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Discussion on counter balancing, angulation, inclination, active vs. passive weight shifts - Page 7

post #181 of 207

Most of us share the same frustration as you do about Epicski Bud..  It goes both ways.

 

You do seem to have some emotionally charged feelings towards certain members, perhaps me...or perhaps its to the messiah you keep mentioning, I'm not sure.  Things would go a lot smoother if you stuck to the topics instead of focusing on hating people that disagree with you.

 

Movements that contribute to balance absolutely can and should be taught as technique.  Some movements will contribute to balance in skiing, some movements and techniques will compromise balance.  So while you can't teach someone how to "feel" balance, you can most definitely teach them techniques that will contribute to balance rather then techniques which compromise balance, and you can coach them to find balance, develop balance skill...by providing them experiences which enables them to discover those feelings.

 

Skiing well, in balance, does require good balance focused technique, and that can and should be taught.

post #182 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 


Whoa Whoa! YM, I have no negativity toward you, in fact I am impressed with your astute thinking and only fear you are being influenced by some others here who seem to believe they have it all figured out and are unreceptive to any thinking outside of theirs.  Nothing I have said above was directed at you personally!

 

We can teach technique and obviously there are multiple techniques available, however, techniques do not teach balance. I personally do not believe we can teach balance!  We can talk about how to stand on our skis all day long to help the skier be in a better position to balance but that is not the act of balancing.  

 

At this point I don't expect to change anyones mind so I will leave it go.  Listen to whoever you like, I don't care but you may want to consider the sources and how much of their lives they have devoted to ski teaching and studied skiing.   The really good people who used to post here do not any longer because of constant attacks from people who frankly don't know what they don't know.  Go back in time here and look at posts by guys like Bob Barnes, Arcmeister, skidude, and many more who tried diligently to help skiers here only to become frustrated and leave or post far less.  We used to have productive educated discussions that drew people into the conversation instead of this, my way is the only way and your way sucks, shit.  It's too bad because this used to be a great resource for inquisitive minds.

Well, first of all I have been in and out of skiing for 55 years.  Rest assured that I think for myself.   I have friends that do and have coached the highest levels in racing and I spend time every year skiing with those folks and listen to those folks when they discuss modern race technique and listen to their coaching strategies.   I have said at least a couple times in this website,  to choose your coaches wisely.  I have also stated that half of what you learn in medical school is wrong, the problem is you don't know which half.    I think the same applies to ski instruction.    I have  also been in a position to compare what ski instruction's   latest  trends in thinking have been esp. over the past 25 years.      And I believe they have made a couple bad turns.  (excuse the pun).    The biggest value I think I have received from posting on this website is that I have had to think in an attempt to clarify my on thoughts in order to post.      I don't think I have actually been swayed left or right by any particular posting that I have read.   I also observe that opinions on both sides of the recent arguments are equally entrenched, right or wrong.    I have also observed poor understanding at all levels of teaching and coaching.   I have also tried to criticize thinking and understanding without  attacking individuals or organizations.     "If you wish to see the truth, then hold no opinions for or against anything"  3rd Patriarch of Zen       YM  

post #183 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

So this thread has taught me all there is to skiing is "HI-C" "counter balancing" and "brushing", if you can memorize these three terms and recite the Messiah's definition of them, you will be the most awesomest skier on the hill.  

 

Let's start a new thread on something we can disagree on shall we?  This is getting redundant.


I didn't read the last few pages in order - I'm reading this backwards... so I don't know if this is as relevant as I think it is, but let me summarize it this way:

 

I agree that we can't teach balance. It's a skill, not a technique. We can develop it, of course.

 

However, a part of balance is teaching the proper efficient movements that contribute to balance. Like opening the arms when walking a rope: let's take lateral: angulation is simply too generic: it does not mean much in itself - you must know the semantics behind it. While if you split it into: a) tipping the skis on edge and b) counterbalancing to stay upright while you're tipping the skis on edge, it starts to make a lot of sense and we can, in this sense, teach one how to create balance most efficiently.

 

I think this is where the two meet...?

 

Did that make any sense or do I need to try new wine?

 

cheers

 

I don't know how brushing came into this discussion, it's neutral (or it should be neutral) to technique discussions and the high-c all it means to me is a specific focus on carving the top of the turn versus steering it.

