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Staffing Changes at EpicSki - Page 22

post #631 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelousMartha View Post
 

I'd comment but apparently I've not yet earned that right.  Sheesh.

no, "perspective"  Thumbs Up

post #632 of 867

One of the best ski days of my life was spent jet-lagged on a pair of non-tuned and inappropriate for the conditions skis trying to keep up with Phil, Tricia and some other friends, and then matching beers with them all for a few hours that evening. It certainly wasn't the skis or my condition that made it great; it was the instant camaraderie offered, like being with pals you've known for decades.

Phil & Tricia are very special, and Epic will be a less good place to hang out if they are less involved. 

post #633 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


Oh, it's a little weird.  Epic isn't just a corporate entity, nor is it a free-wheeling community.  It's a little of both.  We get in the habit of thinking of this place as a living room or something, so there's a sense of ownership.  We provide most of the content here, so in a sense it's our place. On the other hand, MTN owns the site and calls the shots.  It's emotionally ambiguous.  People get upset. It's understandable?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelousMartha View Post
 

I'd comment but apparently I've not yet earned that right.  Sheesh.

 

Martha, your viewpoint is just as valid as long time members. It's just different. And that's OK.

 

There are many members here that became much less emotionally invested when this place became a corporate entity. Personally I stopped caring about the website itself so much when Vail took over. I still feel the same about the people themselves. I could meet up with them at another forum, a bar or on the slopes and be just as content.

post #634 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


Oh, it's a little weird.  Epic isn't just a corporate entity, nor is it a free-wheeling community.  It's a little of both.  We get in the habit of thinking of this place as a living room or something, so there's a sense of ownership.  We provide most of the content here, so in a sense it's our place. On the other hand, MTN owns the site and calls the shots.  It's emotionally ambiguous.  People get upset. It's understandable?

not if you understood the site......  its member content driven.  No members, no content.  


I understand the site, Finn.  No members, no content.  But MTN owns the site and can do what they want.

 

We have power in that we can all leave.  They have power in that they can ban everyone or pull the plug, or change everything if they so desire — though that wouldn't make much business sense (in my opinion).

 

But it's not the same as in a corporate setting in which we're all employees.  We have a certain say in things, so we get to complain as much as we'd like.

post #635 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


I understand the site, Finn.  No members, no content.  But MTN owns the site and can do what they want.

 

We have power in that we can all leave.  They have power in that they can ban everyone or pull the plug, or change everything if they so desire — though that wouldn't make much business sense (in my opinion).

 

But it's not the same as in a corporate setting in which we're all employees.  We have a certain say in things, so we get to complain as much as we'd like.

'xactly! So thats why I don't see it as emotionally ambiguous. Its pretty cut and dry.  There are users which are the community and then there's mgt which is in control in general but is responsible for the success of the site.   Users aren't totally subject to managements whims.  For instance, they have no "right" to edit my content if it conforms to the rules. If they were in complete control, they could edit any post and control all content. That would never work.  They are also dependent on us to post and create content that drives revenue.   So there' a symbiotic relationship that in fact, requires cooperation.  Users carry no responsibility but without the cooperation, it doesn't work

 

NOTE: I didn't mean to imply that "you" didn't understand the site, I really inferred that it was "they" who didn't.  :D

post #636 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

not if you understood the site......  its member content driven.  No members, no content.  


Afraid I disagree with you on whether MarvelousMartha is "entitled" to comment.  I saw nothing in her(?) post that was flippant or disrespectful or out of line at all.

 

I do understand the desire on the part of long-timers to know more about what happened here and what the direction might be going forward.  Maybe we'll get that and maybe we won't, but I thought MM's comments were just fine.  

post #637 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 


Afraid I disagree with you on whether MarvelousMartha is "entitled" to comment.  I saw nothing in her(?) post that was flippant or disrespectful or out of line at all.

 

I do understand the desire on the part of long-timers to know more about what happened here and what the direction might be going forward.  Maybe we'll get that and maybe we won't, but I thought MM's comments were just fine.  

