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Question about a turn by Shiffrin - Page 4

post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 
Fore-aft doesn't become irrelevant just because your skis aren't loaded.  Here's Shiffrin, unloaded, during a transition near the top of the second run of her second Aspen race.  Check the video yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AZR9r52HAY) -- as a result of this, she had to recover, and was low and late around the next gate.   I believe she herself would say she made a mistake and got too far aft.  And if you want to argue she's OK here, I could of course find more extreme examples, using other racers, who are unloaded and even further in the back seat.

 

 

 

 

 

That frame is not representative of Heluva's statement and is much different than the frame shown earlier.

post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
 
Further, the movement some are discussing is a drill and not the finished movement pattern normally displayed by Shiffrin

 

What drill are you referencing?

post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

 

IMO, for all sports, I consider video as another breakthrough in technology. Shiffrin and her coaches probably go through breakdowns on her runs, iirc she has mentioned this in the past. ...

Yes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

... this is an important point -- the more momentum you have, the more aft you can be and still get away with it.    But again, as can be seen from the above photo, this is not without its limits.  And this is not merely an academic statement -- these limits (how far aft a racer can be) are regularly reached and exceeded in WC ski racing....

 And yes.  I'd extend the two points to note that small changes of a centimeter or two can make big differences in a range of motion sports, from skiing to tennis to mountain biking.  MTB crashes e.g. get markedly less violent, on average, with stems 50mm or less.  A couple cm in the backseat can actually do good things as well as bad things, and the same for momentum -- energy when controlled is good, and when you can't control it, more energy means things can get interesting, as Chemist notes by the picture he linked.  Video and related analytical tools are key for 1) knowing what one is actually doing, and 2) shaping the amount and timing of movements towards a desired result.  In this case, yes Shiffrin is aft, yes because of her extensive video review among other things and current incredible timing no it's not a fault, and yes there can be too much of a good thing.

post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Mikaela we know already to be not just an awesome tech skier but also a genius tactician, I remember she was advising a few other team mates on tactics.

 

 

 

What makes her a genius tactician,.... that she can see the lines which should be made or that she has the skills to make them?

post #95 of 113

Heluva is correct, except that there is one very good reason to refer to that position as being back: it is important to realize that doing a low cross-under transition close to the snow with unloaded skis will put CofM back, and that this is okay.  Otherwise, folks learning how to ski might get the impression they have to keep there CofM forward or at most neutral and have a very hard time trying to "stay out of the back seat" while doing cross-under transitions, instead of tying to do it as shown by Shiffren.

post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

What makes her a genius tactician,.... that she can see the lines which should be made or that she has the skills to make them?

One is nothing without the other so, obviously, the only answer is both.

You could ask which is more tactical, seeing the best line or skiing them well. In this case line would be considered more as tactics and skiing them well, more technique.
post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

What makes her a genius tactician,.... that she can see the lines which should be made or that she has the skills to make them?

One is nothing without the other so, obviously, the only answer is both.

You could ask which is more tactical, seeing the best line or skiing them well. In this case line would be considered more as tactics and skiing them well, more technique.


Well - that's can be a question. I think many racers rely on their coaches a lot, to help with tactical decisions at course inspection - my understanding is that she is doing the helping for others...

 

It is surprising how much variation there can be with course sets, if the terrain is used properly.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Heluva is correct, except that there is one very good reason to refer to that position as being back: it is important to realize that doing a low cross-under transition close to the snow with unloaded skis will put CofM back, and that this is okay.  Otherwise, folks learning how to ski might get the impression they have to keep there CofM forward or at most neutral and have a very hard time trying to "stay out of the back seat" while doing cross-under transitions, instead of tying to do it as shown by Shiffren.

 

Yes, annoyingly, Helluva is correct again, except... there's one very good reason he's... also... wrong? :confused

 

Anyways, at her level, I like to think of it not as much as having to keep/move the COM forward, which is... what is the word... dogma, but as tucking/bringing the boots under instead and if you look at it from that perspective, she's doing fine.


