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Not scraping the wax off - Page 3

post #61 of 88

Seems to me a hard steel brush or maybe even a copper/bronse one with too much pressure would have some impact in reducing that nice new structure I paid to have put on my skis with a base grind.  Of course if you did the base grind yourself with a sharp steel scrapper, or if it's been forever since you've had a base grind a few good strokes might add some grooves :D.

 

Call me chicken if you want; I will save the metal for occasional p-tex hair removal and prefer softer materials for removing wax.  It does take longer though.

post #62 of 88

I use a softer brass brush after scrape when using colder waxes like the CH4-6.....good luck with brushing the CH4 off with just horsehair/nylon (even with roto).

 

No issues to base at all, I'd have to make a concerted effort to damage the base using a soft brass brush.....even then not sure if possible with hand brush.

post #63 of 88

It's not a problem that you would damage base with that. You won't, afterall you use brass brush on clean base before waxing, where there would be more chance to damage base, then when there's extra layer of wax on top, but this what I wrote is performance vise. And you do end up with faster skis with leaving brass brush on shelf after wax is applied and using brush made for that part of procedure.

I guess we all noticed until now Jacques has some fetish to cool looking steel tools, but 1000s (probably it's actually more like 100.000s then just 1000s) of ski and wax tests, which I have done in through my career, give more relevant data. :D 

post #64 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

No. I only use non-metal brushes after I wax. Roto and regular, stiff to soft. I save metal for pre wax structure cleaning.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

If you mean this for after scrapping, then yes, it would be problem ;) Leave brass/copper for opening base before waxing, and use nylon/horse/wild boar brushes (depending on temperature, humidy and wax applied) after scrapping.
PS: With "yes it would be problem" I'm talking purely from performance point of view. Otherwise you will be fine. You won't damage skis or anything.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


No problem at all.  Don't listen to the not using steel, brass, bronze, copper for post wax brushing.  Now I have to go ski!  Day 18 for me today!

 

Well that makes it clear as mud. I may just have to do a little more research and experiment a bit. 

post #65 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

It's not a problem that you would damage base with that. You won't, afterall you use brass brush on clean base before waxing, where there would be more chance to damage base, then when there's extra layer of wax on top, but this what I wrote is performance vise. And you do end up with faster skis with leaving brass brush on shelf after wax is applied and using brush made for that part of procedure.

I guess we all noticed until now Jacques has some fetish to cool looking steel tools, but 1000s (probably it's actually more like 100.000s then just 1000s) of ski and wax tests, which I have done in through my career, give more relevant data. :D 


Thanks primoz.  If anyone on here should be listened to when it comes to waxing and brushing it's you.  I need to find me some better brushes.  What would you suggest I get (starting from scratch - my metal brush is 1/2 and 1/2 for cross country ski - doesn't work well for real ski and I have a collection of inadequate softer brushes not made for skis)?

post #66 of 88
Ghost first and most important question... racing or just well prepared skis for hobby skiing? It matters as for racing you need much more stuff, even with brushes it depends on snow and conditions.
post #67 of 88

Just hobby skiing, but I do take my hobby seriously. :cool   In order to quickly get speed up on small hills, I need all the help from the wax that I can get :D.

post #68 of 88

I've never been so pressed for time that I skip the scrape. I look forward to slinging a little wax. I turn on some tunes, grab a frosty barley pop and get all Zen with it. The wife and I have two pair of alpines each and each a pair of teles and I'm just really getting a good groove on when I run out of skis.

post #69 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Seems to me a hard steel brush or maybe even a copper/bronse one with too much pressure would have some impact in reducing that nice new structure I paid to have put on my skis with a base grind.  Of course if you did the base grind yourself with a sharp steel scrapper, or if it's been forever since you've had a base grind a few good strokes might add some grooves :D.

 

Call me chicken if you want; I will save the metal for occasional p-tex hair removal and prefer softer materials for removing wax.  It does take longer though.


I would not call Ghost a chicken, but a steel brush is not going to hurt your structure!  Especially by hand!  I do it to fancy skis all the time.

post #70 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 

I use a softer brass brush after scrape when using colder waxes like the CH4-6.....good luck with brushing the CH4 off with just horsehair/nylon (even with roto).