I didn't say she was and I didn't see anything flippant or disrespectful at all either .  I disagreed with her statement (I never said she didn't have the right to post her statement, i just felt she lacked perspective) that we as users had any right to ask why they were let go and what was the policy moving forward. I also welcomed her.  She is totally 100% welcome to post whatever she wants to. 

 

I just want to be clear here that you added the quoted word "Entitled" not me. She is totally entitled to her opinion.  I am entitled to voice mine as well and to feel her opinion lacked perspective.  

post #638 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

I didn't say she was and I didn't see anything flippant or disrespectful at all either .  I disagreed with her statement (and also did not say she didn't have the right to post her statement, i just felt she lacked perspective) that we as users had any right to ask why they were let go and what was the policy moving forward. I also welcomed her.  She is totally 100% welcome to post whatever she wants to. 

 

It just comes off a bit condescending and doesn't help in getting newbs to engage and interact. I know you didn't mean it that way...but that's how it looks.

post #639 of 867

Thanks @MattL  !  Not intended too.      

post #640 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelousMartha View Post
 

 

To me, the best way to honor them is to respect their privacy.  If anyone’s entitled to anything, Phil and Tricia are entitled to that.  And good turns.  Good powder turns at that.

 

I dont see anywhere in 22+ pages of posts where anyone has invaded their privacy.

 

The point here is protesting the site's apparently unilateral dismissing of two of the most respected people involved in Epic.

post #641 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


I understand the site, Finn.  No members, no content.  But MTN owns the site and can do what they want.

 

We have power in that we can all leave.  They have power in that they can ban everyone or pull the plug, or change everything if they so desire — though that wouldn't make much business sense (in my opinion).

 

But it's not the same as in a corporate setting in which we're all employees.  We have a certain say in things, so we get to complain as much as we'd like.

 

 

I haven't entirely followed this entire thread, but I will chime in with my experience in a similar situation. I was a Supermod on a  very popular lacrosse forum that was purchased from its creators by a popular lacrosse publication. It had the same kind of vibe as Epic, moderators were all players, generally well-respected, helpful, things ran pretty smoothly. Over a short period of time after the takeover, "corporate direction" drove away both moderators (mods, Super-mods, and Admins) as well as most, if not all of the members that really added to the character of the forum. I have gone back on occasion but the soul of the forum is gone.

post #642 of 867

This is like being at the neighborhood bar that has been under new management for a little over a year but operating same as always... until someone announces that the head bartender and favorite DJ have both been removed from their positions and are being replaced.  It's going to impact the locals and regulars quite a bit. The newer customers won't notice or care about it much at all though. 

post #643 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

This is like being at the neighborhood bar that has been under new management for a little over a year but operating same as always... until someone announces that the head bartender and favorite DJ have both been removed from their positions and are being replaced.  It's going to impact the locals and regulars quite a bit. The newer customers won't notice or care about it much at all though. 

Ya' know, about 65 million years ago all the dinosaurs were just hanging out BS's about all the things dinosaurs did and then BLAM! this giant rock came in and killed all the fun, the mice and other little creatures didn't seem to mind....  :D    (there is no real message here, it just struck me as ironic)

post #644 of 867
So, you're saying the smaller species will survive?
post #645 of 867
All I ask for is another crack at @Philpug's fabulous BBQ ribs, a few fingers of bourbon, a hot tub and the usual suspects. These are the ingredients of an epic gathering.
post #646 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 


I understand the site, Finn.  No members, no content.  But MTN owns the site and can do what they want.

 

We have power in that we can all leave.  They have power in that they can ban everyone or pull the plug, or change everything if they so desire — though that wouldn't make much business sense (in my opinion).

 

But it's not the same as in a corporate setting in which we're all employees.  We have a certain say in things, so we get to complain as much as we'd like.

 

 

I haven't entirely followed this entire thread, but I will chime in with my experience in a similar situation. I was a Supermod on a  very popular lacrosse forum that was purchased from its creators by a popular lacrosse publication. It had the same kind of vibe as Epic, moderators were all players, generally well-respected, helpful, things ran pretty smoothly. Over a short period of time after the takeover, "corporate direction" drove away both moderators (mods, Super-mods, and Admins) as well as most, if not all of the members that really added to the character of the forum. I have gone back on occasion but the soul of the forum is gone.


