or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › I hate the singles line (lift line etiquette)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

I hate the singles line (lift line etiquette) - Page 5

post #121 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 


The better question is "Why should groups willing to split up be able to use the "singles only" line get up the mountain faster than groups that don't split up and waste space at the top of the mountain waiting for their friends?"

 

Again, this is only about etiquette, not policy.  Nobody will call you out on it.  Call it a guilty pleasure, but not accepted as totally cool by everyone on the mountain.

 

We could also make EVERY line a singles line so nobody has any potential advantage.  Heck, that's the way it is to get in to any venue, theme park rides, or shopping checkout.  A quad would have a bunch of one person wide lines that funnel out to four at the end.  Everybody moves at the same pace and everyone has to find their friends at the top.

Not sure I completely understand that hypothetical question you pose. Probably just not reading the wording the way you meant it to sound.

Space has nothing to do with anything, Everyone is in some space somewhere. And people (groups) who split to use single lines end up waiting for each other to. And still they do it because they usually still get up faster which imo just goes show how it is a form of line cutting. And for those who didn't split but were simply too many for one chair and now wait for each other, they are even further apart many times because of the whole singles line game playing thing the others are pulling off. So not only do they get cut in front of but then the second half gets cut in front of causing them to wait even longer to re-group at the top.

post #122 of 361

My take is that a group willing to split up and not sit with their friends and family on a 15 minute lift ride should be able to use the singles line. Their advantage is getting up faster but the disadvantage is not being able to chat with your friends/family. You take the risk of sitting next to a complete nutball who talks your ear off about conspiracy theories regarding climate change (just happened to me but I was a legit single).

post #123 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollin View Post
 

Not sure I completely understand that hypothetical question you pose. Probably just not reading the wording the way you meant it to sound.

Space has nothing to do with anything, Everyone is in some space somewhere. And people (groups) who split to use single lines end up waiting for each other to. And still they do it because they usually still get up faster which imo just goes show how it is a form of line cutting. And for those who didn't split but were simply too many for one chair and now wait for each other, they are even further apart many times because of the whole singles line game playing thing the others are pulling off. So not only do they get cut in front of but then the second half gets cut in front of causing them to wait even longer to re-group at the top.

 

Groups that split up and use the singles line stand around waiting for the rest of their clan at the top near the offloading area where space is limited... in addition to the snowboarders sitting around up there messing with their bindings.  It can clog things up if there too many people standing around at the top of the mountain..

 

post #124 of 361
As someone just mentioned, the theoretical most efficient way to do things is to form all singles lines. We live in the real world where people want to chat with friends, and people are going to try to maneuver themselves to go with friends anyway, but the point for "singles moves faster" is that some people are willing to exchange sociability for line efficiency. They get to go up quicker, yes, but the line benefits too from a traffic engineering standpoint.
 
There are times when the maze is at least partially filled and there's no singles line so you'll often see 3s go up on a quad even with no one "missing" their cue. If the singles line is kept filled through some sort of incentivization (i.e. you get to go up faster if you break up your group), you make it far easier to reach the max uploading potential and thus reduce the wait in the maze.
 
Point being, I don't care whether singles "deserve" to go faster in some karmic, moral sense, but I do think there should be incentive placed on going single. This is especially evident in "family" times such as holidays where a higher percentage of people are riding in groups

 

And from an economic standpoint, the singles line balances out (if it starts to get too full, people will stop breaking up their groups). 

post #125 of 361
It sounds like a mountain thing. Some mountains have organized lifties, line corrals, off loading zones, and then there is where @crgildart skis.

Lines are not a normal thing here except right now, Christmas week. But Chair 1 manages to have two singles lines, both of which will be WAY LONGER than the groups line. They have lifties managing them AND everyone here is polite and civilized, alternating the feed. When you get to the top, there are two lifts emptying skiers, yet there is a ton of room to get out of the way. And guess what, if you're standing around at the top of Chair 7 (where it seems to happen more) the lifty will tell you to clear the area. Same at top of Chair 6, a bunny hill. The lifty will tell you to move. And there are signs telling you to move, with arrows. The fact that there is agida about this says either the mountain is incompetent or you'd be pissed about whatever you'd be doing.

