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Scraping & Brushing Skis - End The Missconceptions! - Page 3

post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by offpiste View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever floats you boat guys.  It does make a big difference whether racing or not.  Good brushing make a ski faster over time as well.

 

What you guys like is what is referred to as a "speed controlled" ski.  Makes your skiing easier for you.  Hey, as long as you are happy............

Maybe it is because I am a small guy, but if I don't go through the whole process, I find it hard to keep up with people in the posse who weigh more than me.


I have the same issue.  Imagine if the heavy guys did the same job!  When they do, I have to tuck to pass them on the flatter areas!

 

At least some of us do. :D

 

No need to tuck to stay with anybody, unless the skis got a recent stone grind, or it's really, really the wrong wax for the conditions.  Only time that's really been put to the test is following @sibhusky on a cat track...

post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowObstacle View Post
 

 

At least some of us do. :D

 

No need to tuck to stay with anybody, unless the skis got a recent stone grind, or it's really, really the wrong wax for the conditions.  Only time that's really been put to the test is following @sibhusky on a cat track...

So let me see if I got this right. SlowObstacle is giving advice on going fast?  :D You did that on purpose didn't you?

post #63 of 85

After flat filing and side edge filing to remove "rock strikes",

The bottoms get a ironed in waxing.  Then a paper towel is interposed between ski base and iron to soak up excess.

When the wax is cooled, a plexi scraper is passed over the surface two or three times to knock off any high spots.

After that,  a good diagonal brushing with a wire brush completes the tune.

 

Good for another week, and has worked for me for over 15 years.

 

 Wax is uses as a "protectorant"  sort of like Armorall ;-) 

 

I'm used to it!

post #64 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

After flat filing and side edge filing to remove "rock strikes",

The bottoms get a ironed in waxing.  Then a paper towel is interposed between ski base and iron to soak up excess.

When the wax is cooled, a plexi scraper is passed over the surface two or three times to knock off any high spots.

After that,  a good diagonal brushing with a wire brush completes the tune.

 

Good for another week, and has worked for me for over 15 years.

 

 Wax is uses as a "protectorant"  sort of like Armorall ;-) 

 

I'm used to it!


Glad that works for you, but I must say that paper towels have too much micro lint that clog the base up.  You should bite the bullet and get some Fiberlene.  

http://www.the-raceplace.com/Swix-Fiberlene-p/3094z.htm

 

I will say though that good scraping & brushing is still needed after the Fiberlene method.  Just going to be quicker.

post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by offpiste View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowObstacle View Post
 

 

At least some of us do. :D

 

No need to tuck to stay with anybody, unless the skis got a recent stone grind, or it's really, really the wrong wax for the conditions.  Only time that's really been put to the test is following @sibhusky on a cat track...

So let me see if I got this right. SlowObstacle is giving advice on going fast?  :D You did that on purpose didn't you?


Well, maybe...  :cool

 

But good glide and lack of speed control don't necessarily have to go together.  I've got about 50 lbs on my daughter and consequently can beat her down anything I'm willing to bomb.   But mostly I don't, because I like all my bones and ligaments intact and in the appropriate places.   Still like the glide, esp. on cat tracks and other flats.

post #66 of 85

Nah!  Paper towels work just fine,  I've tried the fiber pads.  Nothing to see there.

 

Do what you want,  I'm more than happy with my five minute routine.

Point 'em downhill and hang on!  ;-)

post #67 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post
 

Nah!  Paper towels work just fine,  I've tried the fiber pads.  Nothing to see there.

 

Do what you want,  I'm more than happy with my five minute routine.

Point 'em downhill and hang on!  ;-)


I hope you meant Fiberlene or Fibertex and not fiber pads.  As long as your happy.  But really scraping and brushing makes a ski faster over time.  Keep brushing!  ;)

post #68 of 85
Well I started reading the Dominator Wax, "Wax Science Demystified" paper again. It's important to give a hot waxed ski time to cool down. Like 3 hours or overnight. Oy! Have I been violating that one recently.

