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Old dogs, new tricks: Bringing veteran skiers into the 21st century - Page 3

post #61 of 78

You can control your speed carving arc-2-arc turns, even on steep terrain; the choices within your control are very fast, faster and fastest.  If you want to go fastest you release your COM from the turn early so that it follows a closer path to the fall line, if you want to go fast you keep your CoM going around the turn longer so that it deviates from the fall line (you can even make it go a little up hill before letting centrfugal force take it into the next turn.  You can also vary how much you push your CoM down hill versus uphill and how much energy you use up "bruising" the snow.

 

Agree with "because on the places where the skidding happens, all you will find is ice", but that kinda avoids the point.  Sideways skiing at speed imho is not only more dangerous and provides less directional control, but it is harder to do well.


Edited by Ghost - 12/3/15 at 1:12pm
post #62 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

You can control your speed carving arc-2-arc turns, even on steep terrain; the choices within your control are very fast, faster and fastest.  If you want to go fastest you release your COM from the turn early so that it follows a closer path to the fall line, if you want to go fast you keep your CoM going around the turn longer so that it deviates from the fall line (you can even make it go a little up hill before letting centrfugal force take it into the next turn.  You can also vary how much you push your CoM down hill versus uphill and how much energy you use up "bruising" the snow.

 

Agree with "because on the places where the skidding happens, all you will find is ice", but that kinda avoids the point.  Sideways skiing at speed imho is not only more dangerous and provides less directional control, but it is harder to do well.

If your choices are limited to very fast, faster and fastest, I would not call that controlling your speed. Otherwise, I agree. What is the definition of steep terrain btw? Because if people think they are capable of controlling their speed on steep terrain, my definition of steep is probably very different. Try to carve something as steep as the Harakiri or Manni Pranger slope for example and tell me you can control your speed. Carving something like that is insane, let alone being able to control your speed. When you carve a slope like that, you are going to bounce like crazy, you will have little grip and it will be a miracle if you won't end up in a tree. 

Define at speed for me... If you are going to stivot in a downhill course doing 80 miles an hour, I would agree. But in gs skiing, stivoting is nothing special... 

post #63 of 78

You can also keep a good and low aerodynamic tuck while schussing (provided your legs are strong enough to last), or straighten up and spread out a bit to reduce speed :D

 

By control, I mean change or alter.  Control is limited; you cannot carve slowly on steep terrain, or for that matter on moderate (e.g. typical double black diamond inbounds) terrain.  If you want to ski slowly you will have to resort to braking, or brushed turns, or hop turns or bicycle turns, or some combination of the above, but not pure carved turns.

 

By steep I mean standing straight up vertical while being able to touch the snow surface at shoulder level by reaching out your hand.

post #64 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

You can also keep a good and low aerodynamic tuck while schussing (provided your legs are strong enough to last), or straighten up and spread out a bit to reduce speed :D

 

By control, I mean change or alter.  Control is limited; you cannot carve slowly on steep terrain, or for that matter on moderate (e.g. typical double black diamond inbounds) terrain.  If you want to ski slowly you will have to resort to braking, or brushed turns, or hop turns or bicycle turns, or some combination of the above, but not pure carved turns.

 

By steep I mean standing straight up vertical while being able to touch the snow surface at shoulder level by reaching out your hand.

Apart from you definition of control, I agree completely.

Your definition of steep is in an entirely different ball game than mine though. Being able to touch the snow surface at shoulder level by reaching out? Good luck finding a groomed slope that is going to fit your description of steep, you are not going to find one. Something that steep is madness.

post #65 of 78
mikaela-shiffrin-team-usa-pics-world-cup-09.jpg
I think you might be surprised what a winch cat can groom.
post #66 of 78
I have seen track vehicles desend over 72% grades unassisted. Anything steeper is winched down from a deadman.
post #67 of 78
How about this.
post #68 of 78

Anyone know the grade of Le Charlevoix ? It's the only triple black I know - unfortunately closed when I was there - apparently many get hurt on it in certain conditions.

 

http://www.lemassif.com/en/trail-map

 

Watching the Streif now - some pretty gnarly stuff there...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

I have seen track vehicles desend over 72% grades unassisted. Anything steeper is winched down from a deadman.

that's a little overdoing it, isn't it? They could winch it down from a tree or something?
post #69 of 78
That's heavy off road pipeline construction. Trees aren't reliable. Usually a D-10 dozer on the summit and another D-10 hooked up then winched down the track vehicle.
post #70 of 78

Careful taking the coffee break.

 

post #71 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


I think you might be surprised what a winch cat can groom.

