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Midday Grooming----why is it extinct? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounceswoosh View Post
 

 

Please tell me this is somehow not as racist as it loos to me.

 

He didn't say "drunk" he said "lazy!"

post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatcountry View Post
 

 

He didn't say "drunk" he said "lazy!"


or, god forbid, "hard working".

post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
 

This is probably spot on. 

 

I think culturally it's a very anglo-USA sort of thinking that we should always be productive. Economic growth and what not. I don't think a lot of the Natives give a sh@t about that. It's hard to fully get being such a programmed anglo American but I actually really like that. 

 

Luckily, most staff at ski resorts (whether Native American, Indian, or what have you) is that they definitely uphold that non-anglo tradition of "*** it, I'll do as little as possible to get by."  Hey, some days even I feel like that!

 

Mod edit: Removed profanity. 

post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackke17 View Post
 

groomers? we don't ski no stinking groomers!

 

I like to tell my powder hound friends: "If you only ski powder, then you are not hard core".:snowfight

post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by UllrIsLord View Post

I think they do it at Copper.

 

The 'Noon Groomer' is groomed at night and closed opening to noon when they drop the rope.  On a good powder day it's poached out by 10:30.

 

Some specialized grooming, parks and race courses may have groomers on them during the day but they close the run.  Last winter they kept a 'temporary race course' closed for most of March and April.  Waste of good skiing terrain.

post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ali pine View Post

The 'Noon Groomer' is groomed at night and closed opening to noon when they drop the rope.  On a good powder day it's poached out by 10:30...

Why, I am shocked, SHOCKED, to hear this. It's as if someonegotlostinthetreesandcameoutonthewrongsideaccidentallyonpurposeonthegroomerthatwasallfullofsnowandnotracks... No, I just don't see how that could happen.
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatcountry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

Come ski Vail. They still groom during the day. The cats that do the grooming usually travel in large clowder like the pic below.

 

Just don't fall in front of the clowder of cats. Won't be enough large pieces to ID. :eek

 

 

 

Don't worry.  In my experience at Vail, they will only groom that one big stripe and the rest of the bowl is what it is.

 

It's Ok. I don't have issue with grooming. I can ski groomers. :yahoo:

 

As Josh would say, "It's not that you can't ski groomer, It's you can't ski and the groomers proved it." :D  

post #38 of 57

Not so much a mid-day groomer, but I do remember that at the Mid-Atlantic gathering in 2013 the ops manager of Blue Knob adopted a unique groomer strategy for us. (Thanks to @Laurel Hill Crazie talking to the manager about our gathering and he was giving us special treatment). They groomed at night as usual, but then it went through a freeze thaw with a bit of rain. They went back out in the early AM to regroom some of the trails to help mitigate some of the problems caused by that, and I remember that in the opinion of those of us there that day that it seemed to help some. 

post #39 of 57
Sugar mountain in NC does grooming from 4.30 to 6 when it closes to prepare for night skiing.
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman View Post

Sugar mountain in NC does grooming from 4.30 to 6 when it closes to prepare for night skiing.


Ah, so Sugar still is closed in the late afternoon.  Haven't skied there for about 10 years.  Beech down the road decided to stay open continuously from morning thru the night sessions a while back.  Now there is a Twilight lift ticket that goes 1pm until Closing that is the same price as a day ticket, plus a less costly Night ticket that starts at 5pm.

post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
 

Mid-day grooming doesn't really accomplish what many think it accomplishes.  Mid-day grooming will churn up the snow and smooth the surface out, but the newly churned up snow needs time (overnight) to freeze again to be a nice, firm, consistent surface that many skiers enjoy (expect?).

 

My experience with mid-day grooms is that you get a nice super-soft surface for about 10 minutes and then conditions start deteriorating again in a hurry with pushed-up piles forming in a hurry.  IMHO, mid-day grooming makes the conditions worse, not better.


The utility of mid-day grooming depends on snow condition and skier ability and equipment.  

 

Ability/equipment:  I was skiing my 190 Volants one snowy day and while the snow was a bit choppy, it was not a problem.  I had a conversation with a less strong skier on the chair, skiing a much shorter (guessing about 155 cm) Volks with a smaller turn radius.  This skier stated that she was having a lot of difficulty, point being that the smallish terrain irregularities that you might not consider a problem, and prefer to be left in place are in fact a problem for a lot of skiers.

