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Titanium in Atomic Skis - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

Sorry for the tectonic thread drift, but can any of you metallurgists/chemists/engineers tell me what advantage BASALT might have in ski construction?

 

I'm an on-hill rep for Rossignol and I know that a number of their ski models in the last couple of years have featured basalt in the recipe.  My vague understanding is that the basalt is chopped up into fibers and then mixed somehow with the rest of the goop that makes up the innards of a ski.  

 

I'm just not exactly sure what characteristics basalt might have that make it good to have in a ski?

 

With the heart of a high-performance carving machine and effortless freeride feel, the EXPERIENCE 88 is the all-mountain benchmark for expert skiers. Now featuring revolutionary Air Tip technology; our most versatile blend of rocker and camber; and a powerful basalt-enhanced sandwich construction, the Experience 88 offers award-winning all-mountain versatility across all terrain and snow conditions. Auto Turn Rocker blends powerful edge grip with effortless maneuverability and speed control while patented Air Tip technology enhances floatation and control even further, keeping tips afloat through variable snow and providing smooth turn initiation on hardpack and groomers. It's racing DNA meets freeride. Precision and power meets effortless float. It's everything you need for the ultimate one-ski-quiver. The entire mountain awaits – EXPERIENCE MORE. - See more at: http://www.rossignol.com/US/US/experience-88-basalt-open--2015--RADED02--product--alpine-men-skis.html#close

 

Some info from Dynastar, which apparently also uses basalt in some skis. 

 

"Basalt fibre has many properties but it is used in skis for 3 main reasons: - Absorption of vibrations, - Biological stability, - Aesthetic appearance. Basalt fibre improves stability, for gentler ski-snow contact and a «quieter» ski. This is why it's often used for racing skis, especially for the speed disciplines. You'll find it in the DYNASTAR Race Expert range of skis."

 

Here's something on Fischer, which apparently used basalt in some cross country skis:

http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/fischer-launches-the-first-nordic-skis-with-a-natural-basalt-core/

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

 

 

I'm just not exactly sure what characteristics basalt might have that make it good to have in a ski?

 

 

There's two types of fiberglass - the standard is E -glass and the strong one is S-glass.     S-glass is about 10x more expensive than E-glass.      

Basalt is directly comparable in almost all material properties to S-glass.    At almost E-glass prices. 

post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

There is plenty of titanium in your skis.
All the resin used in topsheet construction and sidewalls is filled with titanium dioxide (white pigment),
Ground up rock is just another filler but the filler is important to adhesion.
My Kastle RX's have more titanium...because they are white.

Or it could be zinc based... Or lead. smile.gif Probably not the latter.
post #34 of 51
Basalt is an advanced ceramic product (at least as marketed to me). The biggest advantage of these ceramics is fantastic heat tolerance. Not particularly useful in waterskis - or snow skis. The sales people are just smiling at me and recommending ceramics only for marketing reasons. The ceramic cloth I looked at was a lot more expensive than carbon or glass. No basalt in my skis.

@mtcyclist Boron fibers generate nasty splinters. I'm not sure what happened with fly rods but the splinters ended the acceptance for ski poles (according to Dave Goode).

Eric
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

Sorry for the tectonic thread drift, but can any of you metallurgists/chemists/engineers tell me what advantage BASALT might have in ski construction?

 

I'm an on-hill rep for Rossignol and I know that a number of their ski models in the last couple of years have featured basalt in the recipe.  My vague understanding is that the basalt is chopped up into fibers and then mixed somehow with the rest of the goop that makes up the innards of a ski.  

 

I'm just not exactly sure what characteristics basalt might have that make it good to have in a ski?

 

With the heart of a high-performance carving machine and effortless freeride feel, the EXPERIENCE 88 is the all-mountain benchmark for expert skiers. Now featuring revolutionary Air Tip technology; our most versatile blend of rocker and camber; and a powerful basalt-enhanced sandwich construction, the Experience 88 offers award-winning all-mountain versatility across all terrain and snow conditions. Auto Turn Rocker blends powerful edge grip with effortless maneuverability and speed control while patented Air Tip technology enhances floatation and control even further, keeping tips afloat through variable snow and providing smooth turn initiation on hardpack and groomers. It's racing DNA meets freeride. Precision and power meets effortless float. It's everything you need for the ultimate one-ski-quiver. The entire mountain awaits – EXPERIENCE MORE. - See more at: http://www.rossignol.com/US/US/experience-88-basalt-open--2015--RADED02--product--alpine-men-skis.html#close

 

