or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Dumb "Shaped Ski" Question
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dumb "Shaped Ski" Question

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

OK, so I'm gonna sound like a total rook, despite having 36 years on sticks...

 

I've been on Rossignol slalom race skis for roughly the past 10 years, Just the other day I was finally able to demo Soul 7's - wow, what a world of difference underfoot. I could immediately feel the wider width and rocker; it felt like I had no edges whatsoever, at least coming from the much narrower race ski.

 

So after a couple runs on hard pack, my question is how hard do you have to carve them to really set them on the inside edge? I couldn't really seem to find it, though I didn't know if I wasn't flexing enough or what. I simply ended up not focusing so much on it and letting them float and do their thing, feeling much more like a snowboard than a ski. Yep - I'm old school, heh.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 25
It took me a whole season to adjust to early rise/rocker. I'm still not sold on it, especially for hard pack. You could get embroiled in a long thread where we're arguing about this (well, I assume so, but I stopped looking at it weeks ago, so there may have been thread drift, but start at the beginning until you can't stand it anymore).

The width thing is part of that thread, but it's really old skinnier skis with camber (old not being straight skis, but more traditional shaped skis) vs. wide, rockered-to-some degree skis.

Then, longer running thread, same issues: http://www.epicski.com/t/129323/rant-overselling-wide-skis/0_10
post #3 of 25

it's a bad comparison, because the soul7 is a 108 freeride/powder ski that really doesn't do well on the hardpack but just goes along for the ride.  It's like saying a humvee is terrible on asphalt, and a Humvee is a like an SUV, therefore all SUVs are terrible on asphalt.

 

Before you pass judgement, you need to use the proper "all mountain" "fat" skis which are usually of the 98mm variety as the proper comparison.

post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post
 

it's a bad comparison, because the soul7 is a 108 freeride/powder ski that really doesn't do well on the hardpack but just goes along for the ride.  It's like saying a humvee is terrible on asphalt, and a Humvee is a like an SUV, therefore all SUVs are terrible on asphalt.

 

Before you pass judgement, you need to use the proper "all mountain" "fat" skis which are usually of the 98mm variety as the proper comparison.


Or try a 100mm Nordica Enforcer, which, despite some reviews calling it a ski that prefers soft snow, rails hard groomers. It's often categorized as a freeride ski, but it's really a great western all-mountain. You could ski it as an all-mountain in the east, in fact.  The Soul7, as raytseng says, is a different ski entirely.

post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post


Or try a 100mm Nordica Enforcer, which, despite some reviews calling it a ski that prefers soft snow, rails hard groomers. It's often categorized as a freeride ski, but it's really a great western all-mountain.

Finding an Enforcer in the PNW might not be easy. A lot of shops had so much inventory from last season that they ordered next to nothing for this season. Tuesday we had only 3 Enforcers left from more than 50. There should be some shops that have the new Enforcer 93 prototype to demo. Some other good skis to try would be the Atomic 90 or 100CTi, Salomon Qlab, Head Monster 88 or 98 and Kaestle MX88 or FX95HP. And certainly you would find the Rossi E100 more to your liking than the Soul 7.
post #6 of 25

As pointed out above, wide skis designed to float on pow aren't great on groomers if you love that hooked up feel.  Nothing could be more opposite from a SL ski.

 

What conditions do you typically ski on?  If you love groomers and never hit the trees, then there are a ton of fun front side options out there.  If you on occasion venture off piste, then there are good options for that as well.

post #7 of 25

I've been skiing on my K2 Pinnacle 95 on for groomers and I think the ski simply rocks. Quick and fun with the perfect blend of power. Well done K2!!

post #8 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingBurrito View Post
 

I've been skiing on my K2 Pinnacle 95 on for groomers and I think the ski simply rocks. Quick and fun with the perfect blend of power. Well done K2!!


How are they on hardpack icy'ish groomers I'm likely to encounter in the East?

post #9 of 25
I've skied them on hard western groomers and they hold just fine. Haven't been in really icy conditions yet cause we've had so much snow 😀 I think what you might give up in edge grip you really get back with a fun nimble ski that works in everything else.
post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwsurfrider View Post

 

I've been on Rossignol slalom race skis for roughly the past 10 years

What Rossignol Slalom ski? generally, when someone says they've owned a ski "for ten years" they really mean since the 90's. Are your SL skis 165cm or shorter? 

post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post
 

it's a bad comparison, because the soul7 is a 108 freeride/powder ski that really doesn't do well on the hardpack but just goes along for the ride.  It's like saying a humvee is terrible on asphalt, and a Humvee is a like an SUV, therefore all SUVs are terrible on asphalt.

 

Before you pass judgement, you need to use the proper "all mountain" "fat" skis which are usually of the 98mm variety as the proper comparison.

