying to do that n a flat ski. !  But more importantly it seems it would be difficult to keep the soft paper from hanging over ( even if it is very slight) the edge point. 

 

 

It is much more natural and easier to control with a hardstone and the ski,  side edge up,  base away from you. No risk of a hardstone hanging over the edge point. 

 

I also can't under stand why you would use those huge 10 or 12" files when doing the side edge.  I use 4" or 100MM, about the same length as a diamond stone.  If the files length contacting the side edge is too long, it is more difficult for the file to follow the sidecut of the ski. particularly on a ski with a lot of sidecut.   I find Holmenkol Crystal Racing Files really good.  They come in 13 TPC and 15 TPC and than an excellent base edge files that is 150mm and 18 TPC

 

and then this to final polish edge and knock off hanging burr!

 

http://www.holmenkol.com/produkte/arkansas-true-hard.html

post #7 of 25
I agree about the sandpaper on base. Seems odd to me. A stone, even if one only has a 400 diamond stone would be better. Esp if it's a new concept to one.

Where do you purchase the hohlmenkohl files? I've picked one up in the past at a shop and liked it but that place is too far away. Seems vialla brand is a good buy for the $.

What teeth per cm file do you use when setting the base edge bevel setting? ( note people reading- this is only done once or not at all if the shop does it)
post #8 of 25

http://www.artechski.com/steel-sharpening-tools/

 

I use the  6 inch 18TPC on base. 

 

 

Also use their 4" Panzar all the time on the side edges. 

 

Artech also make a 7 degree side bevel tool to blend sidewall.  used with a 4" Panzar. 

post #9 of 25

Not much more can be added on this one as you've pretty well got everything covered and that's how I'd do it too.

 

I'll X2 the 1/3 tune as being a VERY good rec ski tune.

 

Also, one of the things that makes the Holmenkol Crystal finish files very user friendly, especially for those who maybe aren't very comfortable using files, is they have a very shallow tooth height and though it may take multiple passes, depending on the condition of the edge, it is much better to make multiple passes than trying to do it all in one cut.  Those shallow teeth is what gives the edge/s such a clean cut with minimal burr.

 

I'm a big fan of SVST's tungsten files because they are so sharp and last but I like using the extremely fine Holmenkol Crystal finish file on base edges.

 

Steveb, I'm a little curious about something.  You said your skis are a .5 base bevel and 2 degree side but I'm unaware of any skis that come from the factory with a .5 base bevel and since the only way you can go to a shallower base bevel is by having the skis ground flat and reset to .5, have your skis been stone ground flat and the bevels reset to .5 and 2???  If they haven't been stone ground, they likely aren't a .5 degree base bevel.  Do you by chance know how to measure base bevel?

post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Not much more can be added on this one as you've pretty well got everything covered and that's how I'd do it too.

 

I'll X2 the 1/3 tune as being a VERY good rec ski tune.

 

Also, one of the things that makes the Holmenkol Crystal finish files very user friendly, especially for those who maybe aren't very comfortable using files, is they have a very shallow tooth height and though it may take multiple passes, depending on the condition of the edge, it is much better to make multiple passes than trying to do it all in one cut.  Those shallow teeth is what gives the edge/s such a clean cut with minimal burr.

 

I'm a big fan of SVST's tungsten files because they are so sharp and last but I like using the extremely fine Holmenkol Crystal finish file on base edges.

 

Steveb, I'm a little curious about something.  You said your skis are a .5 base bevel and 2 degree side but I'm unaware of any skis that come from the factory with a .5 base bevel and since the only way you can go to a shallower base bevel is by having the skis ground flat and reset to .5, have your skis been stone ground flat and the bevels reset to .5 and 2???  If they haven't been stone ground, they likely aren't a .5 degree base bevel.  Do you by chance know how to measure base bevel?

Mojo, I was going to comment on the "Factory" .5   but I am getting less confrontational in my old age. :D  Of course they are not .5 from the factory! :ROTF 

 

And the SVST Tungsten Carbide  look amazing, but even I have a Dollar Limit on some items!


Edited by Atomicman - 1/11/16 at 2:05pm
post #11 of 25
Aman, you need to try that file.... Lol
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

MOjo, I was going to comment on the "Factory" .5   but I am getting less confrontational in my old age. :D  Of course they are not .5 from the factory! :ROTF

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Aman, you need to try that file.... Lol

I know but $90 bones is tall for a file!:eek

post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

 

Steveb, I'm a little curious about something.  You said your skis are a .5 base bevel and 2 degree side but I'm unaware of any skis that come from the factory with a .5 base bevel and since the only way you can go to a shallower base bevel is by having the skis ground flat and reset to .5, have your skis been stone ground flat and the bevels reset to .5 and 2???  If they haven't been stone ground, they likely aren't a .5 degree base bevel.  Do you by chance know how to measure base bevel?

 

Head Rebel iRace - I'm told by Head they are .5/2. They were setup by local shop & waxed, I have just used them.

 

Can I measure - yes - do I know how - yes.

 

I haven't measured them myself as this is on my to do list.

post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


A 1/2 deg base bevel will make the ski engage more quickly. When a ski engages the edge it doesn't necessarily go forward unless it engages enough edge. You should still be able to slide sideways, side slip, do 360's, with a 1/2 deg base bevel. It just engages much more quickly and there's less margin for error. It just may feel too quick.

 

Nice explanation, thank you

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Also use their 4" Panzar all the time on the side edges. 

 

Aman,

 

Would I be correct in assuming you're using the panzar on side edges only for setting the initial edge bevel?