If the mountain doesn't have space at the top, they need to do some grading next summer. Oh, wait, they'd lose a foot of vertical.
post #126 of 361

Just a note to the tangent discussion.   Tahoe has a lot of resorts with dozens of dozens of lifts.  I'll admit to not being at most of the resorts over the last decade that may have new lifts but over the decades have visited all of them and from what I vaguely recall, there is just one lift with an obvious issue sometimes of inadequate space in the off loading zone.  Others can chime in if there are others, thank you.   Thus am relating that I don't believe crgildart's argument applies in our region.

 

The one lift it does is at the KW ski area at the top of Chair 10 Wagon Wheel aka The Wall.   From the top of that lift, a slope drops north at a right angle to a quick split that continues north on the ridge line to XX drops or swings at a steeper gradient back under the lift.  People can stop to tend to gear at the split however most continue around down on the ramp before doing so.   The ramp slope is steep enough one needs edge slide down to a small platform where skiers then must drop down a very steep often unpleasantly rutted few feet before being able to escape right or left on traverses to less steep slopes with less skiers and boarders in the way.  The problem is at the end platform.  Few continue out along the ridge so most end up at the platform.  For many the initial drop to escape is scary so the scene is similar to crowded penguins dropping off into Antarctic seas with leopard seals about in the water.   Those at the edge can become frozen while those behind them become impatient tending to psychologically push those at the edge off even if they don't want to.  It can back up so the small area of attending to gear becomes inadequate.  In any case that situation has nothing to do with groups loading at the bottom but rather frightened skiers and boarders.  And yes not a few end up taking long long slides.

post #127 of 361

Just call out, single and point...... you know,  INTERACT

post #128 of 361

The only time that chairs with empty seats is a problem is when there are people lined up and waiting to ride.  During such times there are many ways that the lifitees can manage groups if different sizes to fill empty seats with our without a "singles" line.  When the line is packed there will still be plenty of actual singles to fill one off empty seats without groups poaching the singles line.  It just moves faster without the groups pretending to be single for a shorter wait.  I've NEVER seen even a pretty short lift line, 3 minute wait, with NO singles or not enough to fill every empty seat.

 

As for the offloading area, many of the people now claiming that offload areas aren't a problem scoff at snowboarders that stop there to tighten their bindings.  Our arguments for or against things are tainted by our own selfish motives. 

 

Fact of the matter is that some will see it as poor etiquette for groups to leverage the singles only line regardless of economic or engineering principles.  This thread is about etiquette, not whether or not the signs are right or wrong.

 

It seems to me that the ORIGINAL intent and design for the singles line is an avenue for people skiing solo to find empty seats on chairs so they don't clog up the main group lines. What it has become is a somewhat secret express lane for savvy groups of skiers to leverage and get up the mountain quicker than other groups waiting their turn in the group line  I bet if there were a sign at the front of the corral suggesting groups could ride up quicker as singles in singles lines all hell would break loose.

 

Edit to add the last part


Edited by crgildart - 12/28/15 at 10:37am
post #129 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

The only time that chairs with empty seats is a problem is when there are people lined up and waiting to ride.  During such times there are many ways that the lifitees can manage groups if different sizes to fill empty seats with our without a "singles" line.  When the line is packed there will still be plenty of actual singles to fill one off empty seats without groups poaching the singles line.  It just moves faster without the groups pretending to be single for a shorter wait.  I've NEVER seen even a pretty short lift line, 3 minute wait, with NO singles or not enough to fill every empty seat.

 

As for the offloading area, many of the people now claiming that offload areas aren't a problem scoff at snowboarders that stop there to tighten their bindings.  Our arguments for or against things are tainted by our own selfish motives. 