Could happen here — who knows?  Hasn't yet.  The current change may signal significant changes down the road, or it might mean not much. I prefer not to expect anything, good or bad.  

 

There isn't much we can do about MTN decisions, though we can complain.  We might all leave in protest, I guess.  It would take a while for them to build the place back up.

post #647 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

So, you're saying the smaller species will survive?

I am saying you just never know! One day you think the world revolves around you and that you are all that matters and then BOOOOOOM, its all over and then someone else thinks they are all that matters....  :D     The dinosaurs don't know what they were  missing and the little mammals don't know what they missed....   Its really ironic, the dinosaurs would have hated the new environment; no food, cold dark so the quick death was really a better outcome. 


Edited by Finndog - 11/2/15 at 9:55am
post #648 of 867

If there is parallel, ski related experience to what long term Epic posters are felling about this change, it may be how we all relate to changes in our home ski area. Each year, we make a significant payment for the right to use the facilities, and, we do tend to think of ourselves as "owners" and take a prideful sense of ownership. Sometimes, we even feel entitled as pass holders, but, we all know the truth, someone else rules. I'm ok with a newer member pointing out that we are not entitled to return to how it was before it all changed. Sometimes, we need to hear the outside challenge to group-think.  

 

My corporate experiences lead me to believe no matter what the event was that caused T&P to be severed from a leadership role, that sooner than later, they would be replaced with leadership both appointed and controlled by Mountain News. It seems rational that Vail/Mountain News will align the Epic Ski website to the corporate needs. I'm sure they cringe a little about this years Gathering being in Aspen. Tyler has told us that Heather is one person performing multi tasks, so we know they operate "lean". In corporate cost analysis thinking, why does Epic need 2 paid leaders? Dump salary and the bottom line looks better.

 

Let me admit, I'm still, mostly, in a state of denial about this whole mess. I don't like what the near future looks like for a site and group of people that I care about very much. To borrow a Les Miz line "tomorrow comes".

post #649 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

UMMM, welcome to the neighborhood. You are waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy  toooooooo new to comment on this. Sorry.  This isn't Walmart changing the brand of underwear they sell.  

Yes, we are owed an explanation. Its not subtle.  What is more concerning is the explanation of why as it pertains to "moving forward" I dont think P&T are asking for privacy. 

Didn't you just say the forum is a cult of personalities? Who are you to decide which personalities get to voice an opinion in that open forum?
post #650 of 867

Sorry but I can't see the text "T & P" or "P & T" without thinking if this and laughing. And, I know they would laugh along..

 

post #651 of 867
Ugghh this was already adressed.
post #652 of 867

From a personal perspective, of course I want to know what happened.

 

People keep looking at this from a community perspective, and I get that. But it's also an employment situation, and that has very different rules - actually, not just rules - laws. As an employer, you can't just go blabbing about what did or didn't happen to result in an employee no longer receiving a paycheck. Certainly not to people who don't even work at the company. And most certainly not in a public forum that absolutely anyone can read.

 

I am fully qualified to hope that Phil and Tricia are moving on to bigger and better things, and as a friend, wish them the best and hope they weren't screwed by an employer. I am somewhat qualified to render opinions on how their lack of Epicski employment will impact the site. But what I don't have, and SHOULDN'T have, is any insight into how they ended up no longer employed by EpicSki.

 

So, be concerned about Phil and Tricia as friends. Be upset at the impact to the site. But seriously, you can't expect an employer to publicly announce the circumstances under which an employee is no longer employed. I mean, you can expect it all you want - but it'll be a cold day in hell, or a criminally ignorant employer.

post #653 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

Ugghh this was already adressed.

Except you never used the word "perspective" and did say outright that she was too new to comment. Maybe comprehend your own words better?

Uggggh is right.
post #654 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post


Except you never used the word "perspective" and did say outright that she was too new to comment. Maybe comprehend your own words better?

Uggggh is right.

