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Drill advice please - Page 2

post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

When you open up the wedge and shift your weight out over the outside ski by antulation to pressure it you have moved the outside ski out away from underneath your CoM. If you were to bring your inside ski parallel to your outside ski you would have both skis out from underneath your CoM. And it would look like a perfect parallel stance, hips into the turn and levelled shoulders. This is something the advocates of a very narrow wedge loose out on. We typically teach 3-4 year old kids to wedge. If they do it properly they will be carving parallel in 3y or so.

If you say so...  I've seen your video of your "wedge" demos.  I can often get an athletic adult student skiing parallel in 3 hours.  I don't advocate what you are describing.

post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 

 

Or perhaps most are unwilling to do this because they've been taught using the uber stable wedge with the CoM between the two skis.

 

On the contrary. The whole purpose of the wedge is to let the skis out from underneath your CoM.

 

Umm...the CoM is between the two skis during a wedge.

post #33 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

Umm...the CoM is between the two skis during a wedge.

But your outside ski is out from underneath your center. And your hips are angulated into the turn. Offcourse you need to apply active weight transfer to get the full effect. Just like in a stem turn.
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

If you say so...  I've seen your video of your "wedge" demos.  I can often get an athletic adult student skiing parallel in 3 hours.  I don't advocate what you are describing.

3 h is not relevant to me. Im more interested in what the student does in 3 years. However, Im not arguing if wedging is superior to DTP. Just commenting on the fact that the outside ski is outside of the COM. BTW you have any DTP demos to share?
post #35 of 40

I think 3 years to get to carving parallel skiing is too long.:nono: 

Spending three years in a wedge (or doing wedge christies 50 years ago)? It is no wonder they have trouble getting rid of bad habits.

post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I think 3 years to get to carving parallel skiing is too long.nonono2.gif  
Spending three years in a wedge (or doing wedge christies 50 years ago)? It is no wonder they have trouble getting rid of bad habits.

Note, didnt say it takes 3 y just that I look at skiing in a bit longer perspective than 3 hours.
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

When you open up the wedge and shift your weight out over the outside ski by antulation to pressure it you have moved the outside ski out away from underneath your CoM. If you were to bring your inside ski parallel to your outside ski you would have both skis out from underneath your CoM. And it would look like a perfect parallel stance, hips into the turn and levelled shoulders. This is something the advocates of a very narrow wedge loose out on. We typically teach 3-4 year old kids to wedge. If they do it properly they will be carving parallel in 3y or so.


I'm confused. :confused Did you mean they will be carving parallel at 3 years old, or did you mean they will be carving parallel in 3 years from when you teach the wedge? 

post #38 of 40

It's not a straight comparison.  TDK is talking about teaching very young kids and having them become strong carvers in 3 years.  A 5-6 yo who makes strong parallel turns is a pretty good result.  I don't often teach DTP.  When I do it's usually because the student is a hockey player or something like that.  I use the wedge as training wheels to enhance lateral balance.  I like a narrow wedge.  I teach speed control through turn shape and turn initiation through releasing the old outside edge from day 1.  The wedge disappears spontaneously as the inside ski goes from flat to LTE earlier in the turn.

post #39 of 40
It would be cool to hear your personal progression for that, if and when you have time and don't mind sharing.
Thanks
post #40 of 40

I don't teach a lot of beginner students anymore.  It's funny though that I am still mostly teaching speed control through turn shape and initiating a turn through releasing the old outside edge to advanced students.  I don't have a progression per se.  I try to build a lesson plan for a student around what I see that is both present and lacking in their skiing.

 

For FDB students I usually start with moving around on one ski and then two skis on the flats.  I like to get them using their inside edges and poles to provide movement.  Some will be better than others at this.  I want to see a student moving with and over their skis even on the flats.  Then I will introduce sidestepping up the hill.  We don't go far and the "hill" is flat.  I want to see the student finding and using both BTE and LTE for grip, making adjustments using rotary skills to keep their skis perpendicular to the fall line, and using their poles in a coordinated way to help with the stepping.  Then I introduce the bull fighter turn as a means to get the skis from pointed across the hill to pointed down the hill or as a means to get from pointed in one direction to the other without sliding away.  We practice moving from parallel to wedge positions statically while facing down hill in the bull fighter position.  We do some short gliding wedges into the catchers mitt.  We play around with opening and closing the wedge during the glide.  I like to see both feet opening and closing together.  If the student isn't able to do a straight gliding wedge I use it as a teachable moment often with a "guided discovery" teaching style.  Then we do single wedge turns to a stop in one direction then the other.  I want my students to learn to stop by completing a turn and not by using the wedge to slow down.  

 

Then we move to the rope tow and work on a series of garland turns in both directions.  When we get to this step I try to introduce a small amount of upper/lower body separation and a directional movement into the turn.  The directional movement is small and is accomplished by a slight extension of the knees moving the hips forward and across the skis the skis at turn initiation.  This movement helps release the old outside edge and gets the skis turning down the hill.  Pressure builds naturally on the outside ski once the skis are turning. 

 

Once we have moved from garlands into complete turns I like to set up some cones for the student to turn around.  I set the cones in a way that forces the student to complete the turn and feel the speed control that comes with turn completion.  The cone set also forces one turn to go right into the next.  I don't like hanging out and traversing between turns and I don't like turn shopping.  Usually as the student gets smoother and a bit faster in the cones the inside ski is tipping more and starting to spontaneously match with the outside ski.  Many students think they are doing it wrong when they notice they aren't wedging through the whole turn.

 

A lesson plan along these lines will get most FDB skiers turning and matching their skis after the fall line in a few hours.  I like to be out of the rope tow area and onto the beginner chairlift before lunch.  I like to see matching of the skis at or before the fall line by the end of the day on all green terrain.  Working this way I haven't taught the student anything that they will need to unlearn later. 

 

I hope this is helpful.

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