Edited by razie - 12/1/15 at 5:56pm
post #98 of 113
If she rolls off her LTE quickly on that little flat spot she's standing on, where will the pole mark be compared to the one in the snow already? Is it a slower type of recovery move or is she generating power here? Or, both! Go fast and take chances, but be perfect! Haha, alrighty. Bode made a living on recoveries. So, yes, its a mistake compared to her almost perfect balance, but her recovery technique was spot-on, with impeccable timing. ...my kind of mistake.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 12/1/15 at 9:46pm
post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post

And here we go with the personal attacks.   Ever notice how it's the first sign of someone who loses confidence in their ability to make an argument? How would you like it if someone, in arguing with you, got frustrated and said your user name indicates you're a somewhat insecure 20-something with a bit of growing up to do?  Let's not go there.  Let's keep it civil, and stick to the substance.  If you can't do that, you don't belong here. 

I'll add you've made completely erroneous assumptions about me and my motivations.  Don't you know any scientists? When they approach a problem, their default motivation is not to put on airs, it's to gain clarity (regardless of how that may appear to others).   Here, that starts with agreeing on terminology  (including what you dismiss as "semantics") and clearly describing the kinematics.  Once you have that in place, you've got a clear framework for discussing the underlying movements, which, as you correctly argue, are the important stuff.  I don't understand your opposition to this -- the former doesn't preclude the latter, it supports it.

Returning to the issue at hand....


Quote:

Fore-aft doesn't become irrelevant just because your skis aren't loaded.  Here's Shiffrin, unloaded, during a transition near the top of the second run of her second Aspen race.  Check the video yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AZR9r52HAY) -- as a result of this, she had to recover, and was low and late around the next gate.   I believe she herself would say she made a mistake and got too far aft.  And if you want to argue she's OK here, I could of course find more extreme examples, using other racers, who are unloaded and even further in the back seat.






First, just to be clear, as I've said from the start, I think Shiffrin is perfectly well-positioned in the OP's photo. She is aft (again, a necessary consequence of the flexion), but that's just where she's supposed to be. Second, I certainly agree with your comments here but, critically, it's only because she's not too far aft that she is able to own the movement and thus properly load the ski when it matters. And as can be seen from the above photo (and what happens afterwards), it is possible to be so far aft that you can't own the movement and properly load the ski at the optimum time, regardless of whether you're unweighted or not.

Agreed, and this is an important point -- the more momentum you have, the more aft you can be and still get away with it.    But again, as can be seen from the above photo, this is not without its limits.  And this is not merely an academic statement -- these limits (how far aft a racer can be) are regularly reached and exceeded in WC ski racing.

So in summary, here's how I would put it:   Being flexed at the transition is necessary, and objectively puts a skier's CM aft of his/her feet*.  However, a good skier, if they have proper movements, will still be perfectly balanced as they move through this aft position.  Further, at the WC level, there is so much momentum, and the skill level is so high, that the envelope for how far aft they can be is quite wide.  However, it is not without limit.  Even there, there is still an important difference between being aft, and too far aft.

[*Assuming, of course, normally stiff boots, etc.]

To me, the above is much clearer (and more correct) than asserting fore-aft in an unweighted transition on the WC "doesn't matter."  The latter, IMO, leaves open questions and creates confusion.
Holy cow! I'm embarrassed. I believed the hype without reason. Out of the blue I went back to take a look at this picture and I was guided from above to Heluva's comment...
Something about "IT matters when it matters". I wouldn't want to place a bet on whether that gate will stay in the ground or not. Put it that way.

See my response to the Swedish dude with the ripping U-14 daughter for conclusion.
post #100 of 113
 

 

Ted the Shred's explanation of the "early release" ... "I'm getting on the new ski before you even switch edges" :

 

Duh!  OMG!


Edited by Atomicman - 12/10/15 at 9:33pm
post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Duh!  OMG!

I knew I agreed with A-man for some reason, but I'm still learning to ski and coach, so I'm all over the place.

Swedish-dude, have your daughter go ski terrain...bumps, pow, crud, trees and rip the groomers along the way in between training. It's amazing how fun can motivate. Better yet, how you challenge balance is the name of the game.
Peace-out
(Btw - I don't read every post here. I look for what I think I need. I looked at both pics and read some comment above it that said it was a different representaion, thus, believing the hype. if you ski, you can usually look at a pic and ask "what would that feel like" and be close to your answer.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 12/10/15 at 9:31pm
post #102 of 113
Javelin turns wouldn't hurt either.
post #103 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post



.....I don't read every post here. I look for what I think I need. I looked at both pics and read some comment above it that said it was a different representaion, thus, believing the hype......

 

The vids from the subect matter herself and what she believe is helping her. 