Joe, you need to keep reading, I certainly did.^631 And you need to go back and read my post again. the post lacks perspective. the too new to comment was not that she couldnt post, there are a ton of posts from newer members.   Maybe she was simply refrerring to the "why" they dont work here anymore but people aren't asking that; the are asking why the change. I don't read the initial statement from Mtn News as anything nefarious; they even hope P&T continue to post.   So long time members here DO have a right to ask.  Again, maybe it was just worded poorly but the taste left in many peoples mouth is major change is coming., You dont see mtn news saying all will remain the same and we will just have new people doing the same. 

 

 

"I’m surprised at the subtle entitlement sentiment permeating this thread.  People feel owed an explanation about the change that The Mother Ship announced. "

 

 


Edited by Finndog - 11/2/15 at 10:56am
post #655 of 867

All we have is now. Phil and Trish are still here.  It is their choice how often they post. WE are the community, not MTN.  If P&T choose to participate in this community then nothing much has changed.

 

I'll deal with tomorrow, tomorrow.

post #656 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
 

If there is parallel, ski related experience to what long term Epic posters are felling about this change, it may be how we all relate to changes in our home ski area. Each year, we make a significant payment for the right to use the facilities, and, we do tend to think of ourselves as "owners" and take a prideful sense of ownership. Sometimes, we even feel entitled as pass holders, but, we all know the truth, someone else rules. I'm ok with a newer member pointing out that we are not entitled to return to how it was before it all changed. Sometimes, we need to hear the outside challenge to group-think.  

 

My corporate experiences lead me to believe no matter what the event was that caused T&P to be severed from a leadership role, that sooner than later, they would be replaced with leadership both appointed and controlled by Mountain News. It seems rational that Vail/Mountain News will align the Epic Ski website to the corporate needs. I'm sure they cringe a little about this years Gathering being in Aspen. Tyler has told us that Heather is one person performing multi tasks, so we know they operate "lean". In corporate cost analysis thinking, why does Epic need 2 paid leaders? Dump salary and the bottom line looks better.

 

Let me admit, I'm still, mostly, in a state of denial about this whole mess. I don't like what the near future looks like for a site and group of people that I care about very much. To borrow a Les Miz line "tomorrow comes".

 

And therein lies the problem. Corporate accountants like to look at how to lean operations out and reduce cost, assuming the savings go directly to bottom-line. What often isn't considered in those analyses are the intangible impacts and how those may affect bottom-line. In this case, the 'human' element of their departure (assuming MTN made the decision to cut them and they didn't just leave) has a meaningful impact that should be considered in the equation when looking at reducing cost. Will our readership/number of clicks be harmed? Will our advertisers demand better ad rates if we don't have as much readership? Will our reputation be harmed by the negative impact to the community in whole? Will our brand (Epicski, not Vail) be damaged by a soiled relationship with the Epic community and how does that impact our overall readership/ad sales? Can this have further repercussions through On The Snow or other VR assets?

 

I really wonder how well thought out a 'cost reduction measure' for this decision (again, assuming MTN initiated the change) was. Did management fully vet this within their organization or was it truly some bean-counter that saw this as a way to cut expenses? Obviously, we will likely never know but it begs the question of what the future may hold for this site. It's a little reminiscent of the old Powder forums when they screwed things up and the entire group migrated to TGR's website. It doesn't take much to drive away customers but it takes one hell of a lot more to bring them back or replace them anew. 

post #657 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
 

If there is parallel, ski related experience to what long term Epic posters are felling about this change, it may be how we all relate to changes in our home ski area. Each year, we make a significant payment for the right to use the facilities, and, we do tend to think of ourselves as "owners" and take a prideful sense of ownership. Sometimes, we even feel entitled as pass holders, but, we all know the truth, someone else rules. I'm ok with a newer member pointing out that we are not entitled to return to how it was before it all changed. Sometimes, we need to hear the outside challenge to group-think.  

 

My corporate experiences lead me to believe no matter what the event was that caused T&P to be severed from a leadership role, that sooner than later, they would be replaced with leadership both appointed and controlled by Mountain News. It seems rational that Vail/Mountain News will align the Epic Ski website to the corporate needs. I'm sure they cringe a little about this years Gathering being in Aspen. Tyler has told us that Heather is one person performing multi tasks, so we know they operate "lean". In corporate cost analysis thinking, why does Epic need 2 paid leaders? Dump salary and the bottom line looks better.

