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idle thought

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

My skis can turn my feet and legs faster than my feet and legs can turn my skis,

 

fom

post #2 of 21

What do you mean by "faster?"

Are those skis rockered?

Are you talking about on hard icy snow, or deep powder?

What do you mean by "turn?"

post #3 of 21
Do you wear a helmet?
post #4 of 21
Huh? My skis really don't do much unless my legs make them.
post #5 of 21

PSIMAN would disagree.
post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

My skis can turn my feet and legs faster than my feet and legs can turn my skis,

 

fom

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

What do you mean by "faster?"

Are those skis rockered?

Are you talking about on hard icy snow, or deep powder?

What do you mean by "turn?"


There you go.  Get yourself some wide rockered ski for those icy groomers, slow down some, and you'll soon be able to turn your skis faster.  ;)

post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


PSIMAN would disagree.


psiman was not taught either steering or pivoting and does great using just physics... he does just what Warren W said to do back in 1972: put the skis on edge and stand on them and they will turn!

 

:p 

post #8 of 21

He does great ... until he doesn't.

post #9 of 21

Yes but that's not a failure of physics - it's a failure of poor design.

 

Fortunately we appear to be either intelligently designed or evolved, so we should do better

 

:rolleyes 

 

I have to say the little guy is awesome though - whoever had the idea (Bob): kudos. He is carving on the inside ski, using the outside ski to counterbalance, demonstrating several great skiing principles at once:

 

Basics:

- tip the skis on edge and stand on them and they will turn

- pivoting is not needed even for tin man

- counterbalancing keeps you... well... up

- humans have hips so they can carve the outside ski instead

- the only two basic skills needed for skiing are none. Two movements however are required: tipping and counterbalancing (or just angulation if you want to be more like psiaman, i.e. ski with the upper body).

- the problems of edging with the upper body is being harder to control the movements of big mass, lacking fine control and getting out of balance more easily, as you can see tin-man often reaching the limits, not stopping the lateral movement in time and even lifting the outside ski often

 

 

Advanced:

- don't look where you want to go

- stick to the groomed

- it's better to have a handler: someone to carry you up back on the slope

- it's hip to be square


Edited by razie - 11/20/15 at 6:04am
post #10 of 21

Yes, PSI-man is a fantastic example of tipping to get the shaped skis to create a turn, with balance maintained by a lifted inside half (he's not banking) and some fore-aft movement of the mass of his shield.  His skis don't even bend!

 

How does he do it?  Someone pushes him off.  Gravity pulls him downhill, and the uneven snow makes him wobble.  The shaped skis, when wobbled up onto their edges, create turns with their curved shape as he descends.  He doesn't fall over because his inside hip/shoulder goes up, and gravity and momentum make his shield hinge fore-aft.  These together keep his COM where it needs to be -- until it doesn't.  He is very well engineered to make this work.  But he does fall over when the snow catches an edge or demands a greater range of motion or different timing in order to maintain his balance.  HE actually doesn't do anything but get moved by the forces directed at him once his is pushed off.  There's a lesson in that.  

 

He is also a great example of the limits of a one-turn-wonder (needs versatility).


Edited by LiquidFeet - 11/20/15 at 7:26am
post #11 of 21

How do you figure psiaman is not banking or that is inside half comes up?  I don't see that at all, its just that he has a inside half that doesn't collapse, which means weight goes to the inside, just as Razie described.   PSIAman is a hip dumped park and ride skier.  Lots of weird stuff going on there.  Its a nifty little device though.

post #12 of 21

Ok - psiaman MA it is.

 

To me eye, it is banking into the turn, tipping the skis on edge, in the process. As maximum banking for the speed is reached, due to either or both of the rest of the body and centrifugal force, weight is dumped on the edged inside ski which starts to turn at some sort of sidecut and he counterbalances over this inside ski, by leveraging the outside ski, often lifting the outside ski - especially as his "hips" drag it over (I'm not going to say he is demonstrating also how inside leg tipping works, but he may well be). This is counterbalancing without angulation, through a set of joints and levers (hips) and counterweights (outside skis).

 

Luckily, as it turns the skis across the direction of travel, gravity ads to centrifugal force and starts to pull its body over the skis and down the hill. Doing a weird kind of a reversed white pass on the inside ski (which he was turning on) and as the body crosses the skis, he starts to turn the other way and banking into the new turn.

 

And on and on, like the mindless little pendulum that it is, without a lot of DIRT to react to imbalances, speed or terrain, which would keep it up.

 

LF - I don't think it's as much that his inside hip comes up as his outside hip lowers due to geometry...? Or the inside hip is prevented from dumping due to its squareness and lack of knees and ankles?

BTS - he's not park and riding, what are you talking about - that's quite dynamic skiing, with a lot of lateral forces (for his size)... maybe in the GS turns, yes...

 

Question: is the reversed white pass a black pass?


Edited by razie - 11/20/15 at 9:38am
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

My skis can turn my feet and legs faster than my feet and legs can turn my skis,

 

fom

 

Are you just philosophically strategizing about letting your boots and skis do the bulk of the "rebound" work and only use the feet and legs for stance, balance and fine input?

 

Isn't such an over-reliance on high performing ski equipment like this just an excuse to be lazy? That's a completely crazy idea! Why don't you just go buy a snowmobile?

 

As soon as you are done with idle thoughts and are ready for idle hands, let me know.

post #14 of 21
I think I know what you mean, FOM. The helmet comment above confirms that most folks would never fathom "allowing" their skis to turn their legs - fear, lack of balance, and underutilization of the muscles needed to keep control with functional tension are some of tge root causes.
I believe this is part of the debate here over passive vs. active leg rotation and perhaps other topics such as self-sterring skis.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

...The helmet comment above confirms that most folks would never fathom "allowing" their skis to turn their legs...

That wasnt intended to be personal, and one comment treally doesnt confirm squat. Correcting myself, but hopefully you get the idea.
post #16 of 21
...it's awfully quiet in here...
Yes, I'm new, but have been reading the board for sometime.
Don't be shy, I can take the heat or I wouldn't have signed up. wink.gif
post #17 of 21
If you're not on the sweet spot, you're not on the sweet spot.

Psia man only skis in two planes and should have the nickname "ATM" or "pay-pal"...virtual banker. (see the last two seconds of vid).
post #18 of 21
Quote:
 If you're not on the sweet spot, you're not on the sweet spot.

Where is the sweet spot?  Does it move?

post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

...it's awfully quiet in here...
Yes, I'm new, but have been reading the board for sometime.
Don't be shy, I can take the heat or I wouldn't have signed up. wink.gif

My skis turn when I don't want them to. Should I fire you?
post #20 of 21
In my opinion, no, the sweet spot doesnt change. We are balanced on it, or not. Each ski can have a different feel or size of sweet spot, but that is there for us to find and maintain(assuming properly tuned skis). Once you find it, do everything in your power to stay there.
post #21 of 21
First off, straightlining is not permitted and ill have to pull your pass.

Secondly. Not letting your skis turn is the opposite of what I'm talking about. Think of the tension you may feel from not allowing your skis to turn vs. allowing them to turn. Both require tension to remain in balance for sure.
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