 

 

 

 

And getting back to the OP

 

post #104 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
 

 

The vids from the subect matter herself and what she believe is helping her. 

 

 

 

 

And getting back to the OP

 

 

What is striking is that there's no secret what she's done to groove those movement patterns.  But, if one looks with ideological blinders, and devoted to ideas such as either 1) that a low-level drill is the ONE thing that matters, or 2) that lifting the ski routinely is a mistake, or 3) ideas that a few centimeters here and there at the top of more or less a triangle when referring to hips and center versus the key parts fore and aft of the ski aren't important (when those few centimeters multiply in length a good bit in terms of where they move your balance along the ski) --  well, it's then easy to not listen and see what e.g. Shiffrin and her early, excellent coaches (which great track records with numerous athletes) find important.

 

Looking at Get Over It, while even it (a higher-level drill) isn't the ONE thing by any means, I'll go so far to say that really grooving this drill will then reduce the need to be on the inside ski, with obvious speed advantages for a slalom type turn shape.  For recreational skiers, that doesn't really matter one bit, but for higher level intermediates it will make the outside ski feel more alive and skiing more fun.  So, a very good one to work on a bit on appropriate terrain.  

post #105 of 113
That is not Michaela.
post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

That is not Michaela.

 

Listen to the voiceover and watch the intro.  

post #107 of 113

In the intro it says: Demo by - Bridget Currier & Olivia Gerrard.....

post #108 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

In the intro it says: Demo by - Bridget Currier & Olivia Gerrard.....

So?  If Ms. Shiffrin wishes to disassociate herself from a drill on which she spent many hours, and that is featured in a video series done by her and her own coaches, that she does the voiceover for, she has now arrived at that point in life where I am sure she will have "her people" handle the matter.  Don't see that happening, myself.

 

For those here who are on a first-name basis with her, ask her about the drill.  Simple enough, right?

post #109 of 113

Regardless of who is in the Burke Mountain videos, we know it was her concentration on those and similar drills that brought her along so quickly: http://www.teamusa.org/News/2015/December/03/6-Reasons-Mikaela-Shiffrin-Is-So-Fast

post #110 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 

In the intro it says: Demo by - Bridget Currier & Olivia Gerrard.....

 

As mentioned, shiffrin does the voiceover. In some of the drills vid, she gives nuggets of information on how it has helped her ski the way she skis. 

 

 

edit.... another vid, no demos but MS's thought process on drills.

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 12/11/15 at 11:52am
post #111 of 113
Direct pressure along the length of the ski from outside foot to outside foot and with flexed ankles, while keeping contact with the snow and the bos between the forces and com as much as possible. Is that a run-on sentence? wink.gif
post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Does  Mikela just have  exceptional innate balancing ability or is it something she specifically does, ski technique,  which provides her with a better outcome and therefore less balancing risks?  YM

a snippet from here:  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/sports/mikaela-shiffrins-swift-if-unplanned-ascent-to-world-champion.html?_r=0

 

Mikaela recalled that they bought a unicycle because Eileen had read that it was good for balance, which she considered a pivotal athletic skill. The Shiffrin children also learned to juggle to improve their coordination.

“We then started going around our block, which was two miles long, riding the unicycle and juggling at the same time,” Mikaela said. “And if I was doing that, then Taylor would be behind me dribbling a soccer ball as he ran around the block.”

Eileen was confident it would pay off, even as she worried what people were saying about her children.

“You would see the neighbors coming out to watch the Shiffrins going around the block juggling on a unicycle,” Eileen said. “I’m sure they thought we were completely nuts.”

post #113 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

a snippet from here:  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/sports/mikaela-shiffrins-swift-if-unplanned-ascent-to-world-champion.html?_r=0

 

Mikaela recalled that they bought a unicycle because Eileen had read that it was good for balance, which she considered a pivotal athletic skill. The Shiffrin children also learned to juggle to improve their coordination.

“We then started going around our block, which was two miles long, riding the unicycle and juggling at the same time,” Mikaela said. “And if I was doing that, then Taylor would be behind me dribbling a soccer ball as he ran around the block.”

Eileen was confident it would pay off, even as she worried what people were saying about her children.

“You would see the neighbors coming out to watch the Shiffrins going around the block juggling on a unicycle,” Eileen said. “I’m sure they thought we were completely nuts.”

Stenmark was quite famous for his unicycles:

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