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Tyranny of Fat - Page 27

post #781 of 844

^^^ truth.

 

Dalbello is on the record that they have changed their boots to adapt to the new rocker technology, so there is less forward lean and ramp angle. I can't wait for for the OP to write another "scathing" article about this. IMO boots are more important than skis. 

 

go to time 1:35 for the statement.

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 1/31/16 at 4:49pm
post #782 of 844
Thread Starter 

The latest from Jackson Hogen: http://www.realskiers.com/NEWSLETTERS/sanity.html

 

A (Slight) Swing Back Toward Sanity
What We Learned at SIA

Last week I spent three days immersed in the annual ski show in Denver and, like many of my brethren, almost as much time trying to travel home. 

After sifting through the catalogs of 14 major brands, culling and categorizing over 260 models we expect to cover for 2017, a most interesting and welcome development emerged from the data: most new models next year will be less than 85mm underfoot, a significant slimming of America’s ski silhouette. Before parsing the details of this important tipping point, let’s pause to consider why it matters.

 For the past several seasons, American skiers have been buying skis too fat their own good, literally.  Once skiers are on boards so broad they can’t comfortably tip them to a high edge angle, the chances of them ever acquiring this foundational skill are virtually nil.  Furthermore, most skiers remain unaware that a wide ski on hard snow poses inherently higher risks of knee discomfort and increases the odds of a serious knee injury.

boot award

So it is with considerable relief that I report that of the 100+ new models we’re likely to survey in 2017, more than half will be Frontside, Technical or non-FIS race skis.   The genre with by far the largest influx of new models is Frontside, and that’s without our counting the many lower priced package models that populate the nether reaches of this beginner-to-expert category.

The brands that have lent the most momentum to the pendulum swing to narrower sidecuts include Blizzard, who has already launched a full-scale revival of their Quattro label for immediate consumer consumption.  Headlined by two models, the RX (84mm underfoot) and RS (72mm) with a common construction but one with tip and tail rocker and one without, the Quattro collection extends to 10 men’s models and another six SKU’s for women.  We’ve already essayed the top 4 models, and as we’ve come to expect from Blizzard, they’re stellar. Drive one if you get the chance.

Blizzard isn’t the only brand to go all-in on new Frontside and Technical models.  Atomic bids adieu to its Nomad collection, replacing them with the 9-model Vantage X series, all of which land squarely in the Frontside family.  Befitting the swing to narrower profiles, the flagship Vantage X is the 83 CTI; the Nomad Crimson Ti it replaces was 86cm.  If Carbon Tank Mesh invigorates the Vantage X series as much as it pumped up the power of the Vantage models, expect greatness.

Head and Fischer have long been identified with precise skis that bite into hard snow with the tenacity of a wolverine, reputations that won’t be harmed by the rejuvenation of Head’s Supershape series and the debut of The Curv models from Fischer.  These are unabashedly powerful skis, spun off from World Cup models but with a turn radius and flex pattern mere mortals can bend to their will. If you have the skills, you can extract endless energy from these elite carvers.

Nordica hit a home run with this year’s 100mm Enforcer; for 2017, the emphasis has shifted to the skinny spectrum with a 93mm Enforcer sibling, an 85mm NRGy and an entire overhaul of their Frontside skis, extinguishing Fire Arrows and replacing them with the GT series.  The GT construction emits evident echoes of the NRGy’s, so the newest Nordica’s should share that series power, tenacity and affinity for the fall line.

Perhaps no other Frontside ski of recent seasons has inspired as fanatical a following as the Kästle MX83. Reincarnated as the MX84, we have every reason to believe that Kästle has found a way to make this marvelous ride even more fluid.

As thrilled as we are to see a renewed emphasis on narrower skis, we readily admit to a personal predilection for powering through beat-up powder.  As a skier, I’m delighted anytime someone can make a ski around 100mm underfoot that doesn’t feel fat going edge to edge yet rides through 3D terrain in 3rd gear without dropping a stitch.  So thanks, Salomon, for raising your game with the QST 99 and hats off to Rossignol for not resting on its bushels of laurels and putting more power under the hood of its market-leading 7 series and Experience models. 

Considering that the market for fatter skis hasn’t exactly withered, it’s possible that what I hope is a trend to skinnier skis is nothing more than a normal product cycle rippling through a number of mainstream brands at the same frequency.  The Frontside category isn’t in any danger of extinction as long as the everyday European remains an on-piste skier, so it was due for some widespread reanimation at some point. 

