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Ski technique - Page 12  

post #331 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post


sure doesn't look like beginning to flatten anywhere near these 2 gates. I am not saying one shouldn't, I just don't see it here

So in which frame is the maximum edge in this pic?

post #332 of 1267

I believe that the ruts show where the most effort/ highest edge angles occur.   Let's go examine a few well worn courses.  YM

post #333 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
sure doesn't look like beginning to flatten anywhere near these 2 gates. I am not saying one shouldn't, I just don't see it here

 

Where do you think the majority of the turn should happen?

post #334 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
The funny thing about the NY Times video is that just after he talks about pushing, both skis are off the snow. How's that for pushing?

 

That and Phil McNichols talk about wanting to be heavy in transition, combined with huge amount of empirical data that there is NO pressure in transition almost makes me think there is a big scam going on to hide what is really happening. 

 

If Ted really had unique technique they would certainly not talk about it in the public.

 

If I was a WC level racer making millions per year I sure as heck wouldn't share my secrets on being the fastest with my competitors! And I can't believe anyone else would either.

post #335 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 

 

If I was a WC level racer making millions per year I sure as heck wouldn't share my secrets on being the fastest with my competitors! And I can't believe anyone else would either.

 

 

Most likely however if you're a coach looking for racer(s) that's a different matter. Below is an interesting waist steering concept.... if you want to hear the executive summary first, go to 4:32 and hear Ligety talk about his hip.

 

 

 

 

btw, this was mentioned by some members from this forum. 

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/45875/steering-from-the-hips-waiststeering#post_579318

post #336 of 1267
Thanks, Jack.
post #337 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
The funny thing about the NY Times video is that just after he talks about pushing, both skis are off the snow. How's that for pushing?

 

That and Phil McNichols talk about wanting to be heavy in transition, combined with huge amount of empirical data that there is NO pressure in transition almost makes me think there is a big scam going on to hide what is really happening. 

 

If Ted really had unique technique they would certainly not talk about it in the public.

 

If I was a WC level racer making millions per year I sure as heck wouldn't share my secrets on being the fastest with my competitors! And I can't believe anyone else would either.


That cold be... but also, in talking about what they do, since there is no "canonical" way to do things, we'll hear all sorts of words around similar ideas... Also it's a matter of what you're teaching to whom. If you have a group that's extending and pushing "up" (which most do) you may want to get them to stop that, feel "heavy" i.e. in contact with the snow and start moving forward instead.

 

That's "classic" GS tech, at least at the lower levels.

 

Of course we know better about pushing vs pulling while you're edging, but that's the way it's generally taught (to me as well). We know that at the higher levels, pulling is the better way to get forward :)

 

Think about this for a second: pulling when heavy feels more like pushing?

post #338 of 1267

btw.... here's a kinesiology breakdown of the waist steering. The old thread I linked to from forum members alluded to this. imo, you can see it apply in shiffrin's sl run.

 

 

 

 

post #339 of 1267

:popcorn

post #340 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View PostThat is not what is happening at 4:02.  He didn't step from BTE to BTE he had moved hips up over lte and then rolled uphill ski to BTE before he was completely off of downhill ski yet What you are describing....BTE to BTE step is like the old move we used to make to adjust line on old straight skis because you couldn't carve a small enough arc to get around a gate and had to step to change your line. That is NOT what this is!  

Look back at 4:00 and 4:01  It is just what I have been saying...He rolls his old inside ski (uphill) before he rolls the old outside(downhill) Clear as a bell!!!

 

Yeah, agree with you. Thats basicly what I said. Or ment. Must have done that insufficiently. He extends his inside leg while its on its LTE but rolls it to its BTE before the outside ski goes from BTE to LTE. Correct. Still dont understand why my description was different. Anyway, I saw Fenninger do the same at least a couple of times last year. However, I dont think its more than a glitch. Bad timing. Happens sometimes. they make 50 turns. One is like this. cant be a very vital part of their tactics. Or?

post #341 of 1267
Yeah, agree with you. Thats basicly what I said. Or ment. Must have done that insufficiently. He extends his inside leg while its on its LTE but rolls it to its BTE before the outside ski goes from BTE to LTE. Correct. Still dont understand why my description was different. Anyway, I saw Fenninger do the same at least a couple of times last year. However, I dont think its more than a glitch. Bad timing. Happens sometimes. they make 50 turns. One is like this. cant be a very vital part of their tactics. Or?
[/quote]

It's intentional.

