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Top of turn speed control - Page 5

post #121 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Again, if your goal is racing then you need to optimize the acceleration. If your goal is recreational skiing then more often then not you are mitigating it. HUGE tactical difference.

It's obvious that gravity can accelerate you more in the fall line then out of it. If you are racing then you find ways to optimize that. With recreational skiing we generally find ways to prevent the fall line section of the turn from accelerating us too much. We mitigate it. It's a completely different set of tactics. So it matters in the discussion whether you are discussing racing or not.

Also in racing you are forced to follow a course which is by design trying to force you to stay out of the fall line, so the whole thing in racing is how to stay in the fall line as much as possible with the least amount of speed bleed in order to do so and the shortest line to do so. In recreational skiing we can take whatever line we want, and generally speaking we will be trying to keep our speed just a little bit or a lot under control. That means staying out of the fall line actually and using speed bleed and if we have room, rounder turns in order to shape the turns with brushing and staying out of the fall line. Totally different tactics.

Rich in the article Beni was slower then Ted. Ask your self why that approach was slower then you can see why longer periods of brushing will result in slower skiing then otherwise. It can be taken much further for recreational skiers of course. Beni was still trying to get carving around the gate in the fall line. His time was lost because he spent too much time not carving. Ted did his braking and then got back to carving sooner before getting to the fall line.

A rec skier can brush continually for even more speed loss then that. A rec skier can try to stay out of the fall line rather then pivoting into it as these racers did with their stivots. What I said about beni is relevant if you look at why he was slower then Ted

 I agree to the differences you identify between free skiing and racing regarding line and speed control. While free skiers have more freedom and choice, the skill set transfer is always considered racing dominant.

 

I hear you regarding Raich and admit my points were somewhat collateral to yours.

 

As a matter of fact, Shiffrin may very well have lost Soelden simply due to not carving as much of the turn as Brignone similarly as Raich compared to Ligity. 

 

I have been aware of Ligity's self proclaimed advantage of starting the carve sooner and ending it later which makes perfect sense to me. It is also a fun way to free ski groomers keeping your transition marks in your tracks as short as, sometimes even shorter than the length of the ski itself. 

post #122 of 143
I think stating thing like what are rec skiers goals presumes a bit too much. Especially for those at the top levels. Brushed turns are a technical option but hardly can be represented as how everyone strives to ski.
post #123 of 143

most people are not technically proficient enough to brush the top of their turns anyway JASP. 

post #124 of 143
That pretty cruel BTS.
post #125 of 143

cruel?  No I am not being cruel.  I am just making an honest observation.  I do not see it on the mountain very often...very rarely..and many ski instructors I know are not doing it, and even discussing it sends them into fits...so...honestly..its not a technique that is mastered by many.  There is no cruel intention here.  Just honest observation.   Most people are not ever striving to ski with high-C brushing and don't even know how.  That is the honest truth.  I say these things in hope that some of them will be inspired to inquire further and learn more about it.  This is opposite of cruelty my friend.

post #126 of 143
So you actually have observed most recreational skiers? That's millions of folks across the world. Call me skeptical but I doubt it.
post #127 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So you actually have observed most recreational skiers? That's millions of folks across the world. Call me skeptical but I doubt it.

 

One doesn't need to observe most recreational skiers to make a valid and relatively accurate observation. Google "sample size" for the equations.

post #128 of 143
67 million, that's alot of skiers.
post #129 of 143
Opinions are one thing but claiming those opinions to be more than that is a stretch. I'm out. Call everyone whatever you please.
post #130 of 143

There is a subset of recreational skiers that strive to ski arc-2-arc whenever and wherever they are able to, with edges always engaged and tracks from right edge and left edge over-lapping at transition.   This subset rarely finds occasion to brush the top part of the turn, but rare is not never.

post #131 of 143
The subset of recreational skiers that has the ability to engage during the high C is a small percentage. Those that have the knowledge and skill to brush the high C is but a tiny fraction of that.
post #132 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

There is a subset of recreational skiers that [...] with edges always engaged [...]