 

No issues to base at all, I'd have to make a concerted effort to damage the base using a soft brass brush.....even then not sure if possible with hand brush.


Truth!  There it is!

post #71 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

It's not a problem that you would damage base with that. You won't, afterall you use brass brush on clean base before waxing, where there would be more chance to damage base, then when there's extra layer of wax on top, but this what I wrote is performance vise. And you do end up with faster skis with leaving brass brush on shelf after wax is applied and using brush made for that part of procedure.

I guess we all noticed until now Jacques has some fetish to cool looking steel tools, but 1000s (probably it's actually more like 100.000s then just 1000s) of ski and wax tests, which I have done in through my career, give more relevant data. :D 


My data comes from the seat of my pants!  Years of it as well.

post #72 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

No. I only use non-metal brushes after I wax. Roto and regular, stiff to soft. I save metal for pre wax structure cleaning.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 

If you mean this for after scrapping, then yes, it would be problem ;) Leave brass/copper for opening base before waxing, and use nylon/horse/wild boar brushes (depending on temperature, humidy and wax applied) after scrapping.
PS: With "yes it would be problem" I'm talking purely from performance point of view. Otherwise you will be fine. You won't damage skis or anything.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


No problem at all.  Don't listen to the not using steel, brass, bronze, copper for post wax brushing.  Now I have to go ski!  Day 18 for me today!

 

Well that makes it clear as mud. I may just have to do a little more research and experiment a bit. 


Hey, that's the good thing about this place.  Lot's of opinions.  Then, you try some of them, and make up your own mind.

 

There really is no absolute right.  Although some may claim that to be so.  I do know as a super light weight that my skis will run with the best of them who are much heavier.

I must not be doing to bad eh?

post #73 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

It's not a problem that you would damage base with that. You won't, afterall you use brass brush on clean base before waxing, where there would be more chance to damage base, then when there's extra layer of wax on top, but this what I wrote is performance vise. And you do end up with faster skis with leaving brass brush on shelf after wax is applied and using brush made for that part of procedure.
I guess we all noticed until now Jacques has some fetish to cool looking steel tools, but 1000s (probably it's actually more like 100.000s then just 1000s) of ski and wax tests, which I have done in through my career, give more relevant data. biggrin.gif  

Suggestions on a brush for CH4/5 (LF4/5) or similar cold weather waxes. Stuff is like granite and I haven't found a good horsehair/boar hair/nylon that is stiff enough to brush it well. It's some work with a soft brass too, and found that the roto with horse hair or nylon just smears it at best (thinking some friction heat must be causing it vs actually brushing).

We use a lot of cold weather waxes up here in the Rockies, and they certainly are more durable even when we get back to our training hills that use a lot of man made snow.

I dread brushing at this time of year given the abundant use of cold weather waxes......but has to be done.

Open to suggestions.
post #74 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

It's not a problem that you would damage base with that. You won't, afterall you use brass brush on clean base before waxing, where there would be more chance to damage base, then when there's extra layer of wax on top, but this what I wrote is performance vise. And you do end up with faster skis with leaving brass brush on shelf after wax is applied and using brush made for that part of procedure.
I guess we all noticed until now Jacques has some fetish to cool looking steel tools, but 1000s (probably it's actually more like 100.000s then just 1000s) of ski and wax tests, which I have done in through my career, give more relevant data. biggrin.gif  

Suggestions on a brush for CH4/5 (LF4/5) or similar cold weather waxes. Stuff is like granite and I haven't found a good horsehair/boar hair/nylon that is stiff enough to brush it well. It's some work with a soft brass too, and found that the roto with horse hair or nylon just smears it at best (thinking some friction heat must be causing it vs actually brushing).

We use a lot of cold weather waxes up here in the Rockies, and they certainly are more durable even when we get back to our training hills that use a lot of man made snow.

I dread brushing at this time of year given the abundant use of cold weather waxes......but has to be done.

Open to suggestions.


