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Challenge: Create a Three Sentence Statement of Technical Intent - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Makes sense, what about balance skill? It would intersect with all the other skills I suppose.

 

Last year it was decided that balance isn't a skill.  Balance is now recognized as an outcome of the blending of the three remaining skills.

post #32 of 46

Oh yeah!! Viiiindiiicated !!!! - I always thought this was the result of a blend of pressure and rotations:

 

 

and some edging, sure... of the inside ski, wow! Balance and... this whole outside ski business are totally useless, as I keep telling you!

 

:rotflmao:

:beercheer: 


Edited by razie - 11/24/15 at 4:13pm
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

Last year it was decided that balance isn't a skill.  Balance is now recognized as an outcome of the blending of the three remaining skills.

How could traditional ski instruction have been so wrong for so long?    YM

post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Wanna hear something interesting LF? I recently read the current manual for USSA L100. Ron Kipp was heavily involved, as he is also with PSIA education development. In that manual they made a big point about wanting to do away with the turn phase concept altogether. I didn't agree with what I was reading. But that seems to be a general mindset creeping in: that thinking in terms of turn phase is somehow too confining and antiquated.

I guess it doesn't change much except maybe how some folks want to talk about ski turns.   I don't think it's going to affect me to awfully much, thank goodness.  YM

post #35 of 46

Hey: Yer messin' with the Tao when you re-write my haiku...not to mention my language.

But then I flipped thru the 800 post mess in the Wedge Turn topic... You guys are a mess.  

### # ##### ####

post #36 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

from page 33 of current L100 manual:

 

 

They aren't doing away with phases completely...they go on to say this on page 34:

 

 

I personally think its a mistake to eliminate the 3rd phase because releasing is a very important activity which occurs during that phase.  As he rightly points out, a lot of movements are happening during the release phase which are early actions towards initiation...so "finishiation" is not that outlandish of an idea, but still there is a purpose to releasing and a purpose to initiating...even if the two phases overlap quite a lot, if not entirely sometimes.

 

In short, I think they are trying to fix something that aint broke.  There are in fact three phases...init, turn, release.  They may overlap.  I do not agree with some of the way they are trying to frame things now.

 

I do like the identification of the middle phase though... he points out that there are specific actions that might happen during initiation, including pivoting entries, etc...but a ski racer will be in the middle phase when they have set the ski into carving mode, according to him.  So you could think of the initiation phase where the racer sets up the line, then the turning phase is where they ride the ski, developing increasing edge angles could be part of that, and so on, but that is the carving phase so to speak, and in his view...that's all there is until the next initiation phase.  I personally feel that model is woefully overlooking releasing activities in the 3rd phase.

I've also seen four phase models that include transition, initiation, turning, completion. So I guess it's a matter of how detailed on the one hand or simplistic on the other when one wants to break down the turn cycle. Taking the simplistic tack, occasionally when teaching or clinicing I'll say something such as, "The skis have two jobs: hold on and let go." With the holding on bit we work on crossing the hill body positions with an athletic stance, inside half lead, weight on the downhill ski and shoulders counter tipped over the outside ski. The let go part involves extending a bit at the knees, flattening the skis, skis seeking the fall line, and the CM moving forward. The point of this approach is to get the clients and/or athletes to make a clear distinction between edging and pressure from the fall line to the completion of the turn, and ensuring that the skis roll off their edges to flat so leg steering/turning is facilitated. It's a bit simplistic, but I like to first see that the skier can get off the edges cleanly and initially redirect the skis with minimal effort. Once they feel how steerable/turnable the skis can be with flat skis at the top of the turn with hips recentered over the feet and controlled leg steering, then I add the salsa with a more aggressive movement of the CM across the skis and resultant earlier edge angles.at initiation. With higher level skiers what I often see is that they are all about pressure and edging. Skis are always on one set of edges or the other. What gets demoted as a skill in their repertoire  is the ability to precisely guide the skis using rotary skills or using femoral rotation because they don't really know how to turn with their legs 

post #37 of 46

1) The fundamental theorem of skiing (from Warren Witherell): Put a ski on edge, pressure it correctly, and it will take you where you want to go.

 

2) Optimal skiing consists of four (or whatever our number is) factors/skill areas necessary to meet the fundamental theorem of skiing.

 

3) If any skier isn't the best in the world it is because he/she is lacking in one or more of the skills areas or isn't strong enough to perform the skill(s) optimally in every conceivable condition.

post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgert View Post
 

...and shoulders counter tipped over the outside ski.

Thumbs Up ​I like that.