Quote:
Hot waxing is the most common and effective form of delivering wax into the base. In this type of application, the wax is melted and applied onto the base by ironing. The heat from the iron melts the wax and increases its solubility in the amorphous polyethylene channels. Gravity forces the molten wax down into the channels. This solubilization (dissolving) of wax in amorphous polyethylene is a reversible process and depends on temperature. When the base is heated up, wax is absorbed; when it cools down, wax is “squeezed” out. The sequence below describes what happens when wax gets ironed into the base. The ruler marks show the thickness of the wax layer on the base: (illustration omitted)

Delivering wax to the base: The time element

Sufficient time must be allowed between ironing and scraping: When the wax is melted (liquid), the cards are in random positions, away from each other. As the wax cools and solidifies, the cards are on top of each other but they are not stacked well and internal friction is high. After some time the cards organize themselves to the tight deck and the minimum internal friction. The cooling must be slow, if it happens too quickly (like taking a warm ski outside) the cards freeze in a position that has higher internal friction. Typical “cooling” times between ironing and scraping are overnight for very soft waxes, three hours for normal (pink, universal) waxes, one hour for cold range waxes, and around 15 minutes for extreme cold waxes. If sufficient waiting time is not available, paste or rub-on waxes are the best options.

http://www.dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/wax-science-demystified.pdf
The "cards" refers to the analogy in the text of wax structure.
post #69 of 85
I leave them over night 95% of the time, which kills me when I'm tired from skiing as it means I have to get to it when I get home and do that ahead of a day off from skiing, which requires planning. Not so bad early season before I start to crank up the vertical, but increasingly tough later.
post #70 of 85
Here's the card analogy:
Quote:
Reducing dry friction

Dry friction occurs when the base and the snow contact each other through microscopic surface irregularities called asperities.These asperities are not visible to the naked eye. The way to reduce dry friction is to use a hydrocarbon wax as a lubricant. Hydrocarbon waxes are very common and they do an excellent job of reducing dry friction.

The easiest way to visualize how a hydrocarbon wax works is to think of a deck of playing cards where the cards slide easily against each other when pushed sideways. But if something stops the cards from sliding against each other (imagine a nail piercing the cards), lubrication is lost.

Wax placed between the snow asperities and the base asperities causes the same kind of sliding, helping the base move faster on snow, while cards (i.e., wax) are left behind. Then you eventually run out of cards and you have to re-wax.

How easily these cards slide against each other depends on the friction between them. Let's call the friction between two cards internal friction (FI). Think of a soft wax, such as yellow, as a deck of small cards with low internal friction. Think of a harder wax, turquoise, as consisting of larger cards; this is shown below. It takes more effort to move the larger cards against each other, so harder waxes have higher internal friction than softer waxes.
it goes on.

I'm still trying to figure out if regular good hydrocarbon waxes have anti static elements in them. An unwaxed base has much less friction than a waxed base with no antistatic additives. According to the Dominator paper.
post #71 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Here's the card analogy:
Quote:
Reducing dry friction

Dry friction occurs when the base and the snow contact each other through microscopic surface irregularities called asperities.These asperities are not visible to the naked eye. The way to reduce dry friction is to use a hydrocarbon wax as a lubricant. Hydrocarbon waxes are very common and they do an excellent job of reducing dry friction.

The easiest way to visualize how a hydrocarbon wax works is to think of a deck of playing cards where the cards slide easily against each other when pushed sideways. But if something stops the cards from sliding against each other (imagine a nail piercing the cards), lubrication is lost.

Wax placed between the snow asperities and the base asperities causes the same kind of sliding, helping the base move faster on snow, while cards (i.e., wax) are left behind. Then you eventually run out of cards and you have to re-wax.

How easily these cards slide against each other depends on the friction between them. Let's call the friction between two cards internal friction (FI). Think of a soft wax, such as yellow, as a deck of small cards with low internal friction. Think of a harder wax, turquoise, as consisting of larger cards; this is shown below. It takes more effort to move the larger cards against each other, so harder waxes have higher internal friction than softer waxes.
it goes on.

I'm still trying to figure out if regular good hydrocarbon waxes have anti static elements in them. An unwaxed base has much less friction than a waxed base with no antistatic additives. According to the Dominator paper.


They don't, but a most black ski bases have graphite in them.  Some types are called Electro-Glide for example.  Different makers have other names. 

I always use an anti-static in any wax choice I use.  Whether it be built in or as a 50-50 mix.

Still,  no matter what wax you use,  you need to scrape and brush until the base surface has no "visible" wax left on it.

post #72 of 85

All I have to say is, I'm staying out of this one. :)

 

Except that I love my Dominator Hyper-zoom.

post #73 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 

All I have to say is, I'm staying out of this one. :)

 

Except that I love my Dominator Hyper-zoom.