 

Fact of the matter is that some will see it as poor etiquette for groups to leverage the singles only line regardless of economic or engineering principles.  This thread is about etiquette, not whether or not the signs are right or wrong.

 

It's rare that I'm bothered at the top unless somebody has decided their skis/board needs to go perpendicular to the flow of traffic while they wait (they're probably also the ones chilling out just below the eye-line of that roller in front of me). Maybe it's just the mountains I go to tend to have plenty of space to wait and buckle boots, though. 

 

Oh, also on the new 6 person lifts if the right seats need to go left and vice versa that can create some evasive action, but it's not really anyone's fault.

post #130 of 361

I usually go into the doubles line as a single and pick up someone at the singles line as they empty out. The single usually likes this and I go through the double quickly. Never had a problem with that.

post #131 of 361

While it is clearly "legal" to split your group up into singles and re-form at the top, I'd be embarrassed if my kids did this at our local hill.  It just seems inconsiderate and antisocial.


Edited by hirustler - 12/28/15 at 11:36am
post #132 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 


The better question is "Why should groups willing to split up be able to use the "singles only" line get up the mountain faster than groups that don't split up and waste space at the top of the mountain waiting for their friends?"

 

Again, this is only about etiquette, not policy.  Nobody will call you out on it.  Call it a guilty pleasure, but not accepted as totally cool by everyone on the mountain.

 

We could also make EVERY line a singles line so nobody has any potential advantage.  Heck, that's the way it is to get in to any venue, theme park rides, or shopping checkout.  A quad would have a bunch of one person wide lines that funnel out to four at the end.  Everybody moves at the same pace and everyone has to find their friends at the top.

 

If it were easier to navigate on skis, an amusement park style back-and-forth line would actually be the best solution. Everyone then gets to ride based on when they arrived at the lift. But then everyone would have to be willing to take their turn and not necessarily ride with the folks they're skiing with.

 

That would probably make the resort move toward something more like we have now, where if you are willing to split up, you can use the singles line. Otherwise you use a group line.

 

Also, much like I don't think it's a breach of etiquette to use the singles line as a group, I also don't think it's a breach to wait up top as long as I'm out of the way. Maybe I haven't encountered places so busy it matters, but I can't think of a place where I would even notice people "wasting space" at the top, as long as they are courteous and move to an out of the way spot for folks who aren't waiting around. 

post #133 of 361

Man glad I haven't really had a problem. Granted I primarily only ski weekdays when the majority of chairs go up with empty spaces.

 

Every now and then I feel a little out of place jumping on with a group but it's fine most of the time. I'm sure some people probably dislike me at times because I'll ninja my way on to fill a blank seat when there is a lot of confusion but in fairness you should expect an extra when your group is one short of a full chair on a busy day. I do wish that groups would stay together though and quit piddling around. I feel like that's the biggest source of confusion.

post #134 of 361
When clog-ups happen at the top of a lift I don't get the impression that the main culprit is people waiting for the rest of their group from the singles line. Just as often it seems like the group is all there and they are just too clueless to move out of the way.
post #135 of 361

Well, if it is good etiquette for groups to break up and utilize the singles lane then everyone should be in favor of resort signage at the entrance to the corral encouraging such good etiquette right?  It's laughable to suggest we do it for the greater good of all skiers to fill empty seats.  There are always enough singles to fill empty seats without groups doing that.  On a busy day when lines are long most people and all the liftees do quite a bit to ensure all seats are filled.  Usually the only empty seats happen when someone slips or fails at the bullwheel when the chair is coming around.  Then the next chair is often going up with only the fool that missed the cue to load the char they were supposed to be on hahahaha. 

 

Groups in the singles line is just a neat trick practiced by a select few of the more savvy skiers to get up the mountain quicker than people that aren't aware the trick is an option... because the signs don't seem to encourage or seem to even allow that option. 

 

Pretty sure most folks that ski in groups and utilize the singles line would prefer that resorts NOT post highly visible signage encouraging other groups to also poach the singles line.