I am not surprised even the slightest bit, the Manni Pranger (102% descent on some parts) and Harakiri (average descent of 78%) slope are known for being some of the steepest around.   A piste caterpillar needs a winch to get up those slopes. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

How about this.
 

That is the Manni Pranger slope I was referring to.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

Careful taking the coffee break.

 

This is the Harakiri slope I was referring to.

Good luck carving those two slopes all the way through. 

post #72 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Skiing View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


I think you might be surprised what a winch cat can groom.

I am not surprised even the slightest bit, the Manni Pranger (102% descent on some parts) and Harakiri (average descent of 78%) slope are known for being some of the steepest around.   A piste caterpillar needs a winch to get up those slopes. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

How about this.
 

That is the Manni Pranger slope I was referring to.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

Careful taking the coffee break.

 

This is the Harakiri slope I was referring to.

Good luck carving those two slopes all the way through. 


No, actually both are Harakiri.

post #73 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 


No, actually both are Harakiri.

No, you are incorrect. 

post #74 of 78
The first video says in the notes it is Manni Pranger.

Not that it matters.
post #75 of 78

History: Started skiing in VT when I was 2 (1959.) Taught /coached/pro raced through the late 70's- 80's. Walked away from the business 24 years ago.  2 runs in 2006 on my 215's and 5 runs on a modern GS ski in 2013.

 

Skiing for the 3rd. time in 24 years yesterday I was trying to figure out how to turn a modern GS ski (Fischer WC 185cm ). I found I needed a lower body position, less knee and a lot more hip angulation to get them working than the old school equipment required. Initiating by rolling on to the edge with less up-weighting seem to work. Very very tall and 235# I was use to working a ski middle to back and that's what these skies seemed to like.

 

Does that analysis make sense or am I still missing something?

post #76 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
 

Skiing for the 3rd. time in 24 years yesterday I was trying to figure out how to turn a modern GS ski (Fischer WC 185cm ). I found I needed a lower body position, less knee and a lot more hip angulation to get them working than the old school equipment required. Initiating by rolling on to the edge with less up-weighting seem to work. Very very tall and 235# I was use to working a ski middle to back and that's what these skies seemed to like.

 

Does that analysis make sense or am I still missing something?

Makes perfect sense. As a proficient racer and coach you were already skiing very efficiently. In GS by '91 racers were skiing 95% pure carve. A modern race ski just gives you a shorter radius for the same movement pattern. 

 

I'm a LOT smaller than you are and don't have the power to bend a stiff-tailed ski into a clean arc, so I choose a very round flex pattern. I'm probably on my arch more than you are, but even when I load the heel toward the end of the turn I still feel I'm working the full length of the edge loaded in effect through the middle. The "lower body position" is really the absence of up-unweighting or uncoiling in medium-radius and longer turns -- everything is done with lateral movements rather than vertical, de-emphasizing steering in favor of edging (roll replacing yaw most of the time). Most of this happens inside the boot -- rolling onto the new edge with the inside ski and then bringing the hip across quickly as the load comes onto the outside ski. The de-emphasis on knee angulation is a happy consequence of the fact that you can get the same carve radius with less total angulation and you can stand against the ski on a straighter knee -- that has certainly extended the life in my knees by a decade or more.

post #77 of 78

Seth, Thanks.

 

I still have a pretty steep learning curve. Up-unweighting is really hard wired in me and while that lateral move works it's not subconscious (yet to say the least!) Fooled with it all day at Stratton today and made some real progress. Spent the afternoon on some 165 cm SL skies and that was a REAL eye opener as to stance and early edging. Amazing how unstable the front of the ski is when it's not edged enough as you enter the turn.

post #78 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASparks View Post
 

Seth, Thanks.

 

I still have a pretty steep learning curve. Up-unweighting is really hard wired in me and while that lateral move works it's not subconscious (yet to say the least!) Fooled with it all day at Stratton today and made some real progress. Spent the afternoon on some 165 cm SL skies and that was a REAL eye opener as to stance and early edging. Amazing how unstable the front of the ski is when it's not edged enough as you enter the turn.


Really no different that what you did on the straights.  Best comment I can make the things you taught not to do on straights are now part of the skill set and actually work with the shapes. ;)

 

As tp the SL's and GS skis, both teach you something.  Ski the SL as slow as possible on a shallow slope, you will find that you quickly understand what really works and does not, along with the mechanism for GS.  In this case the SL shape does have a wonderful value for what it teaches.

 

Cheers and enjoy as once you adapt its like your 20 again, just smarter.

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