Too many instances from different sources including the Ski Racing Magazine Montage and verbiage!
Edited by Atomicman - 12/12/15 at 9:50am
post #342 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Yeah, agree with you. Thats basicly what I said. Or ment. Must have done that insufficiently. He extends his inside leg while its on its LTE but rolls it to its BTE before the outside ski goes from BTE to LTE. Correct. Still dont understand why my description was different. Anyway, I saw Fenninger do the same at least a couple of times last year. However, I dont think its more than a glitch. Bad timing. Happens sometimes. they make 50 turns. One is like this. cant be a very vital part of their tactics. Or?
[/quote]

It's intentional.

Too many instances from different sources including the Ski Racing Magazine Montage and verbiage!

 

How much of this would you say is a result of the R35m skis on a tight course? And is this GS specific? If it is it will never carry over to regular skiing because we use skis with a much tighter turn radius.

post #343 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

It's intentional.

Too many instances from different sources including the Ski Racing Magazine Montage and verbiage!

 

If it was intentional then we'd see it in nearly every turn because its so easy to get on both BTE's at the same time.

post #344 of 1267
Argh.
post #345 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

btw.... here's a kinesiology breakdown of the waist steering. The old thread I linked to from forum members alluded to this. imo, you can see it apply in shiffrin's sl run.




 

LOL!

zenny
post #346 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 

 

If it was intentional then we'd see it in nearly every turn because its so easy to get on both BTE's at the same time.

You don't understand at all what is happening. 

 

He has rolled to the BTE of the uphill ski before he is completely off the BTE of the downhill ski.  Only happens for a very very short amount of time

This is how early he is beginning to carve the new ski

 

Think what you want ski as you'd like.

 

But this same turn keeps showing up over and over in different shots. 

post #347 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
He has rolled to the BTE of the uphill ski before he is completely off the BTE of the downhill ski.

 

What is the benefit of being on both BTE's at the same time?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
But this same turn keeps showing up over and over in different shots. 

 

Except when it doesn't show up, which is often.

post #348 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 

 

Except when it doesn't show up, which is often.

Almost no technique in skiing or racing is used absolutely 100% of the time........Open your mind!

 

 

 

He is getting onto the carving edge of his new outside ski very early...so early in fact it is  before he is even completely off of his old outside ski. Allows him to be hooked up and carving the new ski early at the top of the turn.

 

Rather than waiting to be 100% off the old outside ski or worse yet...waiting to get off the old outside ski and flip it to the LTE.   

 

Do you see how this allows him to start carving earlier?

 

Last time I say it!  It is so simple.


Edited by Atomicman - 12/12/15 at 8:26pm
post #349 of 1267
Can the ski carve before critical platform angle? How does a ski edged to 5 degrees affect the CoM at 60 mph?
post #350 of 1267
Too late, Jamt. A man is talking about getting on it EARLY!
post #351 of 1267
It's not a patience turn that he is talking about. More like an impatient turn.
post #352 of 1267
Sure you have a benefit of being on 5deg BTE early. Insted of 5deg LTE. And 5deg makes a huge difference at higher edge angles.
post #353 of 1267

This is a weird thread. 

 

#1. Getting the hips forward of the boots (i.e. COM in front of BOS)  is critical and the focus of all race coaching, as evidenced in both USSA and CSCF guides (and likely everyone else's). If @Art of Skiing thinks otherwise, can certainly take it up with those, in his mind, no-goodnics and maybe teach them a thing or two.

 

#2 Rolling knees. We don't. We roll the ankles and the visible element is the knees moving, as most recently confirmed by Mikaela's drill voice-over. You can certainly take it up with her if you don't think she understands skiing. Maybe teach her a thing or two about skiing, eh?

 

How do we roll the ankles? Well, either on or off the edge, as need be. Which one do we roll first? That's the 1000$ question, isn't it?

 

A) We like to keep shins parallel, as the default. Claiming otherwise would be weird, if not an outright blunder. The only exception is when the shins are not parallel for a good reason, like a COM release (which is known to cause an A-frame, as explained in several materials, including USSA's). No racer is intentionally trying to put the skis at different angles to the snow and if A-man would know his releases, it would be clear to him what he's looking at and when.

 

B) So to the observer, it seems that we're rolling both ankles at the same time... one to the LTE and one to the BTE, logically. And that should be the default assumption. However,

B1) we don't weight both skis equally. One is 100% weighted and the other unweighted. Do you think that makes a difference?

B2) which is easier in your mind, from a nice neutral stance with shins parallel: going A-framed like you want to pee or bowlegged?

 

Now it's a simple question of logic and biomechanics to combine the B1 and B2 in the context of a release and in the context of an engagement, i.e. which foot is loaded and in which direction we like to tip them to and you'll reach the only logical conclusion that the effort should be directed to tipping to the LTE in both cases, i.e. all the time. As confirmed again by USSA's manuals among others.

 

 It's not that hard really.