 

In the end it's a low profile advantage utilized by those in the know, i.e. a sorta secret express lane.  People that are truly skiing solo get irked when they see groups filing in to the singles lines ahead of them but nobody else cares because they aren't aware it is happening.

post #136 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Well, if it is good etiquette for groups to break up and utilize the singles lane then everyone should be in favor of resort signage at the entrance to the corral encouraging such good etiquette right? 

 

Nobody said its preferred or that the resort needs to encourage groups to use the singles line. Just that it's not bad etiquette to do so. Those are two different things.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Groups in the singles line is just a neat trick practiced by a select few of the more savvy skiers to get up the mountain quicker than people that aren't aware the trick is an option... because the signs don't seem to encourage or seem to even allow that option. 

 

Again, I've never thought the meaning or intent of signage for the singles line was "you are not allowed to be part of a group". It just means you intend to ride as a single. Nothing more implied IMO. So they completely allow that option. I'd guess most folks take it that way? I'd be surprised if they didn't. (I.e. if I walked up and asked a group if they'd like to use the singles line, I'd assume the answer of "no, we want to ride up together" would be way more common than, "no, we're not allowed since we're a group.")

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Pretty sure most folks that ski in groups and utilize the singles line would prefer that resorts NOT post highly visible signage encouraging other groups to also poach the singles line.

 

I wouldn't ever call it poaching, due to the negative implications. It's fine. If there was a sign saying "groups are free to use the singles line, but must ride as singles", I'd be 100% OK with that.

post #137 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

 

I wouldn't ever call it poaching, due to the negative implications. It's fine. If there was a sign saying "groups are free to use the singles line, but must ride as singles", I'd be 100% OK with that.

The only reason it is faster is because most people skiing in groups don't realize it is an option, and a faster one at that. If this was common knowledge the advantage would quickly disappear.  I'm betting that this discussion has enlightened several people to this neat trick that weren't aware of it previously. 

 

Again, it is a loophole being leveraged, not the most proper etiquette.  Proper etiquette would be groups in the group line and singles in the singles line. 

 

There are quite a few people that would really be out of sorts if the groups ability to leverage the singles line was common knowledge with big signs at the front of the corral.  Again, that would totally destroy the advantages gained with it not being common knowledge.  That low profile and element of secrecy alone makes it a little shady and not great etiquette.

post #138 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

The only reason it is faster is because most people skiing in groups don't realize it is an option, and a faster one at that. If this was common knowledge the advantage would quickly disappear.  I'm betting that this discussion has enlightened several people to this neat trick that weren't aware of it previously. 

Again, it is a loophole being leveraged, not the most proper etiquette.  Proper etiquette would be groups in the group line and singles in the singles line. 

I would be shocked to find that this was true. I think everybody knows it's an option. I'd bet 90% or more realize it's a generally quicker option. I think the main reason more people don't do it is that they want to stick with their buddies and chat. This preference is what keeps it quicker.
post #139 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by UllrIsLord View Post


I would be shocked to find that this was true. I think everybody knows it's an option. I'd bet 90% or more realize it's a generally quicker option. I think the main reason more people don't do it is that they want to stick with their buddies and chat. This preference is what keeps it quicker.


I'd say that 90% of serious skiers already know it is an option.  Most average skiers only see it for what it was designed to be... It was designed to be a mechanism to facilitate people skiing solo  joining up with groups more easily than having to beg others directly or ride solo to the scorn of all.  It wasn't designed as a mechanism to split up existing groups and get them to the bullwheel faster than other groups waiting their turn in the proper group line.


Edited by crgildart - 12/28/15 at 1:43pm
post #140 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

The only reason it is faster is because most people skiing in groups don't realize it is an option, and a faster one at that. If this was common knowledge the advantage would quickly disappear.  I'm betting that this discussion has enlightened several people to this neat trick that weren't aware of it previously. 

 

Again, it is a loophole being leveraged, not the most proper etiquette.  Proper etiquette would be groups in the group line and singles in the singles line. 