I know you quoted Primoz, but I'll say it again right here!  Especially for hard waxes this is the ticket!

post #75 of 88
I use ch4 or ch2 as part of seasonal base prep, but not really during the season for "wax of the day", mostly because they are hell to get off. But.. after cooling the ski, I re-warm the wax, just enough to soften it, not make it liquid again, and scrape it some more until it's not coming off, then hit it with the stiff horse hair rotobrush and it comes off sufficiently. I can still see some whorls from the wax, even after the full succession of brushes, but it's more visual than anything. Haven't had any issues doing that. If, during the season, I thought the green hydrocarbon from Racewax wasn't going to cut it, I might mix in a tad of ch4 with it, but it's more trouble than it's worth in my experience. And I adore cold days. Keeps the slopes clear.
post #76 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Just hobby skiing, but I do take my hobby seriously. :cool   In order to quickly get speed up on small hills, I need all the help from the wax that I can get :D.

 

It's just hobby for me too nowadays, but with years of racing and being serviceman, I got a bit obsessed with these sort of things, so I could say I take it seriously too :D And nowadays with lack of real training, I need every possible help in xc skiing (where these things matter even more) so I need to have super fast skis to keep up with guys :D
Anyway... for hobby I would stick with just 2 brushes (or 3 if you are using fluoro overlays). Bronze brush (http://tinyurl.com/nrgne4q) for cleaning base and opening pores before waxing, nylon brush (http://tinyurl.com/ozlbvp3) for "polishing" after scraping, and if you use fluoro overlays horsehair/wild boar brush (http://tinyurl.com/px54v4x / http://tinyurl.com/qyxp52a) to finish ski after applying fluoro overlay on. I guess you can tell I prefer oval brushes then "normal" rectangular, but either will do. For roto brushes, it's same, but honestly, I doubt it's worth investment for hobby skiing, especially considering we don't have to prepare 20 or 30 pairs of skis a day :)
For racing, you keep on adding them, as I wrote before, it depends on wax, snow etc. which brush works best. Not to mention you have one brush for first brushing of fluoro overlay, and another to brush off overlays after last ironing. And of course you have one brush for one fluoro overlay, and another one for another (so that fluoro powders/blocks don't mix etc. etc. So especially for xc racing, you end up with one box of brushes only :)
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbear View Post


Suggestions on a brush for CH4/5 (LF4/5) or similar cold weather waxes. Stuff is like granite and I haven't found a good horsehair/boar hair/nylon that is stiff enough to brush it well. It's some work with a soft brass too, and found that the roto with horse hair or nylon just smears it at best (thinking some friction heat must be causing it vs actually brushing).

We use a lot of cold weather waxes up here in the Rockies, and they certainly are more durable even when we get back to our training hills that use a lot of man made snow.

I dread brushing at this time of year given the abundant use of cold weather waxes......but has to be done.

Open to suggestions.

 

Nylon brush works perfectly fine for this, after sharp plastic scraper ;) Roto sure helps, but it can easily be done with hand brushes too. We have all been doing this with hand brushes, when roto brushes weren't even invented yet, it just takes a bit more effort. But for pair or two of skis, it's really no big deal. A bit of proper technique helps and makes things a bit easier, but it's really nothing so special. 10, 15 passes and base is clean and polished even if CH4/LF4 type waxes :)

post #77 of 88
Yeah, scraper is always sharp. Pulled until there is pretty much no wax coming with it. Bases are very true as well.

Just haven't found the stiff nylons to do the trick through. Possibly can improve technique but learnt from race techs so pretty sure it's not that.

Regardless also have a roto and the nylon or the horsehair don't do a great job with the hard wax either. Fantastic for med to soft waxes and for second step passes though.

Guess I'll stick with what works. With 6 skis to prep all the time hoped I was just missing something. Suppose elbow grease builds character.....
post #78 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I use ch4 or ch2 as part of seasonal base prep, but not really during the season for "wax of the day", mostly because they are hell to get off. But.. after cooling the ski, I re-warm the wax, just enough to soften it, not make it liquid again, and scrape it some more until it's not coming off, then hit it with the stiff horse hair rotobrush and it comes off sufficiently. I can still see some whorls from the wax, even after the full succession of brushes, but it's more visual than anything. Haven't had any issues doing that. If, during the season, I thought the green hydrocarbon from Racewax wasn't going to cut it, I might mix in a tad of ch4 with it, but it's more trouble than it's worth in my experience. And I adore cold days. Keeps the slopes clear.