 

... since it came to talking about the high-c, if you look at the awesome and masterful latest video of the 3 musketeers, you will see the difference between the two smooth southerners and the Canadian, who steers the top of the turn and thus has a more jerky and balance-challenged bottom of the arc, in the short turns, versus the two... at least to me eye... and of course at a much higher level than I can ever aspire to.


Edited by razie - 11/14/15 at 9:06pm
post #184 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

 

I agree that we can't teach balance. It's a skill, not a technique. We can develop it, of course.

 

 

Hasn't  teaching skills  (ERP) been the foundation of a national teaching organization?   YM

post #185 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post

 

Hasn't  teaching skills  (ERP) been the foundation of a national teaching organization?   YM

I don't agree with that approach. It flies in the face of all modern thoughts on developing talent.

 

These "skills" lay between movements and results and just fuzzify the entire concept. Nothing should be fuzzy about developing fundamentals. How do you "deep practice" pressure? How do you "deep practice" rotary?

 

What were the traits of a master coach? A deep understanding of the sport and decomposing it to the fundamental components, naming them? Well, these are not it!

 

Just confirmed another country whose national guidelines insist on technique and fundamental movements (as stances and actions): Romania. Just went through the entire official manual.

 

I can't find anything in German - that would be interesting, to see the approach in Germany/Austria/thereabouts... it's hard to search with Google translate.

post #186 of 207
What language was it in?
post #187 of 207

You have to realize that in Romania, as in most of Europe, one generally has to go to the "Sports University", study for 5 years and get a degree in Sports Teaching and Performance Coaching to become a high-school sports teachers or recognized coach in any sport. In-depth knowledge of anatomy and biomechanics and knowledge on developing sports "skill" is thus a given. Not quite the 3 days course for Level 100 as in North America... can't say I'm complaining though ;)

 

The manual was written by a few Professors from the said University, half of them likely listed for "political" reasons... as is the norm there... haven't seem them ski though :) And the progressions themselves are not out of the ordinary (although I found other detailed manuals that were very detailed oriented and more interesting) - but I was just looking at the language and focus and it is on "techniques and fundamental movements (stances and actions)".

 

Interski PSIA comments that directed my attention to Europeans (as if dominating the WC was not enough)

- "watching some of these euro countries that are really into it, they're amazing" https://youtu.be/sgKAZ_mLwbQ?t=1m19s

- "our main technical model focuses on skills - and the Swiss model for example talks about families of movements that are different from the skills we are talking about" https://youtu.be/sgKAZ_mLwbQ?t=2m1s

 

Some interesting stuff from some of the manuals - this is the list of the technical procedures for changing direction (turning) by rotation:

 

Quote:

c) ocoliri declansate prin rotatie

- ocolire prin pivotare

- cristiania spre vale pe movila

- cristiania spre vale cu desprindere

- cristiania spre vale cu departare

- cristiania spre vale  prin rotatie

- cristiania spre vale  cu amortizare pe movila

- cristiania spre vale cu pasire

- cristiania spre vale cu contraderapaj

- cristiania spre vale cu deschidere

 

d) ocoliri declansate prin transiatie

- serpuirea rotunjita

- serpuire franata

- serpuire accelerata

 

As you can tell, the first one is pivoting and the rest are Christies - I had no idea there are so many kinds of Christies, to be honest :eek 

 

Could not find anything in French or German though...

 

Annoyingly, the world - she is large and diverse, eh?


Edited by razie - 11/16/15 at 9:46am
post #188 of 207

razie, could we have a translation?

post #189 of 207

heh - i was just looking for that. found a quick overview of the official methodology, in english - http://www.sportforfun.ro/tabere-schi/sistem-metodic-schi-alpin/?lang=en It is a rather interesting translation to English but understandable. It's cool that part of the focus at the black level is quieting up and down and developing a lower overall stance between turns - I particularly like that :) Also the snowplow approach is recommended for those with "less developed basic mobility skills" heh. You gotta love the Europeans....

