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Causes of Wedging on Short Turns - Page 2

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartnyc View Post
 

 

 

 

Question 1: other than the pole check, should my upper-body stay silent as I'm doing the above "pedaling" motion? As I mentioned before, I'm used to throwing my body down the hill towards the direction of my little toe (old outside ski) to get the proper incline simultaneous to increasing edge angle. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be developing sufficient inclination unless I throw my body across (I don't want to be stuck in that banana over-angulated at turn entry pose). I worry that relying on knees and ankles to create inclination will only lead to the ugly banana pose of over counter-angulation too early on in the turn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep tipping the feet and relaxing the new inside leg and the angles will increase.  As for the upper body,  angulation (balancing on the new outside leg)should

always  be in proportion to the tipping.  It's about balancing.    As you are learning, there may be a chance of having things out of proportion,  that doesn't diminish the requirement of appropriate  upper body  balancing demands.    Excessive  hip counter rotation without commensurate ski tipping angles is no more appropriate than lower body inclination without appropriate upper body counter balancing movements.      YM 

post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Keep tipping the feet and relaxing the new inside leg and the angles will increase.  As for the upper body,  angulation (balancing on the new outside leg)should

always  be in proportion to the tipping.  It's about balancing.    As you are learning, there may be a chance of having things out of proportion,  that doesn't diminish the requirement of appropriate  upper body  balancing demands.    Excessive  hip counter rotation without commensurate ski tipping angles is no more appropriate than lower body inclination without appropriate upper body counter balancing movements.      YM

 

Got it - thank you!

post #33 of 39

@iheartnyc, video would be helpful.  Got some?

post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

LF,
In my simple head, skiing is similar to walking and running. Unless you are impersonating Michael Jackson, you probably don't pull your feet back when walking biggrin.gif You do however close your ankle to get forward of it even though it is in front of you. You pass your ankle; it doesn't pass you. 
....

Ken

 

Yes I do pull my feet back when walking!  

 

Here's why I think we are disagreeing in words only.  Whether I'm walking in street shoes, running shoes, or ski boots, with every step I make I move one foot back relative to my hips.  I bet you do, too.  It's a frame of reference thing.  One foot goes forward relative to the hips, and the other goes backwards relative to the hips.  If the ground were my frame of reference, then yes the hips pass the ankle.  But if the hips are my frame of reference, then the ground doesn't even come into the picture.  The ankles move fore and aft of the hips. 

 

When I'm skiing, I have internal surveillance cameras pointed at each hip and at each foot.  I know where they are relative to each other all the time because I'm "watching" each of those monitors.  If I want to know where my feet are relative to my hips, I imagine those hips as stable and the feet as moving around under them, forward, backward, out to the side, or alternatively, staying right under the hips.  Watching those monitors has not been important when I'm walking around in street shoes, but it sure does come in handy when running and skiing.  

 

I wish I could dance like Michael Jackson.  On skis.  Cedric Grand can.

post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Yes I do pull my feet back when walking!  

 

Here's why I think we are disagreeing in words only.  Whether I'm walking in street shoes, running shoes, or ski boots, with every step I make I move one foot back relative to my hips.  I bet you do, too.  It's a frame of reference thing.  One foot goes forward relative to the hips, and the other goes backwards relative to the hips.  If the ground were my frame of reference, then yes the hips pass the ankle.  But if the hips are my frame of reference, then the ground doesn't even come into the picture.  The ankles move fore and aft of the hips. 

 

When I'm skiing, I have internal surveillance cameras pointed at each hip and at each foot.  I know where they are relative to each other all the time because I'm "watching" each of those monitors.  If I want to know where my feet are relative to my hips, I imagine those hips as stable and the feet as moving around under them, forward, backward, out to the side, or alternatively, staying right under the hips.  Watching those monitors has not been important when I'm walking around in street shoes, but it sure does come in handy when running and skiing.  

 

I wish I could dance like Michael Jackson.  On skis.  Cedric Grand can.

 

Excelent LF!    Frame of Reference  makes a huge difference in how we move in different environments. In this case friction vs friction-less.

 

I would like to make an additional point and that is about the hips.  Many reference the hips as if they are movable parts. They are not. A hip is simply the socket in which the end of the femur rotates.  The hips are a structural part of the pelvis which is a monolithic bone structure. It is the place where two (legs) merge into one (torso).  

 

As a turn develops we have to dynamically divi up the alignment of our upper mass according to the needs of our skis.  The positioning of the pelvis is critical to this process. Many advocate the "belly button" as a focal point to help make this alignment happen against the outside ski and I don't disagree. 

 

However, as we get deeper into the turn, the inside ski can play a highly supportive role in the turn's outcome but this requires a measured lateral reapportionment  of our mass to that ski.  This adjustment will be ineffective (and some will argue damaging to the performance of the outside ski)  unless the inside leg is properly angled and the foot is positioned underneath to support that reapportionment. 

 

So then the discussion arises...

