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Do KneeBindings offer enough muscle for an ex-racer?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

I'm thinking about purchasing a pair of KneeBindings and am wondering if anyone's had issues with pre-release? I'm in the market for a pair of the Carbon's and am coming from a collegiate race background. Now that I'm dialing back and getting up in years I'm trying to avoid any injuries that might be lurking in the future. Note: I haven't had an injury in the past.

 

With that said, I don't drop cliffs or play in the park. But, I do ski hard and faster than my wife appreciates. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs. From what I've read these bindings should keep me connected? Will these bindings get the job done for me, or should I look at a traditional binding. 

 

Basically, if I can ski safely on a KneeBinding (from a pre-release standpoint) I'd like to. Any racers or ex-racers (or people that ski like they do, or they did), haha, who can comment on this, I'd love to hear it. 


Edited by Born2Schuss - 1/13/16 at 11:30am
post #2 of 22

Sounds like you need to come Master's racing with us. http://www.rmmskiracing.org/

 

I have not heard any reports of release problems with KB's and yes, they will work for your type of skiing.

 

The designer has a new binding in the pipeline...http://www.howellskibindings.com/

post #3 of 22
The only negative I've heard or read is a low DIN and high highth.
post #4 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post

The designer has a new binding in the pipeline...http://www.howellskibindings.com/

These look interesting!
post #5 of 22

I'm an ex-racer and have skied in them for a total of about 30-35 days, including in moguls, and had no pre-releases (one pair is on my Stockil Laser SC's, the other is on my Head Rock 'n Rolls).  I can't tell you how well the release works, because I've had no releases period (I didn't have any release-requiring falls when I was on them).  I used them at 7 toe/ 8 heel (my usual setting).  OTOH, I'm a lot lighter than you -- 150# -- but I assume if you are within their DIN range, it won't be an issue.  The stance height of their heel piece does create a longer moment arm, which might lead to more lateral deflection in the binding -- but I didn't notice any when I was skiing on them.  I do like that you can readily adjust the delta by swapping out different thickness toe shims (though they charge extra for those, other than the one you get with your binding).

post #6 of 22

KB is a radioactive topic on Epic. Members entertain a huge amount of skepticism about the binding; some are enthusiastic about it.  We've had nasty battles, some that included both the binding's designer and the current owner of the company.

 

Skepticism comes from people who point out that the bindings aren't TUV certified and that no controlled studies have been undertaken to prove the bindings are safe. 

 

Support comes from people who own KB. None have reported prerelease problems, but anecdotal evidence isn't sound evidence.

 

Also, no one here has reported that they've suffered ACL damage in the kinds of falls KB was designed to mitigate. (One poster reported an injury using KB that seemed not to involve a phantom foot event.)  Again, this is anecdotal, not scientific, support.

 

I'm agnostic on KB. My wife owns a pair, and she's happy with them.  She's had no prerelease issues, no releases of any kind — but she's nothing like a ripper, and since her ACL injury and reconstruction (pre-KB), she's even more cautious.  

 

The only problem she's had is difficulty clicking in to one binding. The company's owner called us personally to try to solve the issue, and he then conferenced with a tech about it. The binding is better, but she still has to lever up the heel piece to click in.  It was a known issue at the time, apparently, and has since been fixed.  That discussion (some of it carried on here) caused some members to complain that the company was beta testing its bindings on consumers.  Fair enough. 

 

On the other hand, no prerelease reports have surfaced (that we know of), and no one has said that a phantom foot event on KB has resulted in an ACL injury. Again, that's anecdotal and unscientific — as would be a report of prerelease or phantom foot ACL injury.

post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 

Interesting, this is the first I've heard about KB not being TUV certified. It seems like the next logical step for the company to build up its reputation...thanks for the info!

post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

Interesting, this is the first I've heard about KB not being TUV certified. It seems like the next logical step for the company to build up its reputation...thanks for the info!