 

Unfortunately google translate is not readable with technical docs. Here's one of the manuals - you could try, but i had issues myself, understanding what google translate came up with http://bit.ly/1RZq5Zw 

try google chrome and it will want to translate it

 

That section was the types of turns, by trigger mechanism - google translate edited by me (section 2.3.3 - the diagrams are quite explanatory) :

a)    stepping

          - turning through successive steps to uphill;

          - turning through successive steps to the downhill.

b)    braking directed

           - turning via snowplow braking;

           - turning through braking ½ snowplow.

c)    rotation to the downhill 

           - turn with pivot;

           - downhill christie  on the bump;

           - downhill christie  with spreading the skis;

           - downhill christie with hopping;

           - downhill christie  with opening;

           - downhill christie  by rotation;

           - downhill christie  with counter-skidding;

           - downhill christie  with stepping;

           - downhill christie  with absorption on the bump;

d)    by translation (connecting turns)

           - Meandering rounded

           - Meandering braked

           - Meandering accelerated.

           - Meandering with absorption.

 

Since in Europe a lot of this is government funded, i expected a more more info to be online from other countries as well - if you guys can search better in other languages, it would be interesting...


Edited by razie - 11/16/15 at 10:36am
post #190 of 207
Interesting, I was born in Romania, I learned to ski there.
post #191 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

heh - i was just looking for that. found a quick overview of the official methodology, in english - http://www.sportforfun.ro/tabere-schi/sistem-metodic-schi-alpin/?lang=en It is a rather interesting translation to English but understandable. It's cool that part of the focus at the black level is quieting up and down and developing a lower overall stance between turns - I particularly like that :) Also the snowplow approach is recommended for those with "less developed basic mobility skills" heh. You gotta love the Europeans....

 

Unfortunately google translate is not readable with technical docs. Here's one of the manuals - you could try, but i had issues myself, understanding what google translate came up with http://bit.ly/1RZq5Zw 

try google chrome and it will want to translate it

 

That section was the types of turns, by trigger mechanism - google translate edited by me (section 2.3.3 - the diagrams are quite explanatory) :

a)    stepping

          - turning through successive steps to uphill;

          - turning through successive steps to the downhill.

b)    braking directed

           - turning via snowplow braking;

           - turning through braking ½ snowplow.

c)    rotation to the downhill 

           - turn with pivot;

           - downhill christie  on the bump;

           - downhill christie  with spreading the skis;

           - downhill christie with hopping;

           - downhill christie  with opening;

           - downhill christie  by rotation;

           - downhill christie  with counter-skidding;

           - downhill christie  with stepping;

           - downhill christie  with absorption on the bump;

d)    by translation (connecting turns)

           - Meandering rounded

           - Meandering braked

           - Meandering accelerated.

           - Meandering with absorption.

 

Since in Europe a lot of this is government funded, i expected a more more info to be online from other countries as well - if you guys can search better in other languages, it would be interesting...

 

IMO that list is not very structured.

post #192 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

IMO that list is not very structured.

for sure we'll agree and disagree on this and that... there's many ways to look at skiing and slice it and dice it....

 

I was looking for the general approach, i.e. movements vs skills, techniques vs skills etc.

post #193 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

I don't agree with that approach. It flies in the face of all modern thoughts on developing talent.

 

These "skills" lay between movements and results and just fuzzify the entire concept. Nothing should be fuzzy about developing fundamentals. How do you "deep practice" pressure? How do you "deep practice" rotary?

 

What were the traits of a master coach? A deep understanding of the sport and decomposing it to the fundamental components, naming them? Well, these are not it!

 

Just confirmed another country whose national guidelines insist on technique and fundamental movements (as stances and actions): Romania. Just went through the entire official manual.

 

I can't find anything in German - that would be interesting, to see the approach in Germany/Austria/thereabouts... it's hard to search with Google translate.

Not saying I agree with it, (the skills teaching approach)      Just remarking on your comment about balance being a skill.    Just saying.     YM

post #194 of 207

The thing is...skills do not equate to technique.  PSIA teaches skills officially and some different techniques unofficially that vary from person to person, as long as they are presented with words resembling the 4 skills, or now the 5 fundamentals..which are essentially still the same skills as before.

 

There has been a lot of disagreement in the ranks for quite some time about whether balance should be considered a "skill" like the other 3 skills, or whether it should be 3 skills which result in balance...something like that.  