Edited by razie - 12/13/15 at 9:15am
post #354 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

btw.... here's a kinesiology breakdown of the waist steering. The old thread I linked to from forum members alluded to this. imo, you can see it apply in shiffrin's sl run.




 

Whole body rotation into the turn? See a lot of that on the mountain. Didn't Rick/Fastman sign up to coach with this "system" some time back?
post #355 of 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post


Whole body rotation into the turn? See a lot of that on the mountain. Didn't Rick/Fastman sign up to coach with this "system" some time back?

 

 

yep....old post I reference before. IMO, the guy who originated this and published papers is bringing it back up because he see this or parts of it used successfully at the WC level. 

 

 http://www.epicski.com/t/45875/steering-from-the-hips-waiststeering#post_579318

 

 

btw, props to Rick for being ahead of the curve. 

post #356 of 1267

 

 

:nono:

post #357 of 1267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

 

 

Most likely however if you're a coach looking for racer(s) that's a different matter. Below is an interesting waist steering concept.... if you want to hear the executive summary first, go to 4:32 and hear Ligety talk about his hip.

 

 

btw, this was mentioned by some members from this forum. 

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/45875/steering-from-the-hips-waiststeering#post_579318

This is such bogus in my opinion. First of all, someone who uses the term 'steering' when talking about carving is already wrong, because carving is done with the radius of the ski, hence no steering involved... Second of all, skiing with counter/rotation is not a new concept in skiing. In my opinion that guy made up some crap based upon a concept that has been around for ages, gave it some fancy name and used a big name in skiing, just to look cool. Unfortunately I cannot recall where I've read or heard this, but I remember that Ted Ligety has said this waist steering crap does not work, because it will result in weak stacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

This is a weird thread. 

 

#1. Getting the hips forward of the boots (i.e. COM in front of BOS)  is critical and the focus of all race coaching, as evidenced in both USSA and CSCF guides (and likely everyone else's). If @Art of Skiing thinks otherwise, can certainly take it up with those, in his mind, no-goodnics and maybe teach them a thing or two.

 

#2 Rolling knees. We don't. We roll the ankles and the visible element is the knees moving, as most recently confirmed by Mikaela's drill voice-over. You can certainly take it up with her if you don't think she understands skiing. Maybe teach her a thing or two about skiing, eh?

 

How do we roll the ankles? Well, either on or off the edge, as need be. Which one do we roll first? That's the 1000$ question, isn't it?

 

A) We like to keep shins parallel, as the default. Claiming otherwise would be weird, if not an outright blunder. The only exception is when the shins are not parallel for a good reason, like a COM release (which is known to cause an A-frame, as explained in several materials, including USSA's). No racer is intentionally trying to put the skis at different angles to the snow and if A-man would know his releases, it would be clear to him what he's looking at and when.

 

B) So to the observer, it seems that we're rolling both ankles at the same time... one to the LTE and one to the BTE, logically. And that should be the default assumption. However,

B1) we don't weight both skis equally. One is 100% weighted and the other unweighted. Do you think that makes a difference?

B2) which is easier in your mind, from a nice neutral stance with shins parallel: going A-framed like you want to pee or bowlegged?

 

Now it's a simple question of logic and biomechanics to combine the B1 and B2 in the context of a release and in the context of an engagement, i.e. which foot is loaded and in which direction we like to tip them to and you'll reach the only logical conclusion that the effort should be directed to tipping to the LTE in both cases, i.e. all the time. As confirmed again by USSA's manuals among others.

 

 It's not that hard really.

If it's that critical, why do we hardly see it? I'd say over 90% of the time wc skiers are skiing with their feet behind or over their hips and not in front...

post #358 of 1267
You kind of fail in biomechanics art of skiing. Go click your boots into your skis and roll them on edge into bigger and bigger edge angles. If you watch the cuffs of the boots, the more forward the boots point as edge angles increase. You HAVE to move your hips forward of your feet the more you tip the skis.
post #359 of 1267
I could see slight steering @ transition or on a flat ski at granny mode. Otherwise no.
post #360 of 1267
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

You kind of fail in biomechanics art of skiing. Go click your boots into your skis and roll them on edge into bigger and bigger edge angles. If you watch the cuffs of the boots, the more forward the boots point as edge angles increase. You HAVE to move your hips forward of your feet the more you tip the skis.

I disagree. What you are basically saying is you cannot ski with big edge angles if you are in the back seat, which is a false statement (ever seen Bode Miller ski?) Second of all, your outside leg is extended a lot when skiing with big edge angle and it is incredibly difficult if not near impossible to get your hip in front of your boot when the outside leg is fully extended. Hips over your feet, yes, in front of, hardly.

If you would be right, I'd say my eyes are failing me too, because like I said, over 90% of the time world cup skiers are with their feet over or behind their feet. How do you explain that? Or do you really think I am blind?

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