What are you staying out of?  You know the total scraping and brushing is the best always no matter what wax you use!   Yes, Hyper Zoom is a bomb!

post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


What are you staying out of?  You know the total scraping and brushing is the best always no matter what wax you use!   Yes, Hyper Zoom is a bomb!


Nope, I'm not going to comment...;)

post #75 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


What are you staying out of?  You know the total scraping and brushing is the best always no matter what wax you use!   Yes, Hyper Zoom is a bomb!


Nope, I'm not going to comment...;)


Okay, you are smarter than me!  Sometimes I just can't help myself from commenting!  ;)

post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Okay, you are smarter than me!  Sometimes I just can't help myself from commenting!  ;)


Stop baiting me, I know what your doing here...;)

 

LOL Thanks I needed a good chuckle. :)

 

Headed out the door in a hour to head back to VT. Plan to ski my good Kendo's in the morning for the first time this crappy season. No more rock skis.  Ski more , think less.

post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Glad that works for you, but I must say that paper towels have too much micro lint that clog the base up.  You should bite the bullet and get some Fiberlene.  

http://www.the-raceplace.com/Swix-Fiberlene-p/3094z.htm

 

I will say though that good scraping & brushing is still needed after the Fiberlene method.  Just going to be quicker.

Scott must really like your money!!!  they are only $19.00 for a 100 Sheet box at tognar!

 

http://www.tognar.com/swix-fiberlene-hot-waxing-pro-paper-pack/

 

By the way 1 sheet does 2 skis!  a box of 100 sheets does 200 skis!  That is less than 10 cents a pair

post #78 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Okay, you are smarter than me!  Sometimes I just can't help myself from commenting!  ;)


Stop baiting me, I know what your doing here...;)

 

LOL Thanks I needed a good chuckle. :)

 

Headed out the door in a hour to head back to VT. Plan to ski my good Kendo's in the morning for the first time this crappy season. No more rock skis.  Ski more , think less.


Yes!  Ski more......think less!

post #79 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Glad that works for you, but I must say that paper towels have too much micro lint that clog the base up.  You should bite the bullet and get some Fiberlene.  

http://www.the-raceplace.com/Swix-Fiberlene-p/3094z.htm

 

I will say though that good scraping & brushing is still needed after the Fiberlene method.  Just going to be quicker.

Scott must really like your money!!!  they are only $19.00 for a 100 Sheet box at tognar!

 

http://www.tognar.com/swix-fiberlene-hot-waxing-pro-paper-pack/

 

By the way 1 sheet does 2 skis!  a box of 100 sheets does 200 skis!  That is less than 10 cents a pair


They got lots of money from me.  No worries.  It's good to support your local economy!  Fact is I use very little Fiberlene.  A roll goes a long way.
They have also kicked me down hard on a few occasions!

post #80 of 85

Here is my method....

 

 

I have about 100lbs of parafin that I cut into small blocks (my dad was making candles about 45 years ago).  It is super soft stuff.  I hot wax a coat, then pull it off immediately.  Then I hot wax three more times with the same wax.  I scrape and brush each time.  Then the ski goes into my car (this is done during the summer).  Let's call this my ghetto hot box.  Once they have thoroughly been sweated, I take them inside and let them cool for a day.  Next is a scrape and some brushing.  Finally, I use Hertel hot sauce or their harder wax if it is for the beer league skis.  Let them sit overnight.  Scrape then it is rotobrush time.  This method is a big improvement over my previous way of waxing, which was just to wax and scrape a few times.

 

On going waxing takes place weekly.  I live in New England, and it seems that after a couple of days of skiing, a nice wax, scrape and rotobrush session keeps the skis happy.  Even my kids notice the difference.  They give me crap if I slack on my waxing duties.  I hit my edges with a diamond stone each time as well.... but that should be a whole other thread :)

 

Pete

post #81 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

Here is my method....