 

Is it ERP+B or BERP?  Is it 4 skills or  3 skills +1 other thing...the other thing being balance?  

 

It has always been rather foggy and there have been personal opinions all over the map about it and theories abounding to make sense out of the balance thing....skill or whatever it is.....

 

I feel the reason that occurred is because many people conflated the meaning of skill and technique into one and the same thing..  They considered the teaching of "skills" to be equivalent to teaching some kind of technique.  And they directly associated specific bio mechanical movements with each of those 3 skills and focused most learning and teaching to be about developing those bio mechanical skills as movements.  You twist your legs for rotary, you flex and extend your legs for pressure.  You tip your feet side to side...or lean side to side, to create edging.  But Balance...  balance as a thing like that...does't have a specific movement you can do to actually "do" it.   ultimately balance is felt. 

 

I will argue that the conflation of skills and techniques has led to false understanding all over the map about skiing, focusing too much on these bio mechanical movements of twisting, pushing and leaning...making these skills very bio mechanical oriented and much less about ski performance and outcomes; and completely ignoring the specifics of how those skills should be blended together while executing ski technique.  

 

So the balance skill, doesn't quite line up with those...because there is not a nice and tidy bio mechanical movement to associate with balance.  So when people are thinking that way, with the skills needing to be associated with specific bio  mechanical movements...balance falls off the side to many people as somehow not a "skill"...but something else.  Many people have tried to say "hey wait a minute, balance isn't a skill like the other ones, there is no movement I can teach!".  "How do I teach balance?".  Some folks on this thread now in 2015 have declared that it can't be taught and they don't want to try to teach balance.

 

So there is a lot of disagreement in the ranks about whether the skills concept should be ERP+B or BERP.  

 

The new five fundamentals actually ironed it out in my mind that Balance is definitely a skill like the other 3 skills.  They just spelled it out as two separate balance oriented skills and tried to find a way to express that in terms of some kind of bio mechanical movements that can be taught.  They mentioned manipulation of pressure along the length of the ski, and managing pressure bias laterally to the outside ski...both are outcomes of developing balance as a skill. 

 

So clearly PSIA still today feels that balance is a skill and it should be taught in some way.  I feel the new 5 fundamentals did try to set in stone that the skills concept is BERP, not ERP+B.

 

Notwithstanding, none of the skills concept, not before and not now; really expresses the technique needed to obtain good outcomes in those 5 skill areas.  So, while balance is felt...and you can't really teach someone what it feels like to be in balance.  You don't actually need to teach them that.  But you do need to teach them how to make sure you are in balance on the correct part of the correct ski for example, or retaining balance while moving through turn dynamics, etc.  That is the detail of technique which can absolutely be taught.  Good technique will lead to better balance, not just avoiding falling down, but precise balance where pressure goes to the correct part of the correct ski for the greatest possible time while skiing.

 

The balance skill, according to PSIA, is about being in tune with with your balance and manipulating according to unnamed technique, such that you manipulate pressure along the length of the ski in some way that is desirable but undescribed, or such that your pressure tends to go to the outside laterally.  They don't really call that balance...and actually nowhere do they state that balance is a skill...but nonetheless....those two fundamentals are absolutely going to be mastered when balance is mastered.

 

So as an instructor how do you teach someone to master their balance?  You teach them techniques which are engineered to get them in the ballpark of good balance while skiing dynamically and responding the changing external forces.  These techniques involve combinations of movement from the traditional 4 skills, with outcomes that will include many aspects of ski performance, as well as balance to the correct part of the correct ski at every phase of the turn.

post #195 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

It has always been rather foggy and there have been personal opinions all over the map about it and theories abounding to make sense out of the balance thing....skill or whatever it is.....

 

 

BTS

 

First, thanks for taking the time to write a pretty thoughtful post. 

 

Here's my personal opinion....

 

The root of the problem is the varied definitions and the "where and whens" use of the word "balance". Most importantly, during a dynamic carved turn, our "balance" shifts in application between constant (gravity) and resultant (centripetal) force. 

