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Favorite drill to increase angles - Page 8

post #211 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Tdk if your foot is everting (and pronating, closed chain) then it is countertwisting (*away* from the turn direction) and so most of the counter rotation will occur around the hip socket.

zenny

And I will add that while under load, it is the leg that internally rotates relative to the foot.

zenny
post #212 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

Yes I know, you can't really push your foot out from the ankle when rolled onto the BTE/LTE, but you can still do it from the hip socket. Meaning you can still hip dump. What I am trying to say is that even when your foot is rolled onto the BTE/LTE, you can still twist your ankle in a way that your LTE and heel on the BTE side are touching the side of the boot. But again, this is mainly going to happen from the hip socket. So you are right about that movement not coming from the ankle I guess, but you are wrong that tipping will cancel out hip dumping. You can definitely engage your BTE and LTE and still be prone to hip dumping. I guess my initial choice of words was quite poor.

 

 

Yes, but I would prefer to call too much counter in the hip socket excessive counter. It actually brings the hip slightly up, not closer to the snow. You have the same problem with too much tip lead etc though.

post #213 of 368

I woke up a little grumpy but has it occurred to anyone else that this thread was supposed to be about helping Karlsson's girl, not an opportunity to expound on what we are working on in our skiing, or which men's WC star we feel exemplifies our skiing theories the best. Where are the pictures of women racers and where is there a description of what they are doing? Wouldn't that be more valuable for the girl? I say yes. In any case I feel we are failing her by going on and on about how Ted, or Marcel achieve WC edge angles. Maze, Vonn, Shiffren and the rest of the world class women might be better subjects for study in this thread. Just sayin...

post #214 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Yes, but I would prefer to call too much counter in the hip socket excessive counter. It actually brings the hip slightly up, not closer to the snow. You have the same problem with too much tip lead etc though.

Hmm, okay, I guess I still have to work on my terminology, but I'd say apart from that we are pretty much agreeing here. Besides, you have improved my analytical skills today, so thank you for that. And try to give that raising your leg thing a go! What I referred to as pushing yourself down, I am curious about what you think.

You mean in my picture? That pic was taken 12 years ago, I was like 9 or 10 back then.

post #215 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Ok, so we have 3 kinds of counter: at the ancle, at the hip and at the waist.

 

Ancle Counter: rotating at the ancle, hip dumping, a result of countring where you dont keep your knees pointing straigth forward.

Hip Counter: rotating at the hip socket, keeps the knees pointing forward, the act of pushing the inside hip forward

Waist Counter: of no interest in this discussion

 

What comes to the graphs I cant really grasp it. Your foot, the ski boot and the ski are one unit. Best way to find this out is to put on Nordic skis and ski down a ski slope. And your leg is an extension of your ski boot that is one unit with your skis. The only range of movement you have in your ancle is "forward flex" and rotation of your shin bone/lower leg at the ancle. This is what tips your ancle and what tips your boot and ski and leg. In the picture the ski tips while the lower leg remains upright. This is how you brake an ancle on Nordic skis.

If you grab your lower leg with your hands, can you still twist them around the lower leg? Same with the foot? Even with race fit there slack.

Further, IMO it is a big problem if you lock the foot too much.

 

Do you know that there are studies indicating that racers have worse balance than beginners if they have worn too tight boots? Even outside their boots. It is really quite interesting, but controversial. It is the skiing worlds equivalent of the bare foot vs supportive shoes debate.

 

Is postural control affected by expertise in alpine skiing? (F Noe ́, T Paillard: Br J Sports Med 2005;39:835–837. doi: 10.1136/bjsm.2005.018127 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725069/pdf/v039p00835.pdf

post #216 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

I woke up a little grumpy but has it occurred to anyone else that this thread was supposed to be about helping Karlsson's girl, not an opportunity to expound on what we are working on in our skiing, or which men's WC star we feel exemplifies our skiing theories the best. Where are the pictures of women racers and where is there a description of what they are doing? Wouldn't that be more valuable for the girl? I say yes. In any case I feel we are failing her by going on and on about how Ted, or Marcel achieve WC edge angles. Maze, Vonn, Shiffren and the rest of the world class women might be better subjects for study in this thread. Just sayin...

I don't think they are doing things much differently and this discussion might help Karlsson's understanding of the do's and don'ts of angulation too right? Besides, most of us already came up with loads of drills to improve edge angles.

post #217 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

Yes I know, you can't really push your foot out from the ankle when rolled onto the BTE/LTE, but you can still do it from the hip socket. Meaning you can still hip dump. What I am trying to say is that even when your foot is rolled onto the BTE/LTE, you can still twist your ankle in a way that your LTE and heel on the BTE side are touching the side of the boot. But again, this is mainly going to happen from the hip socket. So you are right about that movement not coming from the ankle I guess, but you are wrong that tipping will cancel out hip dumping. You can definitely engage your BTE and LTE and still be prone to hip dumping. I guess my initial choice of words was quite poor.