 

I've always found your advice to be valuable and have learned most of my tuning skills from reading/following your advice but can't imagine using a panzar on my edges.  In fact I liked MoJo23's comments about  Holmenkol Crystal finish files having a very shallow tooth height and just making multiple passes.  But then I suspect you're skilled enough to make one pass with a panzar to change a 2* to  3* perfectly beveled side edge.  I'm definitely not at that level yet.

post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdleuck View Post
 

Aman,

 

Would I be correct in assuming you're using the panzar on side edges only for setting the initial edge bevel?

 

I've always found your advice to be valuable and have learned most of my tuning skills from reading/following your advice but can't imagine using a panzar on my edges.  In fact I liked MoJo23's comments about  Holmenkol Crystal finish files having a very shallow tooth height and just making multiple passes.  But then I suspect you're skilled enough to make one pass with a panzar to change a 2* to  3* perfectly beveled side edge.  I'm definitely not at that level yet.

I use the Panzar to initially set the side edge as you say but usually at 7 degrees to blend the side wall and then at 1 degree higher than my final side edge angle, so 4 degrees. And then got to a 13 TPC Holmekol  100mm at 3 degrees.  

 

then I usually go Moonflex 200 , 400 (and then sometimes 600 (GS skis) then arkansas or surgical or ceramic stone. 

 

 

I use the finest file I can find on the base edge. 

 

 

And I have been using Holmenkols for many years for all the reasons mentioned.

 

 

NIce thing about side edges they CAN be changed at will and thanks for the props but it still takes at least a couple of passes with a Panzar. Key is to just let the tool do the work.  Incremental filing (a little at a time is better than trying to take off big amounts) just a little at a time! 

 

Same thing applies to cutting back side walls. You are better off with 5 very shallow passes than 2 deep ones!

post #17 of 25
Making steel wool^^!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

A 1/2 deg base bevel will make the ski engage more quickly. When a ski engages the edge it doesn't necessarily go forward unless it engages enough edge. You should still be able to slide sideways, side slip, do 360's, with a 1/2 deg base bevel. It just engages much more quickly and there's less margin for error. It just may feel too quick.

Nice explanation, thank you
Should add that in soft snow like slush or powder it doesn't matter.

Also, as has been noted before, a true 1 deg base bevel is an excellent recreational angle. The issue becomes a lot of 1 deg base bevels are more like 2 degrees. That's too much. If one just pushes the skis around then it may be ok. But if you get used to engaging the skis edge early and getting the ski on edge, than a 2 deg base is an abomination. The ski takes too long to hook up and get into a groove to bend. Or you have to do too much movement to get it on -and off edge.

Now if you're doing rails...maybe a 2 deg base is good if you want to also have an edge to carve. As opposed to rounding (!! Gasp) the edge completely. Same perhaps with skiing trees with roots and stuff around - eastern trees.
post #18 of 25

Thanks again. 

Learn something new almost every time.  I know(and use) the 7* sidewall blending trick but had forgotten about following with the 1* higher than final side angle (4* in your example).  Time for 1 more side edge bevel guide.;)  And when I get a hold of an old pair of skis I'll practice changing the side bevel using the Panzar.  Should be fun.

post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Making steel wool^^!!
Should add that in soft snow like slush or powder it doesn't matter.

Also, as has been noted before, a true 1 deg base bevel is an excellent recreational angle. The issue becomes a lot of 1 deg base bevels are more like 2 degrees. That's too much. If one just pushes the skis around then it may be ok. But if you get used to engaging the skis edge early and getting the ski on edge, than a 2 deg base is an abomination. The ski takes too long to hook up and get into a groove to bend. Or you have to do too much movement to get it on -and off edge.

Now if you're doing rails...maybe a 2 deg base is good if you want to also have an edge to carve. As opposed to rounding (!! Gasp) the edge completely. Same perhaps with skiing trees with roots and stuff around - eastern trees.

Couldn't have said it better! 

 

:beercheer:Thumbs Up

post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

I know but $90 bones is tall for a file!:eek

You only think that because you haven't used one yet. :D 

 

After you use one the first time, you'll kick yourself for not having bought one sooner.  They cut so clean, it leaves little to no work after you file.  The extra fine is ok to use on the base bevel but because they cut so fast and the fact there is far less room for error when setting base bevel, I'm a little to paranoid to use them there and prefer the very shallow toothed Holmenkol chrystal finish files.

 

When SVST says they last a very long time, save yourself some money and trust them on it.  I didn't and I suffer from the, if a little is good a little more must be better, disease so I bought the three file set, in tandem.  Since they don't seem to wear out, I still have two pretty little new ones sitting in their case.  You're probably thinking my math is a little off because 2 sets of 3 doesn't equal 5, right?  Well, when they tell you to be careful not to drop them on a concrete floor or they'll potentially shatter, yeah, believe them on that too. :rolleyes 

post #21 of 25
I do my own edges,1 and 2 degrees.

But I talked to a number of shops here in the French Pyrenees and all do as default 0 and 0 degrees.

I never tried a zero base, but I think it should be hard to ski.

And they do this even on rental skis.

Does this make sense?
post #22 of 25
You've convinced me if I ever go to Europe not to rent. Maybe ship over my rock skis ahead of time to avoid dragging them around. If they're lost, no biggie.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

I do my own edges,1 and 2 degrees.

But I talked to a number of shops here in the French Pyrenees and all do as default 0 and 0 degrees.

I never tried a zero base, but I think it should be hard to ski.

And they do this even on rental skis.

Does this make sense?
That made sense with straight skis.
post #24 of 25
Maybe, but all skis there are shaped.
post #25 of 25

Yeah I know. It's France/Spain.

We thought it was bad here.

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