That defeats the purpose of letting the wax cool at room temp..

post #79 of 88
Maybe, but the package talks about warm scraping and at that point, I'm just continuing on anyway to final wax, so it'll get warmed again. It's more for ski base protection over the course of the winter when I use it alone. I accidentally discovered its protective properties one winter when I came across it in a box and said, "what's this stuff?". Thought I'd destroyed the skis at first, it was like Fabulon or something, but wow does it protect things. Experimenting now with ch2 instead. But then throwing on final wax afterwards, which doesn't get heated as high and they sort of blend together. I might reapply it if the edges are looking sketchy mid season.
post #80 of 88

Wait a minnit - are you mixing and matching CH2/CH4/CH5 and racewax.com WoD?  

 

'F'so, pls elaborate in (separate?) thread, yes?   

I know nothing about the racewax.com product - you're the guru on that.

post #81 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post

Yeah, scraper is always sharp. Pulled until there is pretty much no wax coming with it. Bases are very true as well.

Just haven't found the stiff nylons to do the trick through. Possibly can improve technique but learnt from race techs so pretty sure it's not that.

Regardless also have a roto and the nylon or the horsehair don't do a great job with the hard wax either. Fantastic for med to soft waxes and for second step passes though.

Guess I'll stick with what works. With 6 skis to prep all the time hoped I was just missing something. Suppose elbow grease builds character.....



Jacques has his quirks/ sibhusky has hers / My quirk is to chuck a 6x9 sheet of Fibertex into a sheet sander and use that between scrape and brush.

post #82 of 88
Sure, they're all hydrocarbon. Mix them all the time.
post #83 of 88

:) That's what I used to say -  until about the 5th or 6th hot gluey mess that acetone could barely get off. :D

But I was rather looking for more detailed application notes of the 

"10cm fine new snow on 2day-old partially converted with -20C air temps overnight and clear skies tomorrow calls for a CH5 base with xxxx on top" type. 

post #84 of 88
Fortunately I have a locker. If the wax seems like it might be seems for the day, there may be different skis in there, but seriously, I'm not racing. When I'm waxing, I look out a week at the expected weather and pick accordingly.
post #85 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Maybe, but the package talks about warm scraping and at that point, I'm just continuing on anyway to final wax, so it'll get warmed again. It's more for ski base protection over the course of the winter when I use it alone. I accidentally discovered its protective properties one winter when I came across it in a box and said, "what's this stuff?". Thought I'd destroyed the skis at first, it was like Fabulon or something, but wow does it protect things. Experimenting now with ch2 instead. But then throwing on final wax afterwards, which doesn't get heated as high and they sort of blend together. I might reapply it if the edges are looking sketchy mid season.


Okay, I get that.  As long as you let the day wax cool well, no problem.

post #86 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Unwaxed bases will turn gray and become fuzzy, reducing their slickness. They also will wear faster if not waxed, especially if skiing on man-made snow. The wax serves as a lubricant just like oil in the engine of your car.

My approach is to warm the base with the iron, warm the wax so I can crayon it on, spread the wax out evenly with the iron and then use a paper towel under the iron to wipe off excess. No scraping necessary. I usually rewax every 15-20 hours of skiing.

I showed this approach to someone in the locker room the other day on their SECOND ski after they'd drizzled/scraped the first ski. He said there was a noticeable difference in the slipperiness of the skis, with my approach performing better.

I tried your approach given your track record of useful information in other ski-related areas...and it works great. Thanks. I'll start using this at home after the fiberlene is used up.

 

Here is a seemingly bizarre idea lifted from another thread that I now use while skiing away from home: Melt the wax with a heat gun instead of ironing it in. Similar to your idea, soften the wax (I blow some hot air on it and the base), "crayon" the wax on the base, and melt it in using a heat gun. Temperature control is really easy...just pull the gun back if you think it is getting too hot or put it closer to melt the wax faster. This works great with hard waxes like the universal Hertel Racing 739 (it  lasts a really long time), which otherwise is a PITA to scrape off in a hotel room or condo. 

post #87 of 88

post #88 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stev View Post
 


Oh yea!  I love it!  Most important wax off!

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