 

I think in your definition you are confusing the result of tipping and the actual definition of tipping. Tipping from the ankle is when you are rolling you foot onto its side with the ankle joint. As a result your knees will point where you are going, but this also happens from the hip socket. In that respect (even though I disagree with the kinetic chain approach) you could see this as a kinetic chain, because tipping will always result in your knees pointing towards where you're going, whether you like it or not.

 

Exactly! 

 

I told you we would be running into tipping definitions. Since I dont understand how you can tip your ancle inside your tight ski boot and cause your skis, ski boots, legs, hips and upper body to tip in eather direction I cannot communicate with you on this. To me tipping is exactly what it looks like when somebody rolls their skis from side to side by pointing their knees from side to side. Here is my drawing from a few years back:

 


A1: No tipping

B1: Tipping, skis locked onto their edges, knees pointing diagonally into the turn compared to where skis are pointing, rotation at hip sockets and ancles

C1: Tipping, skis not locked onto their edges, feet trying to align themselves according to where knees are pointing

D1: Tipping due to inclination, no rotation at hips or ancles, no knee pointing, still skis are tipping

post #218 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

I woke up a little grumpy but has it occurred to anyone else that this thread was supposed to be about helping Karlsson's girl, not an opportunity to expound on what we are working on in our skiing, or which men's WC star we feel exemplifies our skiing theories the best. Where are the pictures of women racers and where is there a description of what they are doing? Wouldn't that be more valuable for the girl? I say yes. In any case I feel we are failing her by going on and on about how Ted, or Marcel achieve WC edge angles. Maze, Vonn, Shiffren and the rest of the world class women might be better subjects for study in this thread. Just sayin...

This is the best example I know:

 

post #219 of 368
Bio mechanically and medically a ton of differences exist Art. Why not use gender specific examples?
post #220 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

This is the best example I know:

 

 

For what? BTW, thats how GS should be skied, carved all the way through. Not like in the WC at the moment.

post #221 of 368
Thanks Jamt, so using that example who here would say she is dumping her hips? They certainly drop differently than the examples of guys that have been offered so far.

I have a few ideas to share but I want to wait to see where this redirect takes the discussion.
post #222 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

This is the best example I know:



That is really nice and fast skiing. Big angles and hips involved with good pressure on outside.
post #223 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Thanks Jamt, so using that example who here would say she is dumping her hips? They certainly drop differently than the examples of guys that have been offered so far.

I have a few ideas to share but I want to wait to see where this redirect takes the discussion.

I would say no, she is not dumping her hip. This is an amazing little skier. She won the Trofeo Topolino with a huge margin in her class. She also beat all the girls and boys, including the older classes!

post #224 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I would say no, she is not dumping her hip. This is an amazing little skier. She won the Trofeo Topolino with a huge margin in her class. She also beat all the girls and boys, including the older classes!

Don't normally join in on racing discussions but that little lady is one heck of a skier!!  My observation of the posted clip is that she has a great ability to collapse her inside leg in a powerful configuration (might look a little weird to some) so that the inside ski joins and bolsters the arc started by the out side ski.  Sort of like kicking in the afterburners. 

 

No hip dumping at all. 

post #225 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Bio mechanically and medically a ton of differences exist Art. Why not use gender specific examples?

 

Are you suggesting there should be gender specific drills?

post #226 of 368
Art, women and men are built differently. How that presents itself can be seen in how we move. Need an example? Stand with your ankles and back against a wall. Without letting your feet move away from the wall bend only at the waist and try to touch your toes without falling forward. Women can do this easily but men always fall forward. Why? Our CoM is higher and further forward so when we bend at the waist our CoM moves even further forward. Contrast that with a woman's CoM that is located lower and further aft. Bending at the waist like we did does not project their CoM as far forward. So they can touch their toes without falling away from the wall.

The net of this is static balance for guys and girls is in a different place. Same hold true for dynamic stability, this means stance differences will naturally exist.
So even though we may ask both to do the same drills the outcomes will be different.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/16/15 at 7:45am
post #227 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So even though we may ask both to do the same drills the outcomes will be different.

