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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Nitty Gritty Canting Question regarding use of canted lifter pieces. HELP!
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Nitty Gritty Canting Question regarding use of canted lifter pieces. HELP!

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 

I'll try to sum this up quickly, but I could go on forever.  Bottom line, I really like the Head Raptor and have been skiing it for a few years.  So much so that I horded a few old pair.  However, I've tried and failed twice to perfectly dial in my canting (yes, worked with a very reputable shop... just asking here so I don't have to bug them with lots of questions.)

 

Here is my bottom line question:

 

When you put a canted lifter plate on a boot, let's say a 1* plate, and shave the upper of the heel and toe lug does that achieve 1* inward or outward (depending on the shim obviously) from Zero.  Or, does it achieve 1* from the previous set up.  I think the answer is 1* from true Zero??

 

That's the rub, I think.  I have read, and can also pretty plainly tell from skiing them, that the Raptors are NOT set up at true "zero" out of the box.  They very much seem to be canted to the outside. (And, no I don't mean anything to do with the "canting" adjustment on the cuff.  I mean the "real" canting - based on the sole angle relative to the rest of the boot.)

 

Here's the deal in real life.  Stock pair with duct tape shims on the AFD to achieve 1/2 "in" works great.  Shaved heel and toe lugs with professional installation of a 1/2 degree angled lifter plate to the inside is too much.

 

I thought I was losing my mind but then it occurred to me, achieving 1/2* with a make shift duct tape shim gets me 1/2 inside from the stock Head set up, not necessary from true "zero."  Let's assume for argument's sake the boot comes canted out 1/2* from the factory (maybe a full degree, maybe 2*, I have no idea.)  If it starts 1/2 out and I shim it by 1/2 maybe that's all I need.- So a net "zero" stance.  If I have a 1/2* plate on it is the net result 1/2 "in" from zero regardless of where the boot started?  I think so?

 

Again, my basic question.  Does the professional job with the 1/2* plate get me 1/2 from where I started, or 1/2 from true zero.  I think it's the later and I think that's why shimming myself yields a different result.

 

Generally, with other Nordicas and Tecnicas I have skied for years I haven't really needed canting.  Maybe a little bit to the inside with my left leg, which is slightly bowed, but that's it.  So, this also supports my hypothesis. 

 

PM me or reply if anyone is interest in working through this with me or has a short answer to my question!

 

 

 

post #2 of 10

short answer is if you add a shim to the boot it will be whatever that shim angle is from where you started.

 

i have a raptor B3 sat on the shelf that i just checked, they come out of the box at 0.5 degree so putting the 0.5 degree wedge THICK SIDE  OUT will give you ZERO as your lower shell angle.... IF the boot is machined to get the angle it would need to either have a single pass over a jointer type sole planer which will cut 0.5 degree from the starting angle OR be set at O degrees for a RnD sports/Surefoot type milling machine... if you  set one of these machines to 0.5 degrees it will be like moving 1 degree from the start position 

if you want to be really accurate then you cut the sole at 0 true flat and work from there, but this takes accurate machines which many shops don't have, time to look for a race boot specialist 

 

other things to consider

is the sole flat to start with? if not make it so

has the base board been interfaced to work with the custom insole you are using?

 

it should also be noted that this years raptor has a different forward lean than the previous years, it is more upright now so this may affect a few things also

post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
 

short answer is if you add a shim to the boot it will be whatever that shim angle is from where you started.

 

i have a raptor B3 sat on the shelf that i just checked, they come out of the box at 0.5 degree so putting the 0.5 degree wedge THICK SIDE  OUT will give you ZERO as your lower shell angle.... IF the boot is machined to get the angle it would need to either have a single pass over a jointer type sole planer which will cut 0.5 degree from the starting angle OR be set at O degrees for a RnD sports/Surefoot type milling machine... if you  set one of these machines to 0.5 degrees it will be like moving 1 degree from the start position 

if you want to be really accurate then you cut the sole at 0 true flat and work from there, but this takes accurate machines which many shops don't have, time to look for a race boot specialist 

 

other things to consider

is the sole flat to start with? if not make it so

has the base board been interfaced to work with the custom insole you are using?

 

it should also be noted that this years raptor has a different forward lean than the previous years, it is more upright now so this may affect a few things also

 

 

Thanks, this confirms my thought.  I have almost no doubt that the .5 shim used to bring me to the inside was installed on the boot sole, then the top of the lug was cut to get it to DIN.  That would most definitely (i think) mean I effectively went from .5 "outside" cant to .5 "inside" cant.  I really just need the boot flattened out to zero based on my testing with duct tape strips.

 

I am also very interested to hear the current model boot has a more upright stance.  The older model was originally more upright - the boot that is a true yellow and has yellow rubber in the toe overlap.  Then, they redesigned the boot with more forward lean so the models (last two years or so) with the very neon color and the black rubber are a bit different.  I was not a fan of the stance of this boot from a forward lean perspective.  

post #4 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by smails View Post
 

 

 

Thanks, this confirms my thought.  I have almost no doubt that the .5 shim used to bring me to the inside was installed on the boot sole, then the top of the lug was cut to get it to DIN.  That would most definitely (i think) mean I effectively went from .5 "outside" cant to .5 "inside" cant.  I really just need the boot flattened out to zero based on my testing with duct tape strips.