But the reinvestment in the Frontside and Technical categories inspires hope, at least in this skier’s heart of hearts, that Americans will rediscover the joys of riding a narrower ski, such as speed control, trajectory management, balance and timing, more succinctly summarized as “skill.”

 
post #783 of 844
That is good news Seth. The fat ski thing has been a mixed blessing. Actually something like a 100-90-70 quiver probably covers it. For the kids who might only have $ for one pair it would be tricky. I have a 30+ quiver. This year I added a 71 and a 90. Both are rockerless. The 71 is the Blizzard RC TI in 172. The 90 is a Icelantic Shaman SKNY in 173. Haven't gotten much time on the Blizzards yet but the Shamans are particularly fantastic. They have just a great balanced feel in a foot or so of new snow as well as chopped up version of same. But also great on soft groom. Yesterday storm skiing at White Pass on Dynastar PR 105X184 with some tip rocker at times thought a wider ski may have been helpful off the ridge. Interestingly the young meat rockets on rockered planks were skiing deep snow off the cliffs with some flatter meadows to cross without poles??? Very odd. But who can really fathom the young mind? Do you realize on the MMPI the under 20 crowd scores as schizophrenic. The point I wanted to make is that even tho I am out here in the land of bottomless redi-mix I still chose the Shaman SKNY over the regular Shaman. Practicality based on education & experience which really is the essence of your article. As far as Vail/Beaver goes I would off er the following: "on an overcast day with some light occaisional mists, a foot or so of old powder from a week ago, mostly skied out. There comes a guy, skiing down the edge of the trail trying to hit the patches of untracked old, no longer really powder, whooping his head off cuz it is the best snow he has ever skied. This is the NW skier on his first trip to the Rockies."
post #784 of 844
Dear Jackson does it take more skill to ski a fat ski or a skinny ski well on a groomer?

BAAAAP Trick question - you cannot ski a fat ski well on a groomer. This is realskiers!!!!


Just kiddin around;)
post #785 of 844
Cavan.williams@umontana.edu
An actual study about the effect of wide skis on knees.
post #786 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Cavan.williams@umontana.edu
An actual study about the effect of wide skis on knees.

Do you mean this?

 

http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/article_b73f0f3a-b0ba-11e4-9f66-fb3b2e4b192c.html

 

"Right now we have data in the theoretical sense"  - now I'm not sure but I don't think even Big Pharma is brazen enough to pull that off as scientific proof.

 

BTW I'm not saying it's not true - the physics sounds plausible and anecdotally I can feel a loading with a wide ski on a firm surface but the human body is also pretty adept at adapting to different physical environments so I retain a bit of scepticism about this bete noire.  Kinda hard to double blind studies mind because its obvious what people have on their feet.

post #787 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
 

Do you mean this?

 

http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/article_b73f0f3a-b0ba-11e4-9f66-fb3b2e4b192c.html

 

"Right now we have data in the theoretical sense"  - now I'm not sure but I don't think even Big Pharma is brazen enough to pull that off as scientific proof.

 

BTW I'm not saying it's not true - the physics sounds plausible and anecdotally I can feel a loading with a wide ski on a firm surface but the human body is also pretty adept at adapting to different physical environments so I retain a bit of scepticism about this bete noire.  Kinda hard to double blind studies mind because its obvious what people have on their feet.

Here was another one I posted earlier:

 

http://skimoves.me/2014/11/26/fat-ski-syndrome/

post #788 of 844

Just got some video evidence that even princesses can carve a fat 95mm full rocker ski:

 

 

 :eek

 

ohh, the wobbliness of it !!

 

Furthermore, I have successfuly used some to loose a WC GS race, with the time of 8 minutes 32 seconds on a 29 second course. Time included stopping for a beer with the referee... video evidence looming. 

 

:beercheer: 


Edited by razie - 3/7/16 at 2:45pm
post #789 of 844
If you can ride skinnies you can ride fatties.
post #790 of 844
It's not that you can't carve fat skis, it's that you can't carve and fat skis prove it.
Edited by MastersRacer - 3/7/16 at 8:18pm
post #791 of 844

Are  you talking about "fart" skis?  or is it some other sort?  (of typo) ;-)

 

Volant Chubbs!  Cheater skis!

post #792 of 844
Feel the Steel.
post #793 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

Are  you talking about "fart" skis?  or is it some other sort?  (of typo) ;-)

Volant Chubbs!  Cheater skis!