 

Let me admit, I'm still, mostly, in a state of denial about this whole mess. I don't like what the near future looks like for a site and group of people that I care about very much. To borrow a Les Miz line "tomorrow comes".

 

And therein lies the problem. Corporate accountants like to look at how to lean operations out and reduce cost, assuming the savings go directly to bottom-line. What often isn't considered in those analyses are the intangible impacts and how those may affect bottom-line. In this case, the 'human' element of their departure (assuming MTN made the decision to cut them and they didn't just leave) has a meaningful impact that should be considered in the equation when looking at reducing cost. Will our readership/number of clicks be harmed? Will our advertisers demand better ad rates if we don't have as much readership? Will our reputation be harmed by the negative impact to the community in whole? Will our brand (Epicski, not Vail) be damaged by a soiled relationship with the Epic community and how does that impact our overall readership/ad sales? Can this have further repercussions through On The Snow or other VR assets?

 

I really wonder how well thought out a 'cost reduction measure' for this decision (again, assuming MTN initiated the change) was. Did management fully vet this within their organization or was it truly some bean-counter that saw this as a way to cut expenses? Obviously, we will likely never know but it begs the question of what the future may hold for this site. It's a little reminiscent of the old Powder forums when they screwed things up and the entire group migrated to TGR's website. It doesn't take much to drive away customers but it takes one hell of a lot more to bring them back or replace them anew. 

 

I never got the impression that EpicSki drives any good will toward Vail Resorts - heck, usually it feels like the opposite - and I have no idea what Phil and Tricia were paid, but I doubt the whole EpicSki site supports two full-time salaries. (I also doubt that's what they were paid.)

 

I just don't think EpicSki ever was or ever will be a cash cow or even a business that is intrinsically financially viable. It provides value to the community, but to the owners? It's like the dilemma with Facebook and Twitter - the consumers don't help the bottom line. Facebook and Twitter solve that problem by monetizing the user data - would you be willing to pay a membership fee or allow your user data to be aggregated and sold to keep the site running?

post #658 of 867
Supporters used to pay a fee. Just saying. Plus, I'm sure there was also a time that staff, moderators, etc. didn't get paid.
post #659 of 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
 Tyler has told us that Heather is one person performing multi tasks, so we know they operate "lean". In corporate cost analysis thinking, why does Epic need 2 paid leaders? Dump salary and the bottom line looks better.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
 

 

And therein lies the problem. Corporate accountants like to look at how to lean operations out and reduce cost, assuming the savings go directly to bottom-line. What often isn't considered in those analyses are the intangible impacts and how those may affect bottom-line. In this case, the 'human' element of their departure (assuming MTN made the decision to cut them and they didn't just leave) has a meaningful impact that should be considered in the equation when looking at reducing cost. Will our readership/number of clicks be harmed? Will our advertisers demand better ad rates if we don't have as much readership? Will our reputation be harmed by the negative impact to the community in whole? Will our brand (Epicski, not Vail) be damaged by a soiled relationship with the Epic community and how does that impact our overall readership/ad sales? Can this have further repercussions through On The Snow or other VR assets?

 

 

 

What they see is three people being paid to work and the one person they see under their roof has bandwidth available to take over some more duties.  So, over to H goes P&T's tasks, but not P&T's costs.  Seems like a win for them.  What isn't fully understood is the site operations run via more of a gig economy rather than a 9-5 brick and mortar office work routine.  So, one day there may be a spitstorm or two that require twelve hours plus of monitoring then everything can be pretty hands off for a couple days.  Then, suddenly at 11pm on Sunday night an emergency can arise dragging the admin(s) right back in to the fire for hours, especially given the global reach if the site these days.

 

I also understand that there might not be sufficient revenues to staff that kind of coverage full time based on my perception of "active" site traffic versus bots and ghost logins floating around not producing much in the way of actual ad exposures.

post #660 of 867
I wouldn't be surprised to see the EpicSki name die off completely in the next year or two. It makes sense to fold this content under the OTS domain name. It is odd that the forum section on OTS links to EpicSki "an OTS community." Pretty easy to change out that banner.
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