 

I hear you...but I wasn't asking the group about the comparison between the two skis (non-shaped SL vs fat freeride ski), I wanted to know if I was doing something wrong, in essence how hard do I have to flex them to get them up on edge on hardpack, if they do at all? Because the sensation I was feeling yesterday was that no, they don't really edge on the hardpack, but rather float like a Caddy. I just wanted to confirm if that's what they do, or if I need to be forcing them up on their edges. Thanks for the feedback.

post #12 of 25

I may have a different technique than you, but I never thought of it as flexing the freeride ski, it's already bent and often typically very little camber that you can load up unless you're going mach speed.  You instead just tip them over and put them on edge to engage the edges on a groomer, rather then flexing it over (?).  freeride skis are all about going with the flow rather than forcing it.

post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

What Rossignol Slalom ski? generally, when someone says they've owned a ski "for ten years" they really mean since the 90's. Are your SL skis 165cm or shorter? 


I want to say it's a 160cm 9S (or 9SL?), circa 2003. Apologies, I don't spend a lot of time looking at them since I've been on them for so long. I bought them from a ski rental barely used at the end of the season in '04. They have a little bit of shape to them, but still a very narrow waist as you would expect from an SL ski.

post #14 of 25

OK, that's modern enough (I was wondering if it was a 203cm 7S...) 

 

What you are most likely feeling is the extreme change in width. The Sl ski is on edge as soon as you move your big toe, the Soul7 or skis like it require some input from the pelvis before you get real edge engagement. They need to roll pretty far before the edges hook up and start feel like they are truly carving.

post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

OK, that's modern enough (I was wondering if it was a 203cm 7S...) 

 

What you are most likely feeling is the extreme change in width. The Sl ski is on edge as soon as you move your big toe, the Soul7 or skis like it require some input from the pelvis before you get real edge engagement. They need to roll pretty far before the edges hook up and start feel like they are truly carving.


OK, cool - that's what I wanted to confirm, that I just wasn't rolling them on edge enough. I didn't know if they weren't really designed with that in mind, or whether it was "operator error", heh. You're spot on: the SL skis are a lot closer to their edge, hence why they're SL skis, ha. Now it's going to be strange to go back to them for the time being (will likely pick up something like the Soul 7 during the Spring sales; also want to go even fatter and try out the K2 Seth - the Annex 118). Thanks to you and raytseng for your replies.

post #16 of 25

I demo'd Soul 7's at Whistler. The runout of the Glacier Chair was quite firm (and off camber) and they were very scary. Basically slid sideways down. The skis I brought were Sidestashes and had no trouble with the firm. My current powder skis are Atomic Automatics 117's--a lot of rocker and fairly tight radius for a ski that size, and while they don't grip like the Sidestashes they're a lot better than the Souls. The edges on the demo Souls seemed OK; I can't rule out that they were base high.My point is that all wide skis are not the same and some will work quite well on the firm, although obviously not like a race ski.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

I demo'd Soul 7's at Whistler. The runout of the Glacier Chair was quite firm (and off camber) and they were very scary. Basically slid sideways down. -

That's what I'm afraid of happening with the K2 Pinnacle 95 after seeing what the ski looked like placed flat on a table top at the ski shop. Not looking for a front-side carver but don't want any horrifying surprises either. Same fear with the Atomic Vantage 95 and Volkl 90eight and Fischer Ranger 98.

Sadly snow hasn't been happening here in the East for me to demo any of these.

post #18 of 25

Soul 7s on hard pack are like a salmon rod when trout fishing.  Like a driver when putting.  Like hiking boots on a dance floor.  They'll work, but not very well.

 

Look for something like a Rossi Pursuit or Head Supershape Rally, or equal, for the pack.

post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwsurfrider View Post
 

OK, so I'm gonna sound like a total rook, despite having 36 years on sticks...

 

I've been on Rossignol slalom race skis for roughly the past 10 years, Just the other day I was finally able to demo Soul 7's - wow, what a world of difference underfoot. I could immediately feel the wider width and rocker; it felt like I had no edges whatsoever, at least coming from the much narrower race ski.

 

So after a couple runs on hard pack, my question is how hard do you have to carve them to really set them on the inside edge? I couldn't really seem to find it, though I didn't know if I wasn't flexing enough or what. I simply ended up not focusing so much on it and letting them float and do their thing, feeling much more like a snowboard than a ski. Yep - I'm old school, heh.