My understanding of it based on my experience working with composites is that the basalt is crushed, heated, and extruded into a fiber which is then made into a cloth like fiberglass or carbon/graphite.  You could also thicken the epoxy resin with ground up basalt, but I don't think that is what Rossignol is doing.  In my garage I have fiberglass cloth, carbon fiber cloth, kevlar cloth, and I think a small amount of kevlar/carbon interweaved cloth.  I also have thickening agents for the epoxy.  I have fumed silica which I also use as a fly desicant for fly fishing.  I have micro ballons, powdered graphite, powdered aluminum, adhesive microfibers, and a special filiting blend.  I have also used wood dust, flour, and corn starch to thicken resin.  

post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

My understanding of it based on my experience working with composites is that the basalt is crushed, heated, and extruded into a fiber which is then made into a cloth like fiberglass or carbon/graphite.  You could also thicken the epoxy resin with ground up basalt, but I don't think that is what Rossignol is doing.  In my garage I have fiberglass cloth, carbon fiber cloth, kevlar cloth, and I think a small amount of kevlar/carbon interweaved cloth.  I also have thickening agents for the epoxy.  I have fumed silica which I also use as a fly desicant for fly fishing.  I have micro ballons, powdered graphite, powdered aluminum, adhesive microfibers, and a special filiting blend.  I have also used wood dust, flour, and corn starch to thicken resin.  


Here at Joe's Garage we prefer flax fiber laid up with bull semen.

post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbqu View Post

Presumably, the reason for claiming that Titanium is used is to suggest that some fairly exotic and expensive material was used in the construction of the ski and therefore results in superior performance. Somehow, I suspect the Atomic Nomad Crimson Alu or the Volkl RTM 86 - "Powered by Aluminium" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Well, Elan uses Alu in its ski names (Spectrum 115 Alu) as well as Ti (Amphibio Waveflex 88 XTi). I assume the first truly is aluminum, but what about the latter? I assumed its just titanal, but curious because I just bought a pair. Perhaps a more normal aluminum alloy is better for powder skis than titanal for race and all-mountain skis?

https://www.levelninesports.com/elan-2015-spectrum-115-alu-skis

https://www.levelninesports.com/elan-amphibio-waveflex-88-xti-skis
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

My understanding of it based on my experience working with composites is that the basalt is crushed, heated, and extruded into a fiber which is then made into a cloth like fiberglass or carbon/graphite.  You could also thicken the epoxy resin with ground up basalt, but I don't think that is what Rossignol is doing.  In my garage I have fiberglass cloth, carbon fiber cloth, kevlar cloth, and I think a small amount of kevlar/carbon interweaved cloth.  I also have thickening agents for the epoxy.  I have fumed silica which I also use as a fly desicant for fly fishing.  I have micro ballons, powdered graphite, powdered aluminum, adhesive microfibers, and a special filiting blend.  I have also used wood dust, flour, and corn starch to thicken resin.  

 What do you build?

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

 

If you wanted to manufacture skis using a very expensive, high-performance metal, I'd suggest beryllium (no idea whether it would be beneficial to ski performance, but it would be fun to try....).

 

Beryllium is quite poisonous.  While the skier wouldn't be exposed to a sheet of Be buried in the ski, the ski manufacturers would have a hard time protecting their workers.

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post
 

 

Beryllium is quite poisonous.  While the skier wouldn't be exposed to a sheet of Be buried in the ski, the ski manufacturers would have a hard time protecting their workers.


I was being a bit facetious about using beryllium.  I'm familiar with berylliosis.  But, to be (no pun intended!) more serious, the overwhelming concern (as I'm sure you know as well) is inhalation, which comes from beryllium dust or vapor created during fabrication/machining, which could be addressed by buying only pre-cut pieces from a beryllium fabricator (like Brush-Wellman).  There was, however, a 2006 study whose results suggested that handling beryllium may provide a secondary route of toxic exposure. 

 

Brush-Wellman makes an Al-Be alloy called AlBeMet, which was used to manufacture a lightweight bicycle frame in the 90's. [I worked with Brush-Wellman on another beryllium application.] Its MSDS is here: http://materion.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/Corporate/MSDS/M13AlBeMet.pdf

I wonder if they're not sufficiently accounting for a dermal exposure route.

post #41 of 51

The MSDS was an interesting read. How toxic is the stuff really? Is this a CYA written by lawyers or a real health threat? Perhaps relating it to the common cigarette (or joint) health risks would be relevant. I fly private planes, ride motorcycles and ride bicycles on the street - all dangerous activities. Will the beryllium kill me or will a lightning bolt get me first?

 

More to the point, will it work well as a material in my skis?

