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Static Cling

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I've been known to declare that any form of frozen water(except wet slush) is all I need to enjoy skiing.
Lately I've decided that sticky bubble gum snow kicks my butt and kills my legs.

A careful look at the issue shows the most effect from cold snow is while compressing and pivoting. The crystals are repelling against one another, the squeak under footsteps and skis is a good indicator. I notice lift ramps above the ground have the stickiest conditions.
last week my feet cramped so much I was rubbing them with liniment.
I use zipfit liners and footbeds, so boots aren't the issue. Faster lines reduce the effect, it's trees bumps and steeps with slower tight pivoty turns that are miserable.

Maybe it's just me, others on the lift don't know what I'm "complaining" about instead gush about how soft it is. I'm guessing soft means to drag tails like a rudder because that's what works best.

I sparingly use the harder waxes with graphite and vigorous brushing and out glide the rest on the cat tracks. Are there any other suggestions, currently I go to easier runs.
post #2 of 22
An appropriate stone grind and Betamix
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

An appropriate stone grind and Betamix
Thanks,
I'm wary of wax brands. I think Swix is a scam, Purl is ineffective and Wintersteiger barely works.

Maybe the blue Holmenkol is the ticket, now I just need to find it.
post #4 of 22
You're gliding on cat tracks? But there's drag elsewhere? Sounds very odd. What temperature are we talking about? Fresh snow? Man made? Old skis? New skis? The only way I can see gliding fine on cat tracks but dragging everywhere else is if the cat tracks are at a widely different altitude (or aspect) than the places you're having trouble. I've also had odd problems if fresh cold snow falls into wet snow and hasn't had traffic to smush it down. But that can usually be helped a bit by freshening the structure.
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post

Thanks,
I'm wary of wax brands. I think Swix is a scam, Purl is ineffective and Wintersteiger barely works.

Maybe the blue Holmenkol is the ticket, now I just need to find it.

Personally, I would use ch5 or nfblue over ultramix.
post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

You're gliding on cat tracks? But there's drag elsewhere? Sounds very odd. What temperature are we talking about? Fresh snow? Man made? Old skis? New skis? The only way I can see gliding fine on cat tracks but dragging everywhere else is if the cat tracks are at a widely different altitude (or aspect) than the places you're having trouble. I've also had odd problems if fresh cold snow falls into wet snow and hasn't had traffic to smush it down. But that can usually be helped a bit by freshening the structure.
Outgliding others is not "fine" gliding, it's merely incrementally faster.
Smashing snow down is one thing, compressing and twisting is another. Slow and tight turns are the most affected from the static cling. Racing is not slow or tight, but wax tech may help.
Thanks though
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post


Outgliding others is not "fine" gliding, it's merely incrementally faster.
Smashing snow down is one thing, compressing and twisting is another. Slow and tight turns are the most affected from the static cling. Racing is not slow or tight, but wax tech may help.
Thanks though

http://www.dominatorwax.com/products

 

Look at Q7, Q6 and Q5 under overlays!

post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

http://www.dominatorwax.com/products

Look at Q7, Q6 and Q5 under overlays!
Thanks
It appears that the Qs are overlays, and they're rated to single digits.

I'd be tempted to go for the Psycho arctic snow rated to -5, even then subzero snow is not uncommon in double digits.
I'm thinking a soft brass brush may do me better than more hard waxes in the Ole wax box.

But thanks for the suggestion, I may resort to Dominator if the new brush doesn't do the trick. I see a lot of good words about Dominator here.

Looking at weather data, it seems high humidity and dew points lead to staticy crystals, but I may be wrong.
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

http://www.dominatorwax.com/products

Look at Q7, Q6 and Q5 under overlays!
Thanks
It appears that the Qs are overlays, and they're rated to single digits.

I'd be tempted to go for the Psycho arctic snow rated to -5, even then subzero snow is not uncommon in double digits.
I'm thinking a soft brass brush may do me better than more hard waxes in the Ole wax box.