 

 

I have about 100lbs of parafin that I cut into small blocks (my dad was making candles about 45 years ago).  It is super soft stuff.  I hot wax a coat, then pull it off immediately.  Then I hot wax three more times with the same wax.  I scrape and brush each time.  Then the ski goes into my car (this is done during the summer).  Let's call this my ghetto hot box.  Once they have thoroughly been sweated, I take them inside and let them cool for a day.  Next is a scrape and some brushing.  Finally, I use Hertel hot sauce or their harder wax if it is for the beer league skis.  Let them sit overnight.  Scrape then it is rotobrush time.  This method is a big improvement over my previous way of waxing, which was just to wax and scrape a few times.

 

On going waxing takes place weekly.  I live in New England, and it seems that after a couple of days of skiing, a nice wax, scrape and rotobrush session keeps the skis happy.  Even my kids notice the difference.  They give me crap if I slack on my waxing duties.  I hit my edges with a diamond stone each time as well.... but that should be a whole other thread :)

 

Pete


Pete, I'll go for that.  Super soft in the car in the summer.  Easy temps. of 120 F + on a hot day.  Then you lay down the harder waxes.  You scrape and brush each time.  You let the ski cool for a long period of time.  I like it.  Take care man!  Here is to the hot interior of a car in the summer! :beercheer:

post #82 of 85
Like the ghetto box!
Maybe you could get some additives to mix in the paraffin.
post #83 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Like the ghetto box!
Maybe you could get some additives to mix in the paraffin.


I know this method works fine with Dominator's Base Renew waxes.  Some have hot attics and they put the skis up there for weeks!

post #84 of 85
Thread Starter 

Like I said from the first post.  Don't leave anything on the base if you want maximum glide!

post #85 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

My point is that for the average skier WC tuning standards are not necessary. For the racer, proper tuning and waxing will make a big difference of course. For the skier on the Icecoast a great edge tune matters. For the California skiing more attention to waxing will pay off. For the once a year skier who hits good conditions in the Rockies good tuning and waxing will yield marginal benefit. Skiers can adapt their tuning and waxing regimen to their goals and conditions and need not feel like they are abusing their skis if they don't spend hours prepping their skis. The casual rec skier also need not feel guilty if they enjoy spending time doing a great tune and wax; the exercise can be an end in itself for some, but not for me.

 

People who ask questions in this forum would do themselves a favor if they describe where they ski, how they ski, and what their goals are. And people who answer should take that information into account. Here's a good example of someone who has probably been reading this forum and has been sucked into believing that terrible things will happen if he doesn't do a "proper" new ski prep.

http://www.epicski.com/t/144025/will-skiing-on-the-factory-wax-damage-my-skis


You spent a lot of money on new skis and bindings....  you really can't afford a proper tune including waxing prior to using it?  (especially considering the wax job at the factory is optimized for production rates, not proper wax penetration?). It doesn't cost that much to get it tuned in the beginning of the season for the average recreational skier. It's not like people are saying "thou shall be OCD and wax them every day".   If you're going to be cheap, you picked the wrong hobby to participate in. 

 

It's like a BMW or Mercedes Benz owner asking if they can use regular octane in their cars they spent a lot of money buying or, asking if they are use the cheapo conventional 5w30 oil on their cars for oil changes.

Late reply--but . . . 

For the record--I wax every one to two days on the skis (crayon on, iron in, scrape, hand brush) and do side edges every day to never--depending on the ski and the snow. Takes me about 15 minutes to do a pair with edges, longer if it's warm and there's no snow outside my garage to cool them off before scraping. I have the bases professional ground if the skis are out of flat or the edges are chewed up badly enough that sharpening side edges won't do it--yearly to never. I wax, scrape, and brush new skis before skiing on them. I think skis should be tuned often--the question is how long to spend doing it each time. I find that if I do a fairly quick tune--not as quick as Coombs' method, I rarely use a file--I do it more often. OTOH a lot of people get pleasure doing a WC standard tune even if it doesn't make a difference in their skiing. I would never criticize someone for doing that, but the average skier doesn't need to feel guilty if they're not doing it. I do think every serious skier should learn to do a basic tune--if they take their skis to a shop for every wax and edges or minor base repairs they're not going to do it often enough. The easiest way to sharpen edges is to not let them get dull.

 

My philosophy on tuning is like my general philosophy of life--the last 5% of benefit in anything takes 90% of the time. There are tasks where taking the time for that 5% matters--skiing the DH for example, but most of the time it doesn't. And sometimes going for that 5% makes things worse--like sharpening away your edges or grinding away your bases.


Edited by oldgoat - 10/7/16 at 10:00pm
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