1. Is it easier to move your mass forward over the inside ski?

2. is it easier to slide your inside foot back underneath?

3. is it BETTER to keep your inside foot underneath from the getgo which (depending on FoR ) may feel like a pulling motion.

 

So to your point it doesn't matter how we get the inside foot underneath, it just needs to get there.  

post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Yes I do pull my feet back when walking!  

Here's why I think we are disagreeing in words only.  Whether I'm walking in street shoes, running shoes, or ski boots, with every step I make I move one foot back relative to my hips.  I bet you do, too.  It's a frame of reference thing.  One foot goes forward relative to the hips, and the other goes backwards relative to the hips.  If the ground were my frame of reference, then yes the hips pass the ankle.  But if the hips are my frame of reference, then the ground doesn't even come into the picture.  The ankles move fore and aft of the hips. 

When I'm skiing, I have internal surveillance cameras pointed at each hip and at each foot.  I know where they are relative to each other all the time because I'm "watching" each of those monitors.  If I want to know where my feet are relative to my hips, I imagine those hips as stable and the feet as moving around under them, forward, backward, out to the side, or alternatively, staying right under the hips.  Watching those monitors has not been important when I'm walking around in street shoes, but it sure does come in handy when running and skiing.  

I wish I could dance like Michael Jackson.  On skis.  Cedric Grand can.


LF,
Maybe it is semantics, frame of reference or how we think about things (half full/half empty). Maybe I'm too pigheaded or lack the gray matter to get onboard with this concept. I'm still not seeing things the way you are and maybe it is how we each think things happen. When walking, (in my head) I don't pull my feet back and this is why I think that way;

Stand on one leg. Maybe on a block so the other leg hangs straight. Swing the hanging leg back and forth. Now do that to the leg you are standing on. In order to pull your foot back, it can't be weighted or at least not as much as the other one. On my weighted foot when standing on one leg, my hips will move fore and aft but that is because I'm opening and closing my ankle. On my non weighted foot, my ankle moves fore and aft because I'm opening and closing my hip.

In both cases my ankles moved fore and aft of my hips using the hips as a reference point but they both used s different process and the actual location of the hips changed in one of the scenarios.

My issue with all this is that to actually pull the new inside ski back it has to be unweighted (or at least less weighted) but at the same time, I'm also supposed to be engaging the uphil edge of that ski to start the transition of the BOS to it.

Still, I'm not against pulling the feet back. I do it in the bumps all the time and sometimes just do it for fun or as a drill. I just have it categorized in my head as something other than how I want to ski every turn. If others want to and are happy with the results, I'm good with that too.

Think snowy thoughts. Crotched isn't opening until Jan now. It's very depressing.

Ken
post #37 of 39

For me in the longer turns it feels like inside foot back, and in the shorter turns it feels like driving the outside foot around. At a higher level (and without video we still don't really know what we are working with) you can see a little bit of abstem just from not working the tail of the ski. Sometimes we can try too hard to be "forward". When the ski is driving across it's a bit more of a foot-squirt™ move and keeps the tail planted.

post #38 of 39
 

Sensations -- that's what we sometimes ski for, yes?  So I'm reading here about sensations associated with what the feet are doing relative to the hips.  Here's a short list of possibilities....

-driving the outside foot around

-pulling the inside foot back

-continually holding the inside foot back, or both feet back

-sliding the outside foot forward at end of turn to keep the tail engaged

-sending both feet forward on old edges at release

-ankle-tipping while doing these things, especially to the little toe edge

-rotating the ski under the arch while doing these things, or not

-and more....

 

Yesterday I skied with part of my family, who may ski once every few years.  We stayed slow on low pitch terrain.  The snow was soft springlike snow, perfect for messing around.  While staying with them I focused on where my feet were, relative to my hips. I messed around with the placement and action of the feet, and paid attention to the changes of pressure that resulted, from ball of foot to arch to right in front of heel.  Also messed with shin pressure.  All options were on the table, just for fun.  No conclusions here, except that there are lots of options down there at the foot level, and they sometimes offer surprises if the skier is willing to experiment.   There is more than one "good" option for turn mechanics.

post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

For me in the longer turns it feels like inside foot back, and in the shorter turns it feels like driving the outside foot around. At a higher level (and without video we still don't really know what we are working with) you can see a little bit of abstem just from not working the tail of the ski. Sometimes we can try too hard to be "forward". When the ski is driving across it's a bit more of a foot-squirt™ move and keeps the tail planted.

Epic, could it be that in longer turns one is more likely to be dealing with inclination and balance against circular centripetal force while in the shorter turns you are more likely dealing with angulation and balance against vertical gravitational force?

 

In either case your feet need to be dynamically positioned to align one's mass with the forces at play.  My contention is that (in the longer turns)  lower end skiers loose critical outside ski alignment by allowing the inside foot to slide ahead out from underneath the pelvis as the turn deepens. Pulling the inside foot back helps correct that situation. In shorter turns this condition is less prevalent. 

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