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Icy groomer ski to complement Bushwhackers

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

I got a pair of Bushwhackers this season based on the salesman's recommendations, my own research and last years conditions on the East coast (my first season). These seemed best because I like to go everywhere except the park (although I'm thinking Brahmas or Latigos may have been better).

 

Anyway I'm going to try them out at Stratton this weekend but I'm thinking they're not going to be too great on the icy early season groomers (and icy groomers in general). If not what ski would you get to complement them and improve at carving? I'm 5'11", 180lbs, and skiing wise, I can get down any blue confidently and was getting down blacks including trees and bumps ok at Killington, and even double blacks at Magic Mountain later in the season, but those were good conditions and my style wasn't great. I'm not sure I want to buy another pair right now if I can avoid it but I love skiing and know I am going to be going every weekend of the season now and for the rest of my life ;). However once we get some proper snow and more coverage I will probably use the Bushwackers most of the time, so don't want to spend too much money.

post #2 of 24
Thread Starter 

Or alternatively will practicing carving on groomers in the Bushwhackers make me a better skier quicker than a pair of skis designed for these conditions?

post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishDan View Post
 

Or alternatively will practicing carving on groomers in the Bushwhackers make me a better skier quicker than a pair of skis designed for these conditions?

 

No. A carving ski is a better bet.

 

However, first things first:

 

1) confirm with a GOOD fitter that you have really good boot fit and alignment

2) make sure your skis have a first class tune from a shop that knows what it's doing

3) take some lessons

 

People here can recommend sources for all of the above at Stratton. You're unlikely to make fast progress that's fit to build upon without these things in place. If you are still jonesing for a better hard snow carving experience after that, then a narrow ski with a short radius will serve you much better than the Bushwackers. Something like a Head Magnum would be great, but there are a lot of good choices in that arena.

post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

No. A carving ski is a better bet.

 

However, first things first:

 

1) confirm with a GOOD fitter that you have really good boot fit and alignment

2) make sure your skis have a first class tune from a shop that knows what it's doing

3) take some lessons

 

People here can recommend sources for all of the above at Stratton. You're unlikely to make fast progress that's fit to build upon without these things in place. If you are still jonesing for a better hard snow carving experience after that, then a narrow ski with a short radius will serve you much better than the Bushwackers. Something like a Head Magnum would be great, but there are a lot of good choices in that arena.

 

1) I got my boots at a great fitter, spent nearly 2 hours getting it right. My rentals last seasons were way to big so this should be a big improvement.

2) Probably should do that

3) Am going to take some lessons this season. Maybe I'll just spend the ski money on even more lessons.

post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishDan View Post
 

I got a pair of Bushwhackers this season based on the salesman's recommendations, my own research and last years conditions on the East coast (my first season). These seemed best because I like to go everywhere except the park (although I'm thinking Brahmas or Latigos may have been better).

 

Anyway I'm going to try them out at Stratton this weekend but I'm thinking they're not going to be too great on the icy early season groomers (and icy groomers in general). If not what ski would you get to complement them and improve at carving? I'm 5'11", 180lbs, and skiing wise, I can get down any blue confidently and was getting down blacks including trees and bumps ok at Killington, and even double blacks at Magic Mountain later in the season, but those were good conditions and my style wasn't great. I'm not sure I want to buy another pair right now if I can avoid it but I love skiing and know I am going to be going every weekend of the season now and for the rest of my life ;). However once we get some proper snow and more coverage I will probably use the Bushwackers most of the time, so don't want to spend too much money.

 

I would say something with metal, maybe not to burly though. Are you looking to improve your skills at the same time, or mostly just low-angle cruising at this point?  A more forgiving ski won't have as much performance as you progress, but will be easier to use right now.  

 

As far as ultimate ice grip; if you can use them, race SL skis or SL carvers will be your best bet.  

 

A few options:

Fischer WC SC

Blizzard Power 8S

Head Rally (more forgiving, not a pure SL carver)

Stockli AX, SL, CX, SC (Stockli has the biggest range of frontside carvers)

 

There are lots of others, I just haven't been able to test many, these are extremely rare at demo events these days. 

post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post
 

 

I would say something with metal, maybe not to burly though. Are you looking to improve your skills at the same time, or mostly just low-angle cruising at this point?  A more forgiving ski won't have as much performance as you progress, but will be easier to use right now.  

I'm looking to improve, I'm fine at low angle cruising, but on moguls and when it gets steep I revert to skid turns, I actually find skiing in the trees easier.

post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishDan View Post
 

I'm looking to improve, I'm fine at low angle cruising, but on moguls and when it gets steep I revert to skid turns, I actually find skiing in the trees easier.

Less than pure angle carving is fine as long as you are making good movements. It is very tough to arc a pure carver on really steep tight terrain, and you pick up a lot of speed doing so.  But "scarving" works well in steep terrain.  Throwing your heels out and skidding is a bad movement however.....