 

Eric

post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

My understanding of it based on my experience working with composites is that the basalt is crushed, heated, and extruded into a fiber which is then made into a cloth like fiberglass or carbon/graphite.  You could also thicken the epoxy resin with ground up basalt, but I don't think that is what Rossignol is doing.  In my garage I have fiberglass cloth, carbon fiber cloth, kevlar cloth, and I think a small amount of kevlar/carbon interweaved cloth.  I also have thickening agents for the epoxy.  I have fumed silica which I also use as a fly desicant for fly fishing.  I have micro ballons, powdered graphite, powdered aluminum, adhesive microfibers, and a special filiting blend.  I have also used wood dust, flour, and corn starch to thicken resin.  

 

 

Damn!  You win  :D 

post #43 of 51
Titanal is an aluminum sheet. It is a brand name.

If you want to scare yourself, read the WHMIS Or MSDS for aluminum or even better yet water.
post #44 of 51
How about rock for your core? Zai skis!
post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

The MSDS was an interesting read. How toxic is the stuff really? Is this a CYA written by lawyers or a real health threat? Perhaps relating it to the common cigarette (or joint) health risks would be relevant. I fly private planes, ride motorcycles and ride bicycles on the street - all dangerous activities. Will the beryllium kill me or will a lightning bolt get me first?

 

More to the point, will it work well as a material in my skis?

 

Eric

 

You probably slap some beryllium against your upper lip every day.  It's in several aluminum alloys used in beverage cans, and aids in the shear properties that let you open the can in the first place.  It's added in the alloying process while making magnesium, which then goes into the aluminum alloy.  We added it to the melt as a ingot of 95% Al / 5% Be.

 

The safety precautions at the Brush-Wellman plant near Delta, Utah are quite extensive.  You don't go home with any article of clothing you worked in the plant with.

post #46 of 51

 Quote:

Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post
 

 

You probably slap some beryllium against your upper lip every day.  It's in several aluminum alloys used in beverage cans, and aids in the shear properties that let you open the can in the first place.  It's added in the alloying process while making magnesium, which then goes into the aluminum alloy.  We added it to the melt as a ingot of 95% Al / 5% Be.

 

The safety precautions at the Brush-Wellman plant near Delta, Utah are quite extensive.  You don't go home with any article of clothing you worked in the plant with.

 

 

The major can alloys 3004, 3104 or 5182 don't have any Be.

post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

The MSDS was an interesting read. How toxic is the stuff really? 

I'm afraid what I wrote is pretty much all I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post
 

 I fly private planes, ride motorcycles and ride bicycles on the street - all dangerous activities. Will the beryllium kill me or will a lightning bolt get me first?

 

Two very different types of hazards -- disease vs. trauma :).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post

 

More to the point, will it work well as a material in my skis?

I can't answer this.  As a start,  I suppose you'd need to look into the properties that make titanal both suitable (e.g., sufficient elasticity) and beneficial (e.g., damping) for skis, and see if beryllium offers those.  What I can say is that, if you can substitute beryllium for titanal, it will be substantially lighter.  But it is enormously expensive, and thus likely would only make sense if you wanted to make a single custom pair for yourself.  If you really want to experiment with alternatives to titanal, I might try titanium first (unless you've already done that).


Edited by chemist - 11/27/15 at 10:56pm
post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

If you want to scare yourself, read the WHMIS Or MSDS for aluminum or even better yet water.

Eh?

 

Here's the MSDS for water:  http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp26/water.pdf

It says, as expected, that  there's no hazard associated with it:

 

Potential Health Effects
Eye:  Non­irritating to the eyes.
Skin: Non­irritating to the skin. 

Inhalation: No hazard expected in normal industrial use.

Ingestion: No hazard expected in normal industrial use.

Chronic: None

 

And for aluminum:  http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922844  

It says that, except for a slight hazard from dermal irritation, the only hazard is from breathing aluminum fumes or dust (obviously a bad idea with any metal, yet still not in the same league as breathing beryllium), or from excessive internal exposure (either through over-consumption of aluminum-containing antacids, or from the use of old aluminum-based kidney dialysate).

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

Eh?

 

Here's the MSDS for water:  http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp26/water.pdf

It says, as expected, that  there's no hazard associated with it:

 

Yeah, there was a joke msds for water that went around... and there are a bunch of fake MSDS's around for water talking about how it's killed tons of people, it's a byproduct of nuclear plants, it's contained in car exhaust, etc. 

 

There's also this site : http://www.dhmo.org/

post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

Yeah, there was a joke msds for water that went around... and there are a bunch of fake MSDS's around for water talking about how it's killed tons of people, it's a byproduct of nuclear plants, it's contained in car exhaust, etc. 

 

There's also this site : http://www.dhmo.org/

I'm familiar with the DHMO prank; I'm guessing that's not what oldschoolskier was referring to, since he also mentioned aluminum, and since the prank DHMO MSD's are, of course, titled "DHMO", not "water."

post #51 of 51

Funny I guessed he was joking, having seen numerous water MSDS sheets.  I haven't seen an Al joke MSDS, but figured there probably was one.

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