Too. Err, typo.
post #794 of 844
Thread Starter 

Latest from Jackson Hogen: http://www.realskiers.com/NEWSLETTERS/better-skis-not-skiers.html

 

Why Haven't Better Skis Produced Better Skiers?

boot award

The perception inside the helmet may not match the view from outside.

This skier probably classifies himself as an expert.

 

When I orchestrated equipment reviews for Snow Country Magazine 25 years ago, all skis looked similar but the quality of the on-snow experience was all over the map.  Today skis come in a wild array of widths, sidecuts and baselines that impart all sorts of sensations, the better to serve an ever-expanding menu of skier desires.

What’s missing from the 2017 ski market are the truly bad models that formerly populated the bottom third of any genre under review.  A continuous cycle of product upgrades at roughly three to four year intervals, coupled with a pair of paradigm shifts spanning two decades of ski design, has winnowed out the weak reeds.  It’s become all but impossible to find a bad ski from a reputable manufacturer.

Which isn’t to say one can’t acquire an inappropriate ski, or that more expensive skis don’t have superior properties that merit their loftier price tags.  Better skis do ski better.  But the “average” ski has never been of higher quality, and skis that don’t earn best-in-class recognition in the annual avalanche of reviews are still fun to ski for anyone just out to have a good time.

The two design revolutions that swept through every R&D department in Christendom were shaped skis and fat boys.  The shaped ski metamorphosis held the promise that every man, woman and child could learn to carve on a continuous edge. 

The fat boy rebellion made sure they wouldn’t have to.

If fat skis had remained gargantuan versions of GS race skis, the words “powder stash” might still be meaningful.  But when rocker can along, bringing with it radically turned up tips and tails and baselines with all the camber pounded out, suddenly any numbskull could swivel sideways on a ski with the surface area of Monaco. 

The industry-wide adoption of rockered baselines enabled skiers who formerly struggled off trail to travel almost anywhere without the nuisance of actual skills development.  You don’t have to “learn to ski powder” when there are tools that enable you to flop down trails named “Enchanted Forest” with the same, butt-in-the-backseat stem turns that have been your signature move since you began calling yourself a skier.

The influx of an armada of intermediates into once sacred, experts-only domains made possible by fat, flat, rockered skis isn’t the end of the sins committed by ski makers anxious to entice the inept into buying skis that will magically bestow elite status.  Ski purveyors managed to convince an easily beguiled public that fat skis would make them better at everything, when something closer to the opposite is the case.

If skiers don’t know how to achieve a high edge angle and apply pressure to said edge, putting them on too wide a ski will ensure that this skill forever eludes them.  They’ll never feel comfortable with their feet extended away from the center line, so the nirvana of continuous carving that the advent of shaped skis seemed poised to bestow remains for them eternally out of reach.

Fortunately, there’s a plethora of great, not-so-fat models that are pure bliss on edge.  This is an important schism in the world of ski design that all ski buyers should note: narrower skis are meant to maximize the accuracy of edge-to-hard-snow contact while their chubby polar opposites seek to optimize – and to some degree minimize – the base-to-soft-snow connection. The two families could not be much more different.

What they have in common is that almost every major ski maker makes both types of skis in the same factories so both are made with the same level of quality.  So while it’s really hard to find a bad ski, it’s very easy to pick the wrong one for you.

But improper ski selection isn’t the only reason why today’s skis are better than today’s skiers.  A more likely suspect is Americans’ aversion to taking lessons.  Skiers in this country seem to reach of level of contentment with their skiing when it allows them to self-define as “expert” despite all evidence to the contrary.

Our illusions are among our dearest possessions.  Lord knows I would not have made it this far in life’s parade without a pocketful of self-deceptions.  So please don’t inflate your wattles in umbrage when I suggest that many skiers who consider themselves advanced are living in a state of suspended illusion.                                                      

There is a quick, readily available and free means of discovering whether your skills in fact match your self-image: activate the video function on your cell phone and have someone you love – and can trust to destroy the file if necessary - film you during a typical descent.

Remember, the best skiers in the world have coaches. Chances are the everyday recreational skier might benefit from some coaching, as well.

post #795 of 844

Hmm  same old form - some decent core points like the general standard of skis being really good these days and lessons/coaching being a good idea for everyone overwhelmed by a huge stench of reactionary elitist BS cos the less worthy can actually have fun in the elite's "stashes". Guess what those people you are looking down on are having fun and don't care and will likely never read your copy.