 

Even within an all male or all female group the individual anatomy, and therefore the position adopted for balance, will vary but the outcome of properly performed drills will be very similar.

post #228 of 368
What we can assume from this is what may resemble dropping the hip aft for a guy may not be the same for a woman. The classic hip dump move where the pelvis drops laterally as well as a bit aft thus needs to be viewed differently. Obviously it can be overdone but that threshold is a bit further aft for women and a bit more of a hip flex bias is more common for them as well.
Does this explain why I mentioned why gender specific examples are better?
Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/16/15 at 4:51pm
post #229 of 368
Ski, Outcome wise being aware of the different balancing requirements no matter how slight means interpreting what we see through a wider lens. In other words none of us ski exactly alike for this very reason. Without getting too philisophical I would say it is in these smaller details that we see the most seperation between good and great skiers.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/16/15 at 9:36am
post #230 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I told you we would be running into tipping definitions. Since I dont understand how you can tip your ancle inside your tight ski boot and cause your skis, ski boots, legs, hips and upper body to tip in eather direction I cannot communicate with you on this. To me tipping is exactly what it looks like when somebody rolls their skis from side to side by pointing their knees from side to side. Here is my drawing from a few years back:

 


A1: No tipping

B1: Tipping, skis locked onto their edges, knees pointing diagonally into the turn compared to where skis are pointing, rotation at hip sockets and ancles

C1: Tipping, skis not locked onto their edges, feet trying to align themselves according to where knees are pointing

D1: Tipping due to inclination, no rotation at hips or ancles, no knee pointing, still skis are tipping

A1: Agreed
B1: Only tipping from the knees, no tipping from the ankles
C1: Same as B1
D1: No tipping from the ankles and knees, but probably from the hip socket, or bij tilting the whole (upper) body.

I can definitely tip my feet in my boots, of course not a lot, since they're very stiff and tight, but I'd say the tipping movement is mainly about applying pressure on the part of the foot that needs to be pressured. You're not telling me you are skiing with flat feet right?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Bio mechanically and medically a ton of differences exist Art. Why not use gender specific examples?

Fair enough, but, as said before, the drills remain the same I'd say. 

post #231 of 368

I Like the pictures. So you are saying tip from the knees? I will try that.

 

BTW, I tip so much better after a moscow mule.:snowfall

post #232 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Without getting too philisophical I would say it is in these smaller details that we see the most seperation between good and great skiers.

 

Smaller details due to anatomy differences? No, can't agree with that.

post #233 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSKI View Post
 

I Like the pictures. So you are saying tip from the knees? I will try that.

 

 

Please Don't. Tip your feet will cause the knees to angulate a bit and that is enough. More than that is not good for the knees.

post #234 of 368

That's what I thought too. But I am willing to try new things. I know siing with my knees makes great short turns.

post #235 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

A1: Agreed
B1: Only tipping from the knees, no tipping from the ankles
C1: Same as B1
D1: No tipping from the ankles and knees, but probably from the hip socket, or bij tilting the whole (upper) body.

I can definitely tip my feet in my boots, of course not a lot, since they're very stiff and tight, but I'd say the tipping movement is mainly about applying pressure on the part of the foot that needs to be pressured. You're not telling me you are skiing with flat feet right?

 

 

Good job on A1 to D1. Here is an updated drawing I made just now.

 

Front view!

A2: Natural Stance

B2: Tipping by whole body Inclination or Hip Angulation

C2: Adding Knee Driving

 

Note that driving or pointing the knees into the turn tips your skis on higher edge angles than just hip angulation or whole body inclination. I think its easy to imagine this being part of a turn.

 

A2: transition skis flat

B2: top of the turn engaging the edges

C2: apex or belly of the turn just before the release

 

What is skiing with your feet flat?

post #236 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

What is skiing with your feet flat?

 

You should basically be on your toes and pads. Put pressure on the ouside fots pad/big toe.

post #237 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSKI View Post
 

That's what I thought too. But I am willing to try new things. I know siing with my knees makes great short turns.

 

It could be argued that skiing is not good for your knees but all good skiing involves using your knees. Especially short turns. So dont be afraid to add tipping to your skis by rotating your femures at the hip sockets and pointing your knees into the turn. In longer and faster GS type turns you rely more on hip angulation but in all shorter types of turns such as short carved turns or bump type short turns, use your knees.

post #238 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post
 

 

You should basically be on your toes and pads. Put pressure on the ouside fots pad/big toe.

 

So not skiing with your foot flat means that you should not ski on your toes, pads and heels but rather only on your toes and pads?

post #239 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

So not skiing with your foot flat means that you should not ski on your toes, pads and heels but rather only on your toes and pads?

Yes, don't ski on the whole foot, or your heels.
Edited by Karlsson - 12/17/15 at 6:56am
post #240 of 368

We naturally balance over the center of the foot (closer to the heel than the ball). When centering our com over this part of out foot we are best positioned to move fore/aft/left/right/etc.

 

Standing naturally over the center of the foot also activates all three arches of the foot and makes it a stable platform to built the skiing edifice on.

 

Standing on the whole foot is a much stronger stance for the body to work from

 

If the young lady has been coached to ski on the balls of her feet then that is part of the problem with her developing better angles.

 

fom


Edited by fatoldman - 12/17/15 at 5:57am
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