 

Four basic movements of skiing are tipping and turning the skis one way while tipping and turning the upper body the other way.

 

Actually only 3 are required, given WW's fundamental theorem of skiing: 1,3 and 4

post #39 of 46

To everything turn, turn, turn.

 

So when (in what phase) are we turning the skis and when are the skis turning us.  That is the question. 

 

I would submit that the answer is dependent on skill level. 

post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

To everything turn, turn, turn.

 

So when (in what phase) are we turning the skis and when are the skis turning us.  That is the question. 

 

I would submit that the answer is dependent on skill level. 


I would have to agree. If someone skis a slope beyond one's level, then one's bound to turn the skis rather than patiently wait for the skis to turn :) of course we all do it when needed. Glades and trees come to mind... at least for me... some would argue however that there is such a thing as a "brushed carve" for steep terrain and they would also be right. As we know, there are several ways to 'overseer' a ski and only one of those involves twisting it...  ahem... turning it

 

As to "when the skis are turning us" well... they shouldn't really. They turn themselves and we allow that our lower body follow that, but good separation stands between a turning ski and a "still" upper body - at least of course in an idealized image of a good skier.

post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


I would have to agree. If someone skis a slope beyond one's level, then one's bound to turn the skis rather than patiently wait for the skis to turn :) of course we all do it when needed. Glades and trees come to mind... at least for me... some would argue however that there is such a thing as a "brushed carve" for steep terrain and they would also be right. As we know, there are several ways to 'overseer' a ski and only one of those involves twisting it...  ahem... turning it

 

As to "when the skis are turning us" well... they shouldn't really. They turn themselves and we allow that our lower body follow that, but good separation stands between a turning ski and a "still" upper body - at least of course in an idealized image of a good skier.

Couldn't agree with you more.    When I say the skis are turning us I mean "turning" in the circular travel context.... which of course is accomplished by what you wrote. 

 

Also, in my original post, I should have wrote "Skill Level and Velocity" which is a main culprit in the point you make in your first sentence. 

post #42 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Thumbs Up ​I like that.

 

Four basic movements of skiing are tipping and turning the skis one way while tipping and turning the upper body the other way.

 

Actually only 3 are required, given WW's fundamental theorem of skiing: 1,3 and 4

Lara Gut countertipping at 2015 Aspen Winternationals.

post #43 of 46

good, pretty good, but I got this - check this out:

 

 

and moi, just to prove that I'm on the same page with Bode:

 

 

(the vertical deceptively makes it look more impressive, I found)

 

:beercheer: 

 

p.s. although on second thought, Lara's is perhaps more impressive than Bode's ...

post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

Last year it was decided that balance isn't a skill.  Balance is now recognized as an outcome of the blending of the three remaining skills.
I always thought balance was a prerequisite.
post #45 of 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

Last year it was decided that balance isn't a skill.  Balance is now recognized as an outcome of the blending of the three remaining skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post


I always thought balance was a prerequisite.

Its just the "New Think" and I don't really have a problem with it because as one advances and begins dealing with velocity and aligning to forces other than gravity is makes a lot of sense. 

 

At the beginner level however, there is a valid argument to see it the other way.

 

For instance,  If I asked a beginner to do a straight run and lift one ski then the other many would consider that exercise as teaching balance. 

 

However the "New Think"  folks might say you are "blending" zero edge, zero rotation and alignment to respond to the pressure (under foot) from the pull of gravity. 

 

At the beginner level IMO this approach becomes problematic. 

post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

Its just the "New Think" and I don't really have a problem with it because as one advances and begins dealing with velocity and aligning to forces other than gravity is makes a lot of sense. 

 

At the beginner level however, there is a valid argument to see it the other way.

 

For instance,  If I asked a beginner to do a straight run and lift one ski then the other many would consider that exercise as teaching balance. 

 

However the "New Think"  folks might say you are "blending" zero edge, zero rotation and alignment to respond to the pressure (under foot) from the pull of gravity. 

 

At the beginner level IMO this approach becomes problematic. 

 

There is an important learning based distinction made between designating balance as a separate skill and, designating it as a result of learning the other three skills. It is that learning the former is dependent on one's ability to improve balance separately and learning the later is dependent on your ability to learn the other three skills. Under the new regime, perform the three skills correctly, you should have balance "in the bag". A nice thought for those who are athletically challenged.

 

Balance is an important enough factor to cross train strength balance skill drills with technical balance skill drills that utilize full and different mixes with the other three technical skills. The former is typically done more in the off season gym and the later more during the season on skis for obvious reasons. 

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