 

But let's for a minute focus on the never- ever level of skier.  For them there is only one kind of balance and that is "Don't Fall Down" balance and it all takes place within their well known, every day environment of gravitational force. What has changed for them is the 6x increase in the size of their feet and the friction-less interface with the surface under their feet bounded by a couple of abrupt 90 degree edges.  At this level, there are an abundance of exercises that teach the brain to adapt and develop the envelope of balance.  It is here that the B in BERP makes the most sense. And again, it is all within the confines of gravitational force. 

 

Over time, abilities increase until the level when the developing turn creates centripetal force that competes with and supplants the "Don't Fall Down" component of gravity.  Here, balance becomes a result of technique. 

post #196 of 207

well see that's just it.  I think the two new PSIA fundamentals I just mentioned....  manipulating pressure along the length of the ski and manipulating it laterally to the outside ski.....is directly and fundamentally applicable to first time beginners as well.  That is the point I tried to make months ago on that wedge christie thread which has taken us round in circle until now here we are again...  it applies to all skiers.  Why not teach them the first first day how to find the sweet spot of the ski and balance on it?

post #197 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

... many people conflated the meaning of skill and technique into one and the same thing..  

 

 

 

So CSIA/CSCF win the prize there, 'cause in our approach it's "technical skills" !

:rotflmao: 

 

Edit/ps Hold the phone - just noticed that CSCF's approach changed significantly in 2014/2015. the words "balance, pivoting, steering, pressure" etc are not even mentioned at all, in the entire manual. technical skills are radically different now and include "separation" and "carving the outside ski" which actually make sense as skills. ooh - and there's a new section on "global movements" along the planes of movement. oooh - i must've missed the memo or something...


Edited by razie - 11/16/15 at 5:50pm
post #198 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

well see that's just it.  I think the two new PSIA fundamentals I just mentioned....  manipulating pressure along the length of the ski and manipulating it laterally to the outside ski.....is directly and fundamentally applicable to first time beginners as well.  That is the point I tried to make months ago on that wedge christie thread which has taken us round in circle until now here we are again...  it applies to all skiers.  Why not teach them the first first day how to find the sweet spot of the ski and balance on it?

No problem with that.  As I said, there are an abundance of exercises one can do to teach and develop the envelope of balance.  You can't find the sweet spot unless you have a bunch of other spots to choose from. 

 

The elephant in the room is that manipulating pressure along the length and laterally to the outside ski is not effective at low speed without the inside outrigger. But I have no problem with the philosophy.

post #199 of 207

BTS, as usual, some interesting stuff. How exactly are you categorizing these components within a certain technique?  We have the skills, but isn't technique more of a blend of maneuvers and movement patterns that simply rely on these skills? I think you "drill" the skill and "teach" the technique. In such a small window of speaking and discussion time within a typical lesson, there is no time for discussing things that are already better of addressed with drills. Balance? Perhaps it is something I should think about and look at. Normally, it never crosses my mind in the course of skiing.

 

Do you think it may be possible that the PSIA developed a more simple or, dare I say, dumbed down, program in order to have something that more easily distributes through all the schools in a consistent manor? I think it may be an obvious speculation to assume that the more complicated the program, the more instructors will differentiate from each other. Compared to skills, technique is more conceptual and therefore will likely depend more on personal experience rather than strictly adhering to any certain teaching methodology. Do you think that perhaps this simpler skill set focus may also be something that is designed to deliver customer value specifically to the one and done student which may be a higher percentage of students than we think? 

post #200 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

The elephant in the room is that manipulating pressure along the length and laterally to the outside ski is not effective at low speed without the inside outrigger.

 

I beg to differ.   The underlined bit does not have to be all or nothing.  It may or may not be absolutely total balance on the outside ski, depending on the skier, but all that a never ever needs to do is have the balance MORE towards the outside ski.  As they learn this technique and develop that balance skill they will be increasingly able to establish better and better balance on the outside ski.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

BTS, as usual, some interesting stuff. How exactly are you categorizing these components within a certain technique?  We have the skills, but isn't technique more of a blend of maneuvers and movement patterns that simply rely on these skills? I think you "drill" the skill and "teach" the technique. In such a small window of speaking and discussion time within a typical lesson, there is no time for discussing things that are already better of addressed with drills. Balance?

 

Technique can be taught a lot of different ways ranging from discovery and hardly any words spoken to deep technical discussions on Epicski; and everything in between.  There is no rule whatsoever that says technique has to be talked about in great detail and technique can range from very simple little things to very complex things, depending on the skier and the situation.  Technique is simply telling or showing them HOW to ski.