 

I am also very interested to hear the current model boot has a more upright stance.  The older model was originally more upright - the boot that is a true yellow and has yellow rubber in the toe overlap.  Then, they redesigned the boot with more forward lean so the models (last two years or so) with the very neon color and the black rubber are a bit different.  I was not a fan of the stance of this boot from a forward lean perspective.  

NO, if the boot is 0.5 degrees and you put a 0.5 degree shim (thick side out) the boot will be ZERO, if you add a 1 degree shim (thick side out) to the boot sole then it would be 0.5 degrees inside

post #5 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
 

NO, if the boot is 0.5 degrees and you put a 0.5 degree shim (thick side out) the boot will be ZERO, if you add a 1 degree shim (thick side out) to the boot sole then it would be 0.5 degrees inside

 

 

 

I find that hard to conceptualize because the constant is not the pre-existing angle the boot was set at, it's the angle at which the shim is produced.  That angle has to be relative to some constant, does it not?  I would assume that constant is 90*.  The top of the boot lug is then manipulated/shaved to correspond with the new sole piece and DIN.  All the original angle dictates is how much material is removed from the top of the boot lug.

 

From your post above you seemed to agree that if the boot did not start at "zero" then the additional of the lifter plate shim and grinding could yield a delta equal to the angle of that shim + the original cant of the boot.  Example: If the boot starts at +0.5 (the "plus" meaning cant to the outside) and a lifter set at -0.5 is added, then the delta will be a full degree to the inside from where I started - with the finished angle dictated by the angle of the plate and the toe lug shaved to match. Or, how about this...  What would happen if I wanted to lift my boot but not cant it.  If the boots starts at +0.5 and I add a lifter plate that is neutral wouldn't I end up with a neutral stance.  Again, the angle of the plate now on the sole being the constant and the top of the toe lug shaved to match it?

post #6 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by smails View Post
 

 

 

 

I find that hard to conceptualize because the constant is not the pre-existing angle the boot was set at, it's the angle at which the shim is produced.  That angle has to be relative to some constant, does it not?  I would assume that constant is 90*.  The top of the boot lug is then manipulated/shaved to correspond with the new sole piece and DIN.  All the original angle dictates is how much material is removed from the top of the boot lug.

 

From your post above you seemed to agree that if the boot did not start at "zero" then the additional of the lifter plate shim and grinding could yield a delta equal to the angle of that shim + the original cant of the boot.  Example: If the boot starts at +0.5 (the "plus" meaning cant to the outside) and a lifter set at -0.5 is added, then the delta will be a full degree to the inside from where I started - with the finished angle dictated by the angle of the plate and the toe lug shaved to match. Or, how about this...  What would happen if I wanted to lift my boot but not cant it.  If the boots starts at +0.5 and I add a lifter plate that is neutral wouldn't I end up with a neutral stance.  Again, the angle of the plate now on the sole being the constant and the top of the toe lug shaved to match it?

the first part and second part of your post contradict each other

 

 

 

simply the head boot starts off life at 0.5 degrees outward cant THIS IS THE ANGLE THAT THE LOWER SHELL SITS AT and the top and bottom of the lugs are parallel. simple maths states at if you have something angled out by 0.5 degrees and you add 0.5 degrees towards the inside you have ZERO, when you cut the top of the lug (having  added the angled shim) it will be cut parallel to the new  sole surface which would be a cut of mare material off the outer top edge than the inner top edge (as the sole was parallel before you added the shim)

 

if you added a neutral lifter (not angled in any way) and hadn't previously made any cuts then cut the boot for DIN the cut would be parallel to the base the boot would still be 0.5 degrees outward cant 

 

i really can't explain it any simpler

post #7 of 10
Foregive me for barging in---but---CEM is right.

I also noticed you seem to be using the term "delta" inappropriately. "delta" refers to the angle produce by the height difference between the heel and toe of the binding.

Mike
post #8 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post

Foregive me for barging in---but---CEM is right.

I also noticed you seem to be using the term "delta" inappropriately. "delta" refers to the angle produce by the height difference between the heel and toe of the binding.

Mike

 

No forgiveness necessary, I am looking for opinions.  Thank you

 

Delta means an incremental difference, does it not?

post #9 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by smails View Post
 

 

No forgiveness necessary, I am looking for opinions.  Thank you

 

Delta means an incremental difference, does it not?


One definition of the word Delta = "an increment of a variable" —symbol Δ

 

In boot fitting the word "Delta" usually refers to the difference between the stand height of the binding heel piece and the height of the AFD (anti friction device) on the toe piece of the binding.  Thus my comment.

 

Your use of the word might apply in the context of your sentences.---  I suppose your use of the term, caught me flat footed.:cool

 

CEM got the answer right in his post:beercheer:.

 

mike

post #10 of 10

I think I see where the mis-understanding is occurring SMAILS.

 

The routering of the top of the binding interface lugs is simply re-establishing them to a plane parallel to the surface on which they sit.  All Canted material added to the sole of the boot is additive to the pre-existing angle either by adding a positive or negative number.  So adding -0.5 degrees to a lower that is set at +0.5 degrees ( either in-mould or by manipulation ) results in 0.0 degrees or upright. If you were to add +0.5 degrees the lower INSTEAD it now be at +1.0 degrees.

 

  NOW the top of the binding interfaces must be routered to be parallel to the surface on which the boot sits or it will not contact the binding correctly.

 

hope this clarifies

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Nitty Gritty Canting Question regarding use of canted lifter pieces. HELP!