 

There are quite a few people that would really be out of sorts if the groups ability to leverage the singles line was common knowledge with big signs at the front of the corral.  Again, that would totally destroy the advantages gained with it not being common knowledge.  That low profile and element of secrecy alone makes it a little shady and not great etiquette.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UllrIsLord View Post


I would be shocked to find that this was true. I think everybody knows it's an option. I'd bet 90% or more realize it's a generally quicker option. I think the main reason more people don't do it is that they want to stick with their buddies and chat. This preference is what keeps it quicker.

 

Well I think we've reached the going around in circles point here... but I don't think a group using the singles line is bad etiquette, I wouldn't at all call it a loophole, I don't think it inherently is meant to be some kind of advantage, and I agree with UllrIsLord that I'd be surprised is most folks don't use the line simply because they want to ride up together; Not because they think it's somehow not allowed or poor etiquette. 

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

post #141 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

 

 

 

 I agree with UllrIsLord that I'd be surprised is most folks don't use the line simply because they want to ride up together

 

 

Didn't you post earlier that you didn't realize it was an option until recently?  Most savvy skiers know both options so yes, if they don't use it it is because they want to be sure that they ride together.  As for the average holiday break skier, when it is most crowded.. most do not realize it is an option and those of us that do would like to keep it that way, present company included.  I'll totally poach the singles line with friends when it's crazy busy.  But, I do think it is a bit boorish... but I don't really care.  I'll take that shortcut when it saves me and my friend 20 minutes in line with no real repucussions other than knowing we took a short cut others aren't aware of..and aren't going out of our way to share hahahaha

 

Again though the singles line was designed to match people skiing solo, AKA "singles" up with groups... so people without a group can more easily join one.  If you're using it as a group to get up the mountain quicker that is most definitely a loophole around the original design and intent of the concept.  Does anybody else care?  Not really as long as they aren't right behind the group doing it at any particular moment.


Edited by crgildart - 12/28/15 at 1:50pm
post #142 of 361
you know whats even more bothersome than singles lines issues, are the morons in the regular lines who have no sense of how to fairly merge. Just to use one small example - lets say its a double chair and you have a front row of doubles 5 wide in lines (for sake of discussion numbered 1 through 5). The group far left (#1) goes and then next (#2) and then next till the 5th group, but then what often happens is idiots (in line #4) constantly and conveniently think they are next when the routine is suppose to head back over to number #1. I have even seen lift attendants make this mistake. You cant go from 1 thru 5 and then call 4 next. You of course must start on 1 again.  Even during mergers that take place further back in the lines where 6 lines merge to 4 and 4 lines merge into make 2 lines. Its amazing how people get conveniently stupid at these areas. /The bottom line is that too many people are simply selfish, all about nothing but themselves, and lack respect and courtesy.  I think some people will step on their own mothers to gain something. Lift line issues go much further than just discussing etiquettes of singles lines.
But etiquettes in itself everywhere are hard to find. From the skiing on the slopes themselves to the squatters on the lodge tables (not to mention parked gear and bags),  to the lift lines , to the friggin parking lot, bathrooms etc. I think all people who cheat, circumnavigate, lack any etiquettes, respect and common courtesy should (by some natural event) have to walk around with blue faces. You cut line, you get blue face, you offer no courtesy to others in the lodge, you get blue face. You ski with no regard for those around you, you get blue face. Do things (anything) in such ways as to take advantage of others and intentionally fail to display respect and courtesy and instead make it all about yourself like no one else counts, you get blue face. It lasts for six weeks and only goes away as you slowly earn your way back to proper behavioral etiquettes.
post #143 of 361
So... It's not just crgildart that finds skiing such a constant source of irritation... Why do you all do it? Better to stay home. I know the lines would be shorter.
post #144 of 361

Hope no one expects the lift ops to be in their best form new years day. I remember a NY day at Alpine where the line manager on Summit 6 just stood there in a daze as the crowds went around her, somehow managing to fill the chairs.