 

I do think a fairly responsive ski such as the Rally would work really, really well.  The others I mentioned are likely too much ski.  But yes, I agree, find a good instructor who can help you make the proper movements and work on your balance. That will be the foundation to good skiing for anyone. 

post #8 of 24

Since you already have the Bushwhackers, I recommend you get a cheater Race ski.  Choose the radius according to how fast you like skiing (guessing it's not that fast - so SL radius (13 m or less)).

Lots of good skis on offer from  Nordica, Stockli, Fischer. Kästle.  Get a one-step down from full-on racing ski if you want to progress quickly.

post #9 of 24

There is nothing wrong with a well shaped skidded turn in the moguls.

I love my Worldcup SC's for generally fun frontside skiing when there are people around but slalom skis suck in moguls.

Other guys know a lot more about current skis than I do but I think you want something that is reasonably flexible, 70's width, and 13-16 meters radius.

You ought to be able to find something like this at a great price because such skis are out of fashion.

You want 175 or 180's.

This sounds a lot like a Fischer Progressor or the like.

I'd guess before you are ready for a RC-4 level ski you need new, stiff boots.

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

There is nothing wrong with a well shaped skidded turn in the moguls.

I love my Worldcup SC's for generally fun frontside skiing when there are people around but slalom skis suck in moguls.

Other guys know a lot more about current skis than I do but I think you want something that is reasonably flexible, 70's width, and 13-16 meters radius.

You ought to be able to find something like this at a great price because such skis are out of fashion.

You want 175 or 180's.

This sounds a lot like a Fischer Progressor or the like.

I'd guess before you are ready for a RC-4 level ski you need new, stiff boots.

Duh!  Forgot about the Progressor!  

 

F18 would be the one to get. I skied the F19 last year, fun ski, but pretty stout in the tail, I wouldn't say it was a great bump ski (or even very good). 

 

The F18 w/o metal would be just about perfect.  You won't be approaching it's limits, and it is a much more approachable ski all around.  Of course, I really like Fischer skis (and sell them) so I might be biased, but the Progressor is always an impressive lineup, even back from the days it was the RX series (9 was the metal GS, 8 the metal slalom, 6 the all-around frontside/bump friendly model which is the modern equivalent to the F18).  

post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

but slalom skis suck in moguls.

 

Not true. SL skis do not suck in the bumps. Often can't say the same about the skier. :D

 

For the OP, if you are up at Stratton this weekend, go demo something narrow from Startingate. Then get whatever makes you happy. They carry both Head & Atomic. They make some of the best ice skates around. 

 

Edit: They also carry Fischer & Rossi, but only race stuff. 

post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

 

Not true. SL skis do not suck in the bumps. Often can't say the same about the skier. :D

 

For the OP, if you are up at Stratton this weekend, go demo something narrow from Startingate. Then get whatever makes you happy. They carry both Head & Atomic. They make some of the best ice skates around. 

 

Edit: They also carry Fischer & Rossi, but only race stuff. 


That must be why pro bump skis are almost straight.

Drive that slalom 123 mm tip into a bump off balance and it doesn't behave well.

Bye knee.

post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

 

Not true. SL skis do not suck in the bumps. Often can't say the same about the skier. :D

 

For the OP, if you are up at Stratton this weekend, go demo something narrow from Startingate. Then get whatever makes you happy. They carry both Head & Atomic. They make some of the best ice skates around. 

 

Edit: They also carry Fischer & Rossi, but only race stuff. 


That must be why pro bump skis are almost straight.

Drive that slalom 123 mm tip into a bump off balance and it doesn't behave well.

Bye knee.


It's all relative.  My 165 WC SCs (13 m radius) are a pretty good bump ski, compared to my old school 208 SG skis.  A softer longer less curvy ski would be even better though.

post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


It's all relative.  My 165 WC SCs (13 m radius) are a pretty good bump ski, compared to my old school 208 SG skis.  A softer longer less curvy ski would be even better though.


Really?

You know I have some of those 208 Fischer SG's.

In the bumps?

Maybe every third bump?

post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


It's all relative.  My 165 WC SCs (13 m radius) are a pretty good bump ski, compared to my old school 208 SG skis.  A softer longer less curvy ski would be even better though.


Really?

You know I have some of those 208 Fischer SG's.

In the bumps?

Maybe every third bump?


'bout sums it up.  Still better than the 215s though. :)

post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post


That must be why pro bump skis are almost straight.

Drive that slalom 123 mm tip into a bump off balance and it doesn't behave well.

Bye knee.

 

Then don't drive the tip into the bump and/or get off balance. Problem solved.

 

There is more than one line thru the bumps. 

post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

Not true. SL skis do not suck in the bumps. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

That must be why pro bump skis are almost straight.

Drive that slalom 123 mm tip into a bump off balance and it doesn't behave well.