But thanks for the suggestion, I may resort to Dominator if the new brush doesn't do the trick. I see a lot of good words about Dominator here.

Looking at weather data, it seems high humidity and dew points lead to staticy crystals, but I may be wrong.


Yea, no matter what wax you use you need to brush off every last drop.  The brush is in order before you go too many other directions.  Other than that a heavy deep structure will be slow as "S" in cold dry snow.  If that's the case you may want to use some steel to flatten out the structure a bit too.

 

If you have not seen my scrape and brush deal you might want to see it.  Seems you have some experience, but maybe nice to see how someone else does it too.

post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post


Yea, no matter what wax you use you need to brush off every last drop.  The brush is in order before you go too many other directions.  Other than that a heavy deep structure will be slow as "S" in cold dry snow.  If that's the case you may want to use some steel to flatten out the structure a bit too.

If you have not seen my scrape and brush deal you might want to see it.  Seems you have some experience, but maybe nice to see how someone else does it too.

Thanks
My local shop has a fancy new machine with an uber anal supervisor, the finish from their $65 tune is a true work of art, fine grain in a lovely chevron pattern. They charge another $50 for a hotbox, something I need to make for my own use.

But I think hard wax fills the pores in the lovely grind and a good brush can help.
post #11 of 22
All of these methods are great if you have the foresight to prepare and wax for the day. On the days you are off, or just plain lazy or need to help a friend that is (though I suspect most my friends are off or think I am). I carry a small chuck of beeswax, and a package of hotel soap (as that's what's it's really good for). The bees wax works in almost all conditions as a last minute savour, won't help you win the medals, but will prevent you from being last. The soap for the wet snow days and it works extremely well, downside good for about 20 to 30 seconds of ultimate rush after that we'll still helps a bit but it can make the difference between stuck in the slush or still moving.

Correct solution, prep and wax correctly as mentioned above!

Otherwise, two little chunks of solution just in case you need them to get by, till you can do the above.
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

You're gliding on cat tracks? But there's drag elsewhere? Sounds very odd. What temperature are we talking about? Fresh snow? Man made? Old skis? New skis? The only way I can see gliding fine on cat tracks but dragging everywhere else is if the cat tracks are at a widely different altitude (or aspect) than the places you're having trouble. I've also had odd problems if fresh cold snow falls into wet snow and hasn't had traffic to smush it down. But that can usually be helped a bit by freshening the structure.

 

 

It isn't exactly clear where he is -  I suspect he's on cold new snow with a lot of high-humidity air in it.    Cat tracks glide OK because the air has been compressed out.     Ramps and things built above ground have drained off any excess liquid, are marginally colder than his skis and therefore stick to his skis.    
 

 

I strongly suspect he's not getting static AND high-humidity effects at the same time.    I suspect he's getting what we get here in the M-A when cold snow from guns is blown in spotty sections over natural snow - cold snow clings and ices onto warmer, wetter skis.   It can be a worse yank than crossing a grassy spot.

There's an easy way to test my idea - use a highly lubricating liquid  like Zardoz or Javelin black ice  http://javelinsport.com/shop/javelin-black-ice/  as a finishing layer on top of his usual cold wax.    If it's static, the additive won't help at all.    If it's warm skis crossing over cold snow spots, the additive is about the only thing short of high-fluoro cold wax that might work.



 

post #13 of 22

@ Buttinski

 

After reading this thread there are a few misconceptions we can clear up and also clarify a few of the almost correct observations.

 

First, wax need to be harder than the snow, so if you have soft wax (like yellow) gliding on cold aggressive crystals you will be slow until the wax wears off and then you can feel slightly faster for a time. That is, until your base is abraded from the dry friction and the lack of lubrication (wax). If you have been skiing on an un-waxed ski for any significant length of time, the base becomes abraded (think sand paper) and in conditions such as you felt, the ski can then become almost un-skiable due to the dry friction from the crystals rubbing against the abraded base.