 

Take never ever lessons as an example.  you get a young couple from chicago, they have never been skiing before.  the minute you shake their hand and start talking to them, within minutes you will be giving them advice about tactics and technique that applies to their level.  This could be as simple as showing them for example good technique for how to put their skis on, or side stepping up a hill using the uphill edge which I can tell you does not always get figured out automatically without you telling them or showing them, etc.. Or talking about tactics about looking up the hill before sliding forward to make sure nobody is coming (simple tactic).  these are simple things..but they represent specific technique or tactical instructions...and that is what instructors get paid to teach.  Skill development is another thing which has to do with mastering the execution of those basic skills...rotary, edging, pressure, balance.. 

 

Its a total disservice to think you will just talk about a drill and guide them around while they flounder around behind you trying to figure it out without having been told or shown a single thing about how to do it.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Do you think it may be possible that the PSIA developed a more simple or, dare I say, dumbed down, program in order to have something that more easily distributes through all the schools in a consistent manor? 

 

As I said, technique does not have to be complicated.  It seems complicated on Epicski only because so many people here argue about it all day long and go around in circles over lots of minutia and conflicting mis information.  In real life it doesn't have to be nearly that complicated, in fact its not complicated at all, but PSIA basically avoids the topic altogether and in my view that has created MORE confusion, MORE speculation, MORE mis information, MORE arguing and disagreement.  Lack of information means the inmates are running the asylum.

 

As I have said numerous times before, the Skills are not irrelevant.  Skills are part of skiing.  Developing those skills is part of getting better at skiing.  I personally think that a strong focus on skill development is more applicable to racer kids that get repeated and regular coaching; or kids or adults in weekly programs that may focus all winter on a limited amount of technique and many drills to develop skills for that technique.  An awful lot of typical ski school lessons, however, are with clients that will take one lesson for the whole winter.  Their time would be much better served by learning some correct technique and getting a breakthrough, so they can spend the rest of the winter developing skills with the new technique they learned.

 

Skill development is certainly not irrelevant.  But neither is technique, and words like you have spoken above tend to demonize technique with the false impression that it is complicated or difficult to comprehend, but that is hogwash, that is all in the presentation.  The problem is that PSIA does not take a stand on technique, does not provide instructors with ANY idea about technique whatsoever.  Instructors do teach technique on their own because we have to.  Our clients need to be taught technique.  But they will often get mixed messages because there is no top down leadership regarding technique, and a whole lot of mis information circulating around.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Compared to skills, technique is more conceptual and therefore will likely depend more on personal experience rather than strictly adhering to any certain teaching methodology. Do you think that perhaps this simpler skill set focus may also be something that is designed to deliver customer value specifically to the one and done student which may be a higher percentage of students than we think? 

 

Again, don't assume that clients need to be told all the ins and outs and conceptual technique issues that we discuss here.  It may be as simple as during a lesson you are going to focus on one very specific technique issue and teach it and hope the student gets a lightbulb moment through experience that this particular technique really makes skiing easier or better for them.  This is not brain surgery.  Its just technique and its not that complicated.

 

I personally do not think the skill concept focus is serving clients as you are suggesting, I think it is letting them down.  I think it makes a lot more sense for students that are in programs that come back regularly throughout the season with the same coach to develop skills over time.

 

The biggest problem of all that I see is that many in the industry have tried to substitute skill development for technique...  And that is not working out very well in my opinion.

post #201 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, don't assume that clients need to be told all the ins and outs and conceptual technique issues that we discuss here.  It may be as simple as during a lesson you are going to focus on one very specific technique issue and teach it and hope the student gets a lightbulb moment through experience that this particular technique really makes skiing easier or better for them.  This is not brain surgery.  Its just technique and its not that complicated.

 

I personally do not think the skill concept focus is serving clients as you are suggesting, I think it is letting them down.  I think it makes a lot more sense for students that are in programs that come back regularly throughout the season with the same coach to develop skills over time.

 

The biggest problem of all that I see is that many in the industry have tried to substitute skill development for technique...  And that is not working out very well in my opinion.