Not sure how this works. It seems as if a new test would have to be developed, and that sounds expensive.

post #9 of 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

Interesting, this is the first I've heard about KB not being TUV certified. It seems like the next logical step for the company to build up its reputation...thanks for the info!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


Not sure how this works. It seems as if a new test would have to be developed, and that sounds expensive.

 

The story from KB is that they submitted their binding and passed the test but, being a new company, wanted to delay paying for the formal certification. [This could mean they passed preliminary testing but not the full suite, or that they effectively have passed all the safety testing and just lack the formality of a certificate; I don't know which.]  At this point I agree, Born2Schuss, they should get the certification.  I have no information on whether they would need to pay extra for a special test for their design, or if they would just pay the standard rate and have the standard test done, which simply would not include lateral release at the heel.


Edited by chemist - 11/3/15 at 1:29pm
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemist View Post
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

Interesting, this is the first I've heard about KB not being TUV certified. It seems like the next logical step for the company to build up its reputation...thanks for the info!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


Not sure how this works. It seems as if a new test would have to be developed, and that sounds expensive.

 

The story from KB is that they submitted their binding and passed the test but, being a new company, wanted to delay paying for the formal certification. [This could mean they passed preliminary testing but not the full suite, or that they effectively have passed all the safety testing and just lack the formality of a certificate; I don't know which.]  At this point I agree, Born2Schuss, they should get the certification.  I have no information on whether they would need to pay extra for a special test for their design, or if they would just pay the standard rate and have the standard test done, which simply would not include lateral release at the heel.

 

Interesting. Was that in a magazine story or something? 

 

I can imagine certain Epic members grumbling over a statement like that.  It's a bit vague.  In any case, they may count on their market being people who have no idea about TÜV certs — either because they'd rather not pay for one now, or because (as certain Epic members believe) they have something to hide.

 

I remain agnostic — but I think they need the TÜV cert.

post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 

Interesting. Was that in a magazine story or something? 

 

Nope.    And I agree they should get the TÜV cert.

post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 

I'm curious about adjusting my DIN setting. The shop placed it at 8 for me (6'2 200 lbs) which seems a little bit low. From what I've read it's best not to tweak it upwards until you pre-release a few times. Has anyone had any experience with needing to up their DIN on KneeBindings specifically? 

post #13 of 22

Here's my take.

 

I'm not an ex-racer.  But I'm a strong skier.  5'11/195, and I'm not fat.  I skied on Salomon 916s set at 13 on a pair of 194 Faction Thirteens, and I blew up my knee at Kicking Horse.  Then I skied down to the truck and went home.  I put in another 12 days of skiing after that day.  Then I had my knee fixed in the summer.  I sold the 916s and the Factions.

 

I still ski on 916s.  I have them set at 11-toe and 12-heel, but I still love the 916.  I also have a pair of Dukes, but I love the 916.  Even thought they blew up my knee, they're still the binding I trust.

post #14 of 22

"I'm curious about adjusting my DIN setting. The shop placed it at 8 for me (6'2 200 lbs) which seems a little bit low. From what I've read it's best not to tweak it upwards until you pre-release a few times. Has anyone had any experience with needing to up their DIN on KneeBindings specifically? "

 

 

 

This will be my 3rd year with KB on 2 pairs of skis. I ski hard and fast when conditions allow. I have had no pre-releases with them set at the recommended numbers. Several guys at the my ski shop are on them and have had no problems. I would go with the recommended din until and unless you have a problem. Or, you might create a problem.

They are great bindings, have fun!

post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

I'm curious about adjusting my DIN setting. The shop placed it at 8 for me (6'2 200 lbs) which seems a little bit low. From what I've read it's best not to tweak it upwards until you pre-release a few times. Has anyone had any experience with needing to up their DIN on KneeBindings specifically? 