Not knowing what your height, weight and skiing style is like, it is hard to know exactly what you are experiencing. I can only relate what I experienced when I got on a modern fat ski. Particularly on the groomers, if you ski them lazy, they just wander around without really ever setting an edge. You have to put a little thought into figuring out your particular ski and what it likes from you specifically. My Patrons on groomers like a little wider stance and equal weight on both feet. They like good pressure on the front of the boot and my weight just a little ahead of the turn with angulation progressing through the turn to keep that uphill ski tracking. You have to drive them more than ride them on groomers. It took a couple of days to get it worked out, but once I figured out what it was that the ski was looking for when it changed conditions, they ski very well everywhere. I've skied the Soul 7 and had a similar set of criteria to meet. Just to varying degrees. 

post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Soul 7s on hard pack are like a salmon rod when trout fishing.  Like a driver when putting.  Like hiking boots on a dance floor.  They'll work, but not very well.

 

Look for something like a Rossi Pursuit or Head Supershape Rally, or equal, for the pack.

The OP has a frontside ski--he's not looking for another. He's looking for a wider ski for the PNW. My point is that not all mid and wide skis are the same. Coming from a race ski he'd probably be happy with a Blizzard Cochise, for a more charging ski, or an Automatic 109 fo a more floaty, turny ski (neither of which I've skied myself, just the Automatic 117 and my son uses the older, stiffer cochise as a daily ski.)

post #21 of 25
NW, I don't think your question is dumb. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. A slalom ski is a carve weapon while your Soul 7 is an all Mtn ski. If you can ski the slalom ski really well and carve it, you can do similar with the Soul. I don't know what the turn radius of the Soul is but it has to be about the low 20s? So your timing and tempo need to change to carve this Soul. You need to make a more assertive move in turn transition to get across to your new edges soon enough to get them carving above or in the fall line. There are some other Soul ski geometry issues that will Require some adjustments and your stance as well-think about the tale of the ski. In short, you can carve them but they won't be as carve specific, especially in tight slalom arcs.
post #22 of 25

......... and realize that the Soul 7's will Slarve, Spin and do a myriad of combinations of ski turns off the front, center or rear of the ski and then turn them around and ski switch and do all the same turns backwards. They will glide downhill in essentially any direction you desire w/ your boots facing across or down the fall-line. Great for skiing w/ your kids and keeping an eye on them if they are uphill from ya! There's a true learning curve when switching to non-carve specific rockered skis. Take your time and experiment w/ them. They are so much fun even on the groomers.

 

...your instincts are correct in that they are more cumbersome (barring any leg abnormalities...bowed legs or knock-knees) to get on edge but once you do get them up on edge, the carve is pretty amazing and doesn't lock you in... allowing you to carve at much slower speeds and release your carve at any point during the turn, and transition into the numerous turns mentioned or even into switch position ..............

post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Finding an Enforcer in the PNW might not be easy. A lot of shops had so much inventory from last season that they ordered next to nothing for this season. Tuesday we had only 3 Enforcers left from more than 50. There should be some shops that have the new Enforcer 93 prototype to demo. Some other good skis to try would be the Atomic 90 or 100CTi, Salomon Qlab, Head Monster 88 or 98 and Kaestle MX88 or FX95HP. And certainly you would find the Rossi E100 more to your liking than the Soul 7.
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwsurfrider View Post
 

OK, so I'm gonna sound like a total rook, despite having 36 years on sticks...

 

I've been on Rossignol slalom race skis for roughly the past 10 years, Just the other day I was finally able to demo Soul 7's - wow, what a world of difference underfoot. I could immediately feel the wider width and rocker; it felt like I had no edges whatsoever, at least coming from the much narrower race ski.

 

So after a couple runs on hard pack, my question is how hard do you have to carve them to really set them on the inside edge? I couldn't really seem to find it, though I didn't know if I wasn't flexing enough or what. I simply ended up not focusing so much on it and letting them float and do their thing, feeling much more like a snowboard than a ski. Yep - I'm old school, heh.

I'd recommend a mid skinny to step into the wider realm of skiing. 75-90mm

 

Look to demo a versatile carver like a Volkl Code, or Sally X drive or a similar ride.  The wider base allows more leverage to brush or feather the edge while still almost underfoot to rail.  The nice thing about 85+ is the ski is almost as wide as the boot so off piste crusty bits are smoother than sinking the ski into boot dragging territory.  The subtle difference between carving and smearing is a spectrum of technique, butter the toast or scrape it a good versatile ski does both.

post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 

Thanks, gang, for your myriad of answers. It seems to me that I simply need more binding time to get them figured out, as well as demo'ing other skis of various sidecuts (I'd be keen to try the Rossi E88's and 100, as well as the K2 Seth). But I appreciate the confirmation that I really do need to engage them more, that they can edge, just different from the race skis I'm used to. Hell, I'm sure if I brought the 200cm MSLs out of the closet that they'd feel like strapping picnic tables to my feet after skiing on the 160cm shorty's. Point is, it's all relevant. Thanks again.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion

Gear mentioned in this thread:

EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Dumb "Shaped Ski" Question