 

The second culprit, in addition to the dry friction, is static friction that builds up and acts similar to what you feel when you pull your socks out of the dryer when they cling together. Anti-static additives are added to waxes applied with an iron and they are in waxes such as Bullet, Graphite Zoom and anti-stats are also in many quickly applied rub-on waxes such as Race Rocket, Butter and Momentium no-iron waxes.

 

Here is the mantra for the conditions discussed here:

 

1) Wax needs to be harder than the snow crystal so when in doubt wax colder (or harder)

2) For dry cold snow (and in some other conditions we can address later) you need to use a wax with an anti-static additive for optimum glide. Think Zoom Graphite and Bullet

3) You need to have a base prep like Renew in the base -- which acts as a binder (think primer) -- to hold the hard waxes on to the base.

 

I will watch this thread for other questions as I believe there is much more to discuss here.

 

Happy gliding ... on cold dry snow!

post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post
 

@ Buttinski

 

After reading this thread there are a few misconceptions we can clear up and also clarify a few of the almost correct observations.

 

First, wax need to be harder than the snow, so if you have soft wax (like yellow) gliding on cold aggressive crystals you will be slow until the wax wears off and then you can feel slightly faster for a time. That is, until your base is abraded from the dry friction and the lack of lubrication (wax). If you have been skiing on an un-waxed ski for any significant length of time, the base becomes abraded (think sand paper) and in conditions such as you felt, the ski can then become almost un-skiable due to the dry friction from the crystals rubbing against the abraded base.

 

The second culprit, in addition to the dry friction, is static friction that builds up and acts similar to what you feel when you pull your socks out of the dryer when they cling together. Anti-static additives are added to waxes applied with an iron and they are in waxes such as Bullet, Graphite Zoom and anti-stats are also in many quickly applied rub-on waxes such as Race Rocket, Butter and Momentium no-iron waxes.

 

 

Here is the mantra for the conditions discussed here:

 

1) Wax needs to be harder than the snow crystal so when in doubt wax colder (or harder)

2) For dry cold snow (and in some other conditions we can address later) you need to use a wax with an anti-static additive for optimum glide. Think Zoom Graphite and Bullet

3) You need to have a base prep like Renew in the base -- which acts as a binder (think primer) -- to hold the hard waxes on to the base.

 

I will watch this thread for other questions as I believe there is much more to discuss here.

 

Happy gliding ... on cold dry snow!

What about the Overlays?

post #15 of 22

^ Butter & Race Rocket are overlays.

post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

What about the Overlays?

I understand you didn't necessarily say Fluoro or even high Fluoro overlays but it's always been my understanding overlays are more geared toward high to high-ish humidity conditions and powder overlays for the same as well as giving better durability.  I've pretty much always been told you don't really want much Fluoro on your base in cold, dry snow conditions but I'll certainly defer to what Tom says on this and look forward to his comments.

 

Aman, I respect your opinion so feel free to comment with your thoughts as well.


Edited by MoJo23 - 12/29/15 at 9:08pm
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post

@ Buttinski

After reading this thread there are a few misconceptions we can clear up and also clarify a few of the almost correct observations.

First, wax need to be harder than the snow, so if you have soft wax (like yellow) gliding on cold aggressive crystals you will be slow until the wax wears off and then you can feel slightly faster for a time. That is, until your base is abraded from the dry friction and the lack of lubrication (wax). If you have been skiing on an un-waxed ski for any significant length of time, the base becomes abraded (think sand paper) and in conditions such as you felt, the ski can then become almost un-skiable due to the dry friction from the crystals rubbing against the abraded base.

The second culprit, in addition to the dry friction, is static friction that builds up and acts similar to what you feel when you pull your socks out of the dryer when they cling together. Anti-static additives are added to waxes applied with an iron and they are in waxes such as Bullet, Graphite Zoom and anti-stats are also in many quickly applied rub-on waxes such as Race Rocket, Butter and Momentium no-iron waxes.