There is latitude in the DIN settings, based on whether you indicate if you're a type I, II, III, or III+, as well as if you're over 50.  You should check a DIN chart and see which category they put you in (or ask the shop) (unless you remember yourself).  Note also that, everything else being equal, larger feet result in a reduction in DIN, since longer boots create more leverage against the leg.

 

I use the same DIN on my KB's as elsewhere, and I didn't have any pre-releases (indeed, I've had no releases at all).

 

Note also that, if you run a different setting for your heel and toe (I use 7 toe/8 heel) that the lateral release setting at the heel has to equal the toe setting, not the (upward) heel setting!  This makes sense, since the toe is a lateral release, while the heel is an upward release.  It's in KB's technical manual for shop techs, but some shop techs don't know this.


Edited by chemist - 12/9/15 at 3:15pm
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 

Thanks! Very helpful

post #17 of 22

I have had my KB most of last season, I'm 5'11 200lbs. My DIN is 9.5, I'm 61y/o. Ski fast and ski the whole mountain, skied 65 day's last year. No pre-release.

 

The last time I pre-released...well I now have a plate and 7 screws in my left collar bone. That was in a Marker binding, after I had gained some weight and not adjusted my DIN up.

 

 

http://www.dinsetting.com/

 

Oh dear, don't use that site, there's no way I'd ski on that setting.

 

 

here's another but that's still not the one I used to use. Can't find that one on line.

 

https://www.easycalculation.com/sports/din-calculator.php


Edited by Max Capacity - 12/9/15 at 3:23pm
post #18 of 22
Turning up the DIN does not stop prereleases. That is a myth.
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

Turning up the DIN does not stop prereleases. That is a myth.

It does stop releases, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caucasian Asian View Post
 

Here's my take.

 

I'm not an ex-racer.  But I'm a strong skier.  5'11/195, and I'm not fat.  I skied on Salomon 916s set at 13 on a pair of 194 Faction Thirteens, and I blew up my knee at Kicking Horse.  


Edited by Whiteroom - 12/9/15 at 9:36pm
post #20 of 22

I have been on KneeBindings since my ACL reconstruction surgery in 2008. I've skied 425 days on them since then, and that even includes a number of Masters races on them - though I only crashed in one race when I caught a tip on a slalom gate. I have never had a pre-release nor a knee injury on them - but I have had several other injuries due to some crashes when they released like bindings should...

post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

I'm curious about adjusting my DIN setting. The shop placed it at 8 for me (6'2 200 lbs) which seems a little bit low. From what I've read it's best not to tweak it upwards until you pre-release a few times. Has anyone had any experience with needing to up their DIN on KneeBindings specifically? 


I'm using a DIN of 8 on all three settings, and am 5' 10" and 172 pounds. From what I've seen they have released for me when they should have, and not when they shouldn't. The DIN fudge factor is the 1/2/3 skier type parameter, which allows quite a bit of range for the same physical parameters.

post #22 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Schuss View Post
 

I'm thinking about purchasing a pair of KneeBindings and am wondering if anyone's had issues with pre-release? I'm in the market for a pair of the Carbon's and am coming from a collegiate race background. Now that I'm dialing back and getting up in years I'm trying to avoid any injuries that might be lurking in the future. Note: I haven't had an injury in the past.

 

With that said, I don't drop cliffs or play in the park. But, I do ski hard and faster than my wife appreciates. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs. From what I've read these bindings should keep me connected? Will these bindings get the job done for me, or should I look at a traditional binding. 

 

Basically, if I can ski safely on a KneeBinding (from a pre-release standpoint) I'd like to. Any racers or ex-racers (or people that ski like they do, or they did), haha, who can comment on this, I'd love to hear it. 

 

Thanks for all the feedback guys! I ended up mounting a pair of Carbons on my Blizzard Bonafides. Check out my review on OnTheSnow for more info on how they performed over the past two months: http://www.onthesnow.com/news/a/618263/kneebinding--step-into-the-3rd-dimension

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