 

 

Comment: Actual SL WC racing skis are not all that easy in bumps because of the flex pattern (stiff tips and tails), deep sidecut, and fairly serious taper (big tip, narrower tail, often 18-21 mm difference). They're built to try to initiate a carve, no matter where. Believe me on this one, I end up in bumps on mine routinely getting back to the lift after the racing's done. But rec slalom-ish hybrid skis - different beast with sidecuts in the 14-16 range and less taper - can be decent in bumps if you mostly like to wiggling down through the valleys, or methodically drift and roll. OTOH, most good bump skiers don't much carve or drift and roll, and yep, most higher level bump skis are basically short, softer GS skis. Go look at the Hart F17 WC for a good example of a nearly perfect competitive bump ski.

 

All about how you plan to ski bumps, and how often, and how hard, less about whether you're an ace. 

 

OP: You'd be happiest with something like Dawg's or Dakine's suggesting. Fischer, for instance, or some of the narrower Blizzards are great all around frontside carvers, and make a nice pairing with Bushwackers. (Which BTW are great bump skis unless you're skiing bumps when they're completely frozen, in which case you should remember not to miss your flagellation before lunch.) A good carver will also have a higher top end on firm than your Bushwackers. Save them for softer snow and the trees....

post #18 of 24

Bushwalker do have a nice edge grip ( the ones I very briefly owned were at 3°) and can stand on icy groomed but they have 2 problems IMO.. 1. They lack dampness and if the slopes are icy and not weel groomed, your knees will tell you... 2. Mine had  enough tip rocker that I could feel the edge engaging not at the tip but at the end of the rocker...

 

You could had  Blizzard S-Power or G-Power to the list...

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

 

Comment: Actual SL WC racing skis are not all that easy in bumps because of the flex pattern (stiff tips and tails), deep sidecut, and fairly serious taper (big tip, narrower tail, often 18-21 mm difference). They're built to try to initiate a carve, no matter where. Believe me on this one, I end up in bumps on mine routinely getting back to the lift after the racing's done. But rec slalom-ish hybrid skis - different beast with sidecuts in the 14-16 range and less taper - can be decent in bumps if you mostly like to wiggling down through the valleys, or methodically drift and roll. OTOH, most good bump skiers don't much carve or drift and roll, and yep, most higher level bump skis are basically short, softer GS skis. Go look at the Hart F17 WC for a good example of a nearly perfect competitive bump ski.

 

All about how you plan to ski bumps, and how often, and how hard, less about whether you're an ace. 

 

OP: You'd be happiest with something like Dawg's or Dakine's suggesting. Fischer, for instance, or some of the narrower Blizzards are great all around frontside carvers, and make a nice pairing with Bushwackers. (Which BTW are great bump skis unless you're skiing bumps when they're completely frozen, in which case you should remember not to miss your flagellation before lunch.) A good carver will also have a higher top end on firm than your Bushwackers. Save them for softer snow and the trees....

 

The comments regarding SL ski is in response to the radom line in post #9. Definitely not a rec for the OP. The OP would probably do best on something narrower, more forgiving and stay the hell away from the real race stuff.

 

Sometime I wonder why most competition bump skiers retired in the early to mid 20's. Doesn't matter what the reasons are, I'm 40 years too late for the retirement party. There are many way to ski the bumps without resorting to jack hammering the zipper line prevalent in pro mogul comps. Great entertainment but my knees hurt for days after watching it. I don't know about others, but my bump skiing doesn't look anything like what is seen in pro mogul comps. I am very happy about that and so do my knees, hip & lower back. OTOH, my normal downhill skiing is decent but it doesn't look anything like a WC DH event. I am also very glad of that, I really hate wetting myself. :D      

post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 

I demoed the Blizzard Power X8 which really ripped, and the Volkl RTM 78 which were alright, I was going to get the x8 but then decided to try the Latigos, which I instantly loved, I was able to get down the trails at higher speeds and with more confidence straight away, so I bought them. I'll save the bushwhackers for Jay Peak.

post #21 of 24

If you like your Bushwackers, you should really consider the Latigo.

 

When it comes to making a good recommendation, it's all about the timing, guys! ;)

post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

 I am also very glad of that, I really hate wetting myself. :D      

 

:rotflmao: Yeah, I hate it when I do that. 

post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishDan View Post
 

I demoed the Blizzard Power X8 which really ripped, and the Volkl RTM 78 which were alright, I was going to get the x8 but then decided to try the Latigos, which I instantly loved, I was able to get down the trails at higher speeds and with more confidence straight away, so I bought them. I'll save the bushwhackers for Jay Peak.

 

The Latigos performed great for me at Jay Peak, so you might want to consider bringing them along as well.

post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishDan View Post
 

I demoed the Blizzard Power X8 which really ripped, and the Volkl RTM 78 which were alright, I was going to get the x8 but then decided to try the Latigos, which I instantly loved, I was able to get down the trails at higher speeds and with more confidence straight away, so I bought them. I'll save the bushwhackers for Jay Peak.


Great choice, you're going to love them.

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