 

Crgildart--it should be clear to you, but apparently isn't--that a lot of us, dare I say a majority of us, seem to think that groups riding in the single line and singles joining groups in the group line are OK, as long as the chairs get filled, people don't cut the line or try to pass, and everyone waits their turn, regardless of which line they're in. You don't get to make the rules of etiquette--that requires some degree of consensus. When people start making their own rules people start getting irritated, angry, and aggressive, which serves no useful purpose. Other people, sometimes lots of other people, are part of resort skiing, and it's important to recognize that when things are crowded each of us is just as much to blame as those "others" whom we perceive to be not as local, not as entitled, and not as core as we are. (Guy once told me it was ok to cut the line because he skied 100 days a year).

 

Now as far as signs at the corral telling people whether or not they can use the singles line--do you really think we need more signs, especially for something so unimportant? There are more important  things that should be signed -- like the sign they used to have at Mt Rose--No dogs, No sledding, No mullets. 

post #145 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

So... It's not just crgildart that finds skiing such a constant source of irritation... Why do you all do it? Better to stay home. I know the lines would be shorter.


Winner winner chicken dinner!  I'd go skiing but there is no skiing here right now..  And I never meant to say it bothers me, just mentioned that some see it as poor etiquette and provided logical reasons why..  It really doesn't bother me any more than anyone else being ahead of me in line for any reason..

post #146 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post

 

Now as far as signs at the corral telling people whether or not they can use the singles line--do you really think we need more signs, especially for something so unimportant? There are more important  things that should be signed -- like the sign they used to have at Mt Rose--No dogs, No sledding, No mullets. 

No, other than pointing out the tactic here I'm all for keeping this trick under the radar of the tourists.  Again.  What do you believe the original purpose of the singles line and the sign that says "singles only" is?  It is to separate singles needing to find a group from groups that have already formed.  We're diverting from that design to get ourselves up the mountain faster.  The seats would still be filled on busy days without us doing this but we'd have to wait longer.

post #147 of 361
No, it's to tell you you can't ride the chair with your buddy if you get in this line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

What do you believe the original purpose of the singles line and the sign that says "singles only" is?  It is to separate singles needing to find a group from groups that have already formed. 
post #148 of 361

I can't figure out for the life of me why it would be bad etiquette for a group to break up in order to take advantage of a shorter wait in the singles line.  The singles line isn't intended to allow lonely skiers to get up the mountain quicker.  It is intended to keep the chairs fully loaded and running as efficiently as possible.  Without the singles line the lifties would spend all their time trying to sort out the singles that make their way to the front of the line without finding a group to hook up with.  Kind of elitist for a single skier to believe they have the right to move through the lift line quicker than a non-single skier.  As a matter of fact, if a lift queue was working as efficiently as possible it should take roughly the same amount of time to get through the single line as it does to get through the group line because everyone would take the fastest option available.  As many have stated, the single line tends to move quicker only because many people prefer to ride with their group, or some people just don't realize they can split up and utilize the singles line.  It has nothing to do with singles being special.  If you don't want to wait in lines like everyone else go back country, cat or heli skiing.

 

I suppose if we really want to talk about etiquette we could address those who drive up to the mountain as singles and take up an entire parking space in a lot that is already half the size it needs to be.  However, I'm guilty of that from time to time as well so let's not go there either.

post #149 of 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollin View Post
 

Kind of irrelevant imo. A merge on a road has nothing to do with a singles line. 

 

I know it's not the same...just thought there might be an overlap.  Carry on.


Edited by Abox - 12/28/15 at 3:10pm
post #150 of 361
99.9% of the time all has worked well when I use a single line usually asking "may I join you?" Once though when about to board the 8 passenger sky ship at Killington midstation, one of the 3 teens inside - laughing - pulled the doors shut as I was about to get in. Laughing with them I followed it to the point of door latch then lifted their skis off the door. Yes - singles lines can be rewarding!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › I hate the singles line (lift line etiquette)