 


As I've said earlier in this thread the real problem with the American public is in the price and accessibility of lessons.  Look to fix that industry guys rather than just bitching about people having an aversion to lessons.

 

 

 

PS swivelling a ski sideways in powder can be f'in great fun!! 

post #796 of 844
Well judging by a week in Verbier, European piste skiers love their carving skis. I would not say the general level of skiing is higher. Except for fog ability but then you're weeding most out.

I don't know that it's "elitist stashes" . Everyone complains about powder longevity. No question fat skis are to blame there.
post #797 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post

Hmm  same old form - some decent core points like the general standard of skis being really good these days and lessons/coaching being a good idea for everyone overwhelmed by a huge stench of reactionary elitist BS cos the less worthy can actually have fun in the elite's "stashes". Guess what those people you are looking down on are having fun and don't care and will likely never read your copy.



As I've said earlier in this thread the real problem with the American public is in the price and accessibility of lessons.  Look to fix that industry guys rather than just bitching about people having an aversion to lessons.



PS swivelling a ski sideways in powder can be f'in great fun!! 

No doubt. The whole point is not having to be an expert. Because sports definitely thrive on elitism over accessibility. Back to the days when skis sucked!
post #798 of 844
People may not like what Masia or Hogen say, but they know what they're talking about. We'll be in a crowded liftline, no powder anywhere it's all groomers, and half the people will be on wide skis with rockered tips. The other half on 80 or 85+ wide skis. You see hardly anyone on narrower skis. Look at skiers coming down any of the runs, skidding all over, very few can set an edge. They're having fun and that's fine, it's the whole point of skiing. But Masia and Hogen are right.
post #799 of 844
It's more fun on the edge.
post #800 of 844
Well they are right some people are on inappropriate skis for their ski level or the terrain/conditions they usually ski. But they are also filtering through a lens which sees carving as the holy grail and denigrating people whose skills don't match their ideal.

It's just getting old - skiing is meant to be a fun activity not a supreme technical demonstration. The majority of participants don't care. If you get your kicks from scribing perfect pencil lines on a groomer all power to you but don't make the mistake that everyone aspires to that.

Take a trip to Europe, as Tog says above there are more than enough people pounding groomers on piste performance skis. And guess what the great majority are still skiing shittily. It ain't the skis. The fact that they are 6 days a year holiday skiers just having fun might be a factor though.
post #801 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahski View Post

People may not like what Masia or Hogen say, but they know what they're talking about. We'll be in a crowded liftline, no powder anywhere it's all groomers, and half the people and have will be on wide skis with rockered tips. The other half on 80 or 85+ wide skis. You see hardly anyone on narrower skis. Look at skiers coming down any of the runs, skidding all over, very few can set an edge. They're having fun and that's fine, it's the whole point of skiing. But Masia and Hogen are right.

 

 

What? An old fart elitist know something about skiing? Impossible! Just because they have spent their entire adult lives in the industry cannot possibly give them any special insights. In fact it is a proven opinion expressed time and time again by the self appointed gurus of the instruction forum that such a long term involvement in methodically teaching others to ski over the decades that saw enormous changes in ski equipment leads only to dogmatic and moribund conclusion about the effects of the newest technology on the average recreational skier.

 

New ski technology has liberated us from skill acquisition. Long live 130mm wide banana skis, good for powder and ice. Leave carving to the octogenarian elitists and have fun sliding sideways just like beginner boarders. Who the hell are these old pros that dare speak of skills in an instruction forum? :rolleyes

post #802 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahski View Post
 Look at skiers coming down any of the runs, skidding all over, very few can set an edge.

 

You know I'm younger and al,l but I have hunch that what your describing has always been true. The vast majority have, do and always will suck. Very few people have the desire to become really good at a sport/hobby whether that be tennis, golf or swimming. I mean just go to a pool and look at all those people flailing around in the pool instead of using proper strokes :rolleyes. We could put everyone on 60mm carving skis and they would all still be sliding their tails around and poor skiers in general. Equipment is expensive why would someone that can only afford one pair buy a tool that's designed for a specific sub set of skiing. There is no reason for the general public to be on something skinnier then an 80-85 mm ski.

 

People will always emulate what they think is cool and will buy an image. Do we really think that most of the people driving trucks/jeeps with 6in lifts and 35in tires really need that capability. There cars drive so much worse because of it but it's what they want. If some gaper wants to feel like McConkey by being on some 120mm ski when it hasn't snowed in 2 weeks, well at least he's out skiing. As a few others have said let's make lessons more accessible and you might see a change.      

post #803 of 844

Why Haven't Better Skis Produced Better Skiers?