 

Snow: The snow here is hard and it is cold.  The freshly groomed snow is easier for less skilled skiers, and the improvement (if you consider absence of terrain irregularities an improvement) lasts for a couple of hours.

post #42 of 57

How about the drunks and fools who ski into the grooming equipment when it is on the hill.  Way to much liability.

post #43 of 57

if you have ever walked on freshly groomed snow you will know why it generally isn't done in the daytime, it has to refreeze, like an ice skating zamboni shave, it needs a certain amount of time dependent on the temp and humidity plus sunlight.  also the entire section of the mountain needs to be shutdown for an hour or so to get everyone off.  it generally works well here in NC when they shutdown from 430 to 6pm, but i would guess they would need much more time for it to refreeze in the middle of the day unless it is cold and cloudy, then i guess everyone could take an hour and a half lunch break?

post #44 of 57

I heard that some if the issues with resorts on Native American owned and operated land is a spiritual attitude when it comes to snow making.  There was one place that snow making was not allowed because of the fact that it was reclaimed water being used for the process.  Native Americans saw that as spraying piss on the ancestors buried on that land. 

 

 

As for grooming mid day, yes ...  the fear of snow cat/skier collisions have made that less popular than days of old.  At the very least they close trails where snow cats are in use during operating hours.  Imagine if they rand the zamoni at the ice rink during free skates? 

 

Finally, packing down powder is something that is done not just to wreck a seemingly good powder ski experience for folks that don't have the resources or terrain for back country skiing.  Resorts pack down the powder to preserve the skiing surface for future use.  Early season, when it can bet warm again for several days or a week following the first good storm or two and melt most or all of the snow.  Powder melts a lot faster than hardpack/ice does.  It is also packed down early in the season so the base is safer to ski over.  Rocks, roots, and other debris under a foot of light powder is going to ruin your day.  They're doing you a favor when they groom down powder early in the season.

post #45 of 57
Here in MI if we get over an inch of fresh snow they'll close 1 run at a time to groom it flat. I'm told by the resorts that this is because of all the complaints from people who can't ski with all that "powder" getting in the way!
post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


The utility of mid-day grooming depends on snow condition and skier ability and equipment.  

 

Ability/equipment:  I was skiing my 190 Volants one snowy day and while the snow was a bit choppy, it was not a problem.  I had a conversation with a less strong skier on the chair, skiing a much shorter (guessing about 155 cm) Volks with a smaller turn radius.  This skier stated that she was having a lot of difficulty, point being that the smallish terrain irregularities that you might not consider a problem, and prefer to be left in place are in fact a problem for a lot of skiers.

 

Snow: The snow here is hard and it is cold.  The freshly groomed snow is easier for less skilled skiers, and the improvement (if you consider absence of terrain irregularities an improvement) lasts for a couple of hours.

 

I agree with your statement in bold above.  The area I'm familiar with that does mid-day grooming is Mt. Wachusett in Massachusetts, a very popular small-ish area near Boston.  After the day session and before the evening session, they groom out everything.  My point was that once they're done, everything is nice and smooth and velvety soft -- and then the masses ski it and you're left with something that has more irregularities then it did before they groomed it!

post #47 of 57

The groomer swath is a good thing. It keeps 70% of the skiers "contained".

post #48 of 57
On greens & some Blues I'd agree. On black's I'd disagree.
post #49 of 57

Snowmass had a 'noon groomer' last season when we were there. Like someone said, they groomed it the night before, but dropped the rope at 12.

post #50 of 57

Ski Roundtop here in PA used to close for "dinner" (we have 100% night skiing) back in the 70s / early-mid 80s and groom almost the whole "mountain". It doesn't seem necessary these days with the better grooming and equipment.

post #51 of 57

Breck used to do this on Peak 7, and, as horrified as I am to be typing this now, ~2005 me looooooooooved it. I was pretty intermediate at the time, and I still remember skiing behind one of those things on the freshly-groomed snow, carving huge turns and feeling like a superhero. In that light doing midday grooming on groomers that see almost entirely intermediate traffic seems like a great idea. I'm not really familiar with Kevin's point about the grooming staying nice for only about an hour before it goes to crap again, but maybe that's part of why Breck stopped.