As I think about these comments I think that most of the lessons I teach probably  develop in such a way as  I begin more with a skill and then progress to technique.  

In other words, I probably start most lessons with developing a skill and then spend some time integrating that skill into technique.  Here is how to use that skill for more effective  and efficient skiing.    YM

post #202 of 207

I'm pretty sure its not possible to teach skills without teaching some kind of technique.  The question is whether that technique is good or not.  I'm pretty sure with you it is.  :)  Don't make more out of the word "technique" then it needs to be.  ANY instruction other then "tip your feet" or "twist your legs"...which gives them specific instructions for how to ski.....is technique.

post #203 of 207

Well...... I think in all your analysis you fail to see one thing, loss of a good and insightful poster,  Bud Heishman.

post #204 of 207

I'm pretty sure Bud is out skiing and he will be back to entertain you soon.

post #205 of 207

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by JESINSTR View Post
 

The elephant in the room is that manipulating pressure along the length and laterally to the outside ski is not effective at low speed without the inside outrigger.

Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

I beg to differ.   The underlined bit does not have to be all or nothing.  It may or may not be absolutely total balance on the outside ski, depending on the skier, but all that a never ever needs to do is have the balance MORE towards the outside ski.  As they learn this technique and develop that balance skill they will be increasingly able to establish better and better balance on the outside ski.

 

 

 

I admire you good intentions and I don't disagree with what you are trying to profess but in a gravitational environment as long as the inside ski is in opposition to the outside, your "Don't Fall Down" balance is somewhere in between and there will always be a battle between safety and effective movement patterns.

 

Now, can one learn and apply effective movement patterns to the outside ski while  balance is divided between your inside and outside? Absolutely. One of my most interesting progressions is teaching short radius turns beginning in a wedge and morphing into parallel.  It is amazing how many able skiers have trouble coordinating in the wedge configuration. And that goes to your point. 

They have never learn the abiltity to "Position Balance"  against the outside ski.

 

Finally,  this discussion really points to that good ole christie milestone. It is there that the skier must learn to convert their inside leg from being a balance crutch to becoming a turn facilitator. 

post #206 of 207

I think we're saying the same thing JES.  Great points!

post #207 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

 

That section was the types of turns, by trigger mechanism - google translate edited by me (section 2.3.3 - the diagrams are quite explanatory) :

a)    stepping

          - turning through successive steps to uphill;

          - turning through successive steps to the downhill.

I never teach this because I dont want the student to pick up the skis off the snow to turn. But can be done.

 

b)    braking directed

           - turning via snowplow braking;

           - turning through braking ½ snowplow.

This is the normal progression. As the student gets more comfortable you lessen the wedge angle.

 

c)    rotation to the downhill 

           - turn with pivot; Not sure what this means. Every Parallell Christie involves a pivot.

           - downhill christie  on the bump; No need to unweight the skis as the bump does that for you. And with your ski tips and tails off the snow its easy to pivot.

           - downhill christie  with spreading the skis; This is what we call a wedge Christie.

           - downhill christie with hopping; Could mean two things. You hop in the air and turn the other direction or you hop in the air and land offset to initiate a skidding angle.

           - downhill christie  with opening; This is probably a Stem Christie.

           - downhill christie  by rotation; Every Parallell Christie involves rotation of some sort. Maybe they fuel the turn by upper body rotation. Something you should not do.

           - downhill christie  with counter-skidding; This is nice. A small pre-turn / counter steering uphill for momentum to start the turn donwhill. When you link short turns you do this automatically but thats next section.

           - downhill christie  with stepping; This must be a Thousand Step Turn.

           - downhill christie  with absorption on the bump; Same as #1 but with absorbtion.

 

d)    by translation (connecting turns)

           - Meandering rounded

           - Meandering braked

           - Meandering accelerated.

           - Meandering with absorption.

This section is a bit of a ? for me. Rounded turns! All turns should be rounded. Shorter turns means more pivot and rotation. And cause more braking. If you want to accellerate stay closer to the fall line or carve your turns. Absorbtion: cross under type turns or bump skiing.

 

Since in Europe a lot of this is government funded, i expected a more more info to be online from other countries as well - if you guys can search better in other languages, it would be interesting...

 

Not very structured as I said before.

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