 

Good question and here is my analogous answer. It is the difference between using a pickaxe or dynamite to mine a tunnel. While the proper technique of swinging a pickaxe can be easily reproduced from visual interpretation it is a lot of work to facilitate. While using dynamite produces the desired effect much more easily and is seemingly even more simple to facilitate with the light of a match, the interpretation of its process in a manner that would produce consistent and safe results, requires an even more fundamental understanding of its theoretical elements hidden to the naked eye and a scenario that likens itself to the idiom, "loose cannon".

 

There is that and the long held precedent that, like true love, a good turn can never be bought.

post #804 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurel Hill Crazie View Post
 

 

 

What? An old fart elitist know something about skiing? Impossible!  :rolleyes

 

Very cute.  But given they undoubtedly do know a lot about skiing how about doing something positive to change the paradigm?  Lobby their ski schools/ski school contacts to introduce a lesson sampler programme where any pro can hand out free coupons good for a group taster lesson to those who they think could really use it?  Push for more "continuity of a single instructor" with groups?  Introduce "young punk" lessons free with the purchase of fatty rockers from the tied retail store?  Do these things carefully and they needn't be detrimental to the bottom line of their employer.

 

 

Or just continue whining about how people are on the wrong skis and lack skills and should take more lessons. I dunno - that might change things, but probably hasn't so far.

post #805 of 844
I'm all for banning fat skis. That way powder would last. If that's elitist fine.

Just to reiterate, what I saw in Europe was appropriate gear for piste skiing. Lots of slalom and race type skis. No great skill differences though. Maybe less high speed stupidity. As in uncontrolled or lacking the skills to control direction.
Edited by Tog - 3/23/16 at 1:35pm
post #806 of 844
Quote:
Why Haven't Better Skis Produced Better Skiers?

 

The influx of an armada of intermediates into once sacred, experts-only domains made possible by fat, flat, rocketed skis....

 

So haven't they? I'm confused. I guess it depends on your definition of "better," or your definition of "is."

post #807 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

^^^ truth.

Dalbello is on the record that they have changed their boots to adapt to the new rocker technology, so there is less forward lean and ramp angle. I can't wait for for the OP to write another "scathing" article about this. IMO boots are more important than skis. 

go to time 1:35 for the statement.


 
The same thing has happened to race boots. So....?
post #808 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
 

 

Very cute.  But given they undoubtedly do know a lot about skiing how about doing something positive to change the paradigm?  Lobby their ski schools/ski school contacts to introduce a lesson sampler programme where any pro can hand out free coupons good for a group taster lesson to those who they think could really use it?  Push for more "continuity of a single instructor" with groups?  Introduce "young punk" lessons free with the purchase of fatty rockers from the tied retail store?  Do these things carefully and they needn't be detrimental to the bottom line of their employer.

 

 

Or just continue whining about how people are on the wrong skis and lack skills and should take more lessons. I dunno - that might change things, but probably hasn't so far.

 

Wow!   what a way to drum up business!   "we think your skiing is crap, so here's a free lesson!" :D   hmmm, let's see how that works!    Maybe better to just pay instructors less to reduce the cost of lessons.....:popcorn  :)

post #809 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

 

Wow!   what a way to drum up business!   "we think your skiing is crap, so here's a free lesson!" :D   hmmm, let's see how that works!    Maybe better to just pay instructors less to reduce the cost of lessons.....:popcorn  :)

 

Umm not the same at all. Demonstrating the benefit of lessons to people who would otherwise might not take one is a way to develop repeat business. Not just for lessons but to the mountain as well. New skiers who feel like they are progressing and enjoying their trip are that much more likely to return. Considering the struggles to bring new blood into the sport not such a ridiculous idea. Especially when you do things like tying it to the purchase of equipment which gets people further invested in the sport.   

post #810 of 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post
 

 

Wow!   what a way to drum up business!   "we think your skiing is crap, so here's a free lesson!" :D   hmmm, let's see how that works!    Maybe better to just pay instructors less to reduce the cost of lessons.....:popcorn  :)

 


Well obviously I'm sure some appropriate gloss and flattery can be put on it - complimentary coaching programme etc etc.  The point is it's not beyond the wit of man to come up with some ideas that might help some hacks get in the habit of taking lessons and perhaps even build the overall paid lesson taking pool

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