post #52 of 57

Personally I think so much grooming is highly overated expensive and making skiing boring to me anyway. Skiing is a great sport. Grooming so much enables the unskilled to ski at higher speeds and on steeper terrain without ever attaining the higher skill levels to do that safely . The average skier larns how to pivot and skid  and then they think they can ski almost anything. For me making the same basic turn on a groomed slope all day gets boring real quick. Take a lesson do some training get some skills and find out what this sport is really about.

post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Fishman View Post

Personally I think so much grooming is highly overated expensive and making skiing boring to me anyway. Skiing is a great sport. Grooming so much enables the unskilled to ski at higher speeds and on steeper terrain without ever attaining the higher skill levels to do that safely . The average skier larns how to pivot and skid  and then they think they can ski almost anything. For me making the same basic turn on a groomed slope all day gets boring real quick. Take a lesson do some training get some skills and find out what this sport is really about.

I mostly agree but I think grooming has its place. Such as heavily traveled cat tracks and flat run outs and the rank beginner areas. Also early and late season to keep the snow cover consistent. A mogul field isn't much fun if the troughs are all dirt and rocks. Other than that keep the groomers in the garage. Grooming steep pitches only encourages people to go way too fast for everyone's safety in my opinion.
post #54 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Fishman View Post
 

Personally I think so much grooming is highly overated expensive and making skiing boring to me anyway. Skiing is a great sport. Grooming so much enables the unskilled to ski at higher speeds and on steeper terrain without ever attaining the higher skill levels to do that safely . The average skier larns how to pivot and skid  and then they think they can ski almost anything. For me making the same basic turn on a groomed slope all day gets boring real quick. Take a lesson do some training get some skills and find out what this sport is really about.

"Grooming so much enables the unskilled to ski at higher speeds and on steeper terrain without ever attaining the higher skill levels to do that safely . The average skier larns how to pivot and skid  and then they think they can ski almost anything. For me making the same basic turn on a groomed slope all day gets boring real quick. Take a lesson do some training get some skills and find out what this sport is really about."

 

Totally disagree with this broad generalization but agree that skiing is a great sport.  Overall I understand your broad prospective, however the assumption that grooming increases the incentive to ski at higher speeds and on steeper terrain is too general that it seems to misses the obvious point.  My guess is that the majority of intermediate skiers are interested in having a good time and being safe.  Aside of teenaged boys who are laden with testosterone, or the kids in race development programs, I have not met too many people, albeit that most skiers I know are in their mid-30's and early 40's, who want to ski faster and do this on steeper terrain.  Of course some people want to be challenged.   Some do not.  Some want to ski "steep terrain" some don't.  Some skid down this steep terrain, some don't.  People will always get hurt pushing themselves in different types of terrain.  But the only way to learn how to develop technique and to learn how to ski those steeper slopes is to try.    

 

In an era where the prevailing ski area management business model seems to be focused on building and attracting the family based revenue stream it seems to me that maintaining ideal conditions are paramount.  This has been reinforced by a few articles in the Journal and from looking at ideas about where to take my daughter this Feb.  When doing this research a lot of big named resorts promote their attention to grooming.  Overall, thinking about this client it seems like a high probability that a majority of these family skiers desire conditions that make them feel comfortable and safe even if it means skiing on trails where the conditions are less diverse, natural.  That's not to say that ungroomed trails don't have a place at a ski area.  Of course they do.  

 

When composing the thread most of my thoughts about the thread are based on observations from my local area which is "conveniently" located near NYC and Philly.  I like skiing and much to the dismay of my 8 year old our ski schedule/strategy focuses on early arrival and early departure.  I have been watching people get hurt skiing fast on good conditions and on bad conditions. I have seen people get hurt not skiing fast good conditions and bad.  Overall there have been some interesting answers in this thread

post #55 of 57

I have found no correlation that groomed slopes are safer. As a matter of fact skier or would be skiers tend to go faster on groomed surfaces making groomed hills more dangerous in theory.    

post #56 of 57

Here is my take on groomer vs ungroomed runs:

 

Once a skier makes a mistake and is heading straight down the fall line or closer to the FL than intended the acceleration and speed are greater on a groomed run then on a run that is ungroomed and has cut up snow. So even though on the ungroomed run an intermediate may have more control issues and get more tired out, and even though the groomer is easier to ski, it can get more dangerous more quickly on the groomer.

post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog View Post
 

I have found no correlation that groomed slopes are safer. As a matter of fact skier or would be skiers tend to go faster on groomed surfaces making groomed hills more dangerous in theory.    


Would be an interesting question/study for the patrollers.   

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