I keep all edges always engaged - that puts me in all subsets of skiers simultaneously :eek

 

:rotflmao: 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post
 
The subset of recreational skiers that has the ability to engage during the high C is a small percentage. Those that have the knowledge and skill to brush the high C is but a tiny fraction of that.

 

I've seen some. Do they do that to cover their tracks or what?

 

:duel:

post #133 of 143
Thread Starter 

This is an interesting picture in the context. It is from a WC level skier around 2009.

 

post #134 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

This is an interesting picture in the context. It is from a WC level skier around 2009.

 

what's the ski attack angle?

post #135 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

what's the ski attack angle?

I'm not quite sure. I didn't make a note of that when I added this to my picture archive. I suspect that it is something similar to steering angle though

post #136 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

what's the ski attack angle?

I'm not quite sure. I didn't make a note of that when I added this to my picture archive. I suspect that it is something similar to steering angle though


so this would show some brushing in the high-c and skis parallel throughout ? assuming 50% is the fall line...

post #137 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


so this would show some brushing in the high-c and skis parallel throughout ? assuming 50% is the fall line...

Parallel? I see that they are diverging early and converging later, which is quite common to see just by looking as well. Not a lot, but its there.

post #138 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


so this would show some brushing in the high-c and skis parallel throughout ? assuming 50% is the fall line...

Parallel? I see that they are diverging early and converging later, which is quite common to see just by looking as well. Not a lot, but its there.


the divergence is very small, more like his particular movement pattern, I don't know if it represents any special technique or something..?

post #139 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


the divergence is very small, more like his particular movement pattern, I don't know if it represents any special technique or something..?

I think it is quite normal. The outside ski is a bit more edged and has more pressure, hence it turns more. In order for both skis to carve smoothly you need to start with some divergence and end with some convergence.

post #140 of 143

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.  Just remember skiing an apex with long outside leg and inside boot near your groin.  If  you transitioned with your skis that far apart on the snow things would work so well would they?  Diverge towards apex, converge after apex is the norm.

post #141 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.  

seeing as it took me like 3 posts... thank you for that assessment !!!

 

:o

post #142 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

well I think this is where you're missing it.  First...a carving ski is being diverted constantly.  that's what causes it to carve. The ski bends, it gets pressure...what is the pressure?  Its snow reaction force pushing on it and it pushes the ski and the skier on a  curved, carved path.  That is what carving actually is.  Carving does not happen without bending the shovel into steering angle and getting a snow reaction force to diverge from the "current direction".  The current direction is always a straight line.  curved paths happen because of continually being diverted one moment to the next

Would you say the above is similar to when one says after demoing a ski, "the tips seem a little stiff for me" or, "I need more ski than this floppy noodle". Either too much deflection or not enough? When Svindal praised Head recently for the great ski to help him win?

Could the whole concept be summarrized as "twist then tip or tip then twist?" There are big differences it seems, based on what you are trying to do (intent).

Great thread and info, btw. Thanks
post #143 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I think speed control in the top of the arc comes down to one thing, edge engagement with a wider steering angle. I.e. brushing.

How to go about doing that does depend on whether you are talking about racing or recreational skiing, or at the very least, lets say it depends on tactics.

With racing, they need to win. This may very well mean braking hard at some point in order to set themselves up to go faster before or after that. This is more of a jerky fast-slow-fast-slow approach, but if it results in faster course time then so be it. Generally they will be minimizing the amount of time they are the brakes, allowing gravity maximum opportunity to accelerate them.
......

Also, this speed control requires pressure under the skis. So being light through float is not necessarily always the answer. Perhaps it might be for a stivot or super-stivot, but even Needles commented that the skier has to have the outside ski pressured before doing the super stivot...so I'm not so sure that being light through float really buys much when speed control is the goal. I think you want to stay as heavy as you can get away with from the first moment the edge is engaged.

Edut: sorry, I misread your post. You covered it.
Edited by Tip Ripply - 12/13/15 at 12:38pm
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