Here is the mantra for the conditions discussed here:

1) Wax needs to be harder than the snow crystal so when in doubt wax colder (or harder)
2) For dry cold snow (and in some other conditions we can address later) you need to use a wax with an anti-static additive for optimum glide. Think Zoom Graphite and Bullet
3) You need to have a base prep like Renew in the base -- which acts as a binder (think primer) -- to hold the hard waxes on to the base.

I will watch this thread for other questions as I believe there is much more to discuss here.

Happy gliding ... on cold dry snow!
Thanks,
this is an idea I found lacking in the epic searches. My buddies all proudly ride em hard and put em away wet. Their bases are bone dry as a matter of principle, I have no idea how they can enjoy skiing on scratchy bases. Most declare that they WANT slow skis.
I think my primary issue is incomplete removal of the applied hard wax. I wax daily or almost. After a good brushing of the dirty base I crayon it over the p-tex after filling deep gouges.
Then buff and cork, this cements it to the previous coatings pretty well.
Then if the base grind is obscured after brushing I'll cold scrape and brush again, lather rinse repeat.

The only graphite I can find at local shops is the Wintersteiger and it seems to help.

FWIW, it is new snow falling in cold and humid conditions, the dew point hovers 2 degrees below the air temperature well below 0 F, these values are provided by the avalanche.org weather stations.
post #18 of 22

@ Atomicman

 

Jacques is right, as is Mojo23.

 

Butter and Rocket (regular and Race) can be considered rub-on's and do go "over" scraped and brushed hot waxes you normally apply; so they are indeed overlays by definition. But you mentioned the Q5, Q6 and Q7 series. Since the Q series are pure fluoro blocs that have unsurpassed wet friction release properties (aka capillary friction release) they are not what one would use in cold dry snows for best performance since there is not much moisture (wet) friction to help reduce and, in this case, would also be costly to use when they are not needed.

 

BTW the Q series is for competition; however, if your race is to be the first one to the powder, there might be those keen to win that competition and would use Q products (within their appropriate range) for... ahem, pleasure.

 

There are anti-stats additives in the Q5 and Q7 blocs to help address static friction in new and old snow (Q5 is for New Snow and Q7 is for Old Snow)  but many competitors and technicians simply use Q6 -- which does not have an anti-stat added -- for all conditions within the Q series range and many times they will rub Race Rocket New or Old Snow (or even Butter) and then Q6 and rub in together to get a similar anti-static effect.

 

Also, to add to the benefit list of anti-static additives, it is important to know that static charges attract dirt particles as you glide and a base waxed with just clear wax (meaning red, blue, white or Lime from any manufacturer) will absorb dirt and pollen (from the nearby trees) as well as attract oil and grease (from the snow cats).

 

If you need graphite waxes, please look for online dealers like Race Place, Artech, Jans.com or Tognar tools and ask for Zoom Graphite or Bullet. If you are a tech head and like to mix your waxes then look for the FG series; FG07 is for brutal cold, FG77 (my favorite) is for cold and FG88 is for warmer new snows. These additives can be added (one to one is best) to any "clear" wax (within their appropriate range) to reduce static, repel dirt and keep your skis free from pollen, grease and oil accumulation.

 

Hope this all helps!

 

Tom

post #19 of 22

^ Tom is the man!  Believe him.  He knows the Dominator line like the back of his hand as he should! 

 

My favorite anti-static for old snow?  SRB-32.  That stuff will rock your world!

 

BTW @Dominator Tom, I always wonder about some of the names given.  SRB?  Sintered Race Base?   All I know is it works!

post #20 of 22

Solid Rocket Booster

post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post
 

Solid Rocket Booster


Oh yea!  No wonder!  I love it!

post #22 of 22

Thanks Tom, Actually, I knew that, I forgot the Q5 & 7 are for wetter conditions not dry snow!

I should say has anti-static but is for wetter conditions
Edited by Atomicman - 12/31/15 at 8:34am
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