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edge tuning by hand vs machine - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Are you sure you are not confusing a burred edge with a clean one?   Maybe you just never did a good job by hand?


As I said I don't claim to be a great/good tuner so sure it could just be my job. But... coming from my racer, when her ski is through Snowglide she can tell before skiing its THAT much sharper and it lasts longer. Another data point - in a regional race in a different age group than my daughter where the GS course is literally boiler plate (it flashed freeze when temp drop from +3-5degC to -25degC overnight), the results were... the top racers all had their skis tuned via machine. One the the "usual top 5" racers in this group all season was 3-5 seconds behind; on a 40-50sec course.

Not saying machine is better but just sharing what I experienced and heard. And of course, there's the reality of time savings...


Yea, you need the sharpest for a race course.  I know some racers prefer a hanger on their base edges from the side work. 

 

I hope you realize I was just playing with you here.  No dissing at all.  You need to do what works for your little racer. 

post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

A-man, by wrong set up it has to do with the direction of the cut, with machine tooling and even by hand a cut into the edge should have leave little or no hanging burr. Modern tooling is sharpened with abrasive wheels and no honing is required to further refine the edge.

However drawing off the edge does leave a hanging burr as metal is smeared and dragged (there is another term for this but it gets the idea across) off the edge as the metal is cut.

With files, stones and diamonds as we cut in line with the edge smearing and dragging can occur slightly in both directions and may leave a burr.

So the best method not to leave a hanging burr is to cut into the edge anything else leaves you at risk.

BTW you likely tune better than I, so this is a bit of additional info for your arsenal and hope it helps.

Cheers,

i AM BAFFLED...  CUT INTO THE EDGE????


Into or onto basically has the same meaning.

 

There is a good reference that I wish I could find and attach as it would clear up a lot of things.

 

Let me try this way.

 

Sharpen a chisel, heel to edge (off) for direction of stoning leaves a burr, edge to heel (on or into) doesn't.  Side to side may.  Same applies for edges.


I get it.  I grew up on a farm and know how to sharpen a hoe.  Or pretty much anything else.  The disc spins, so you are saying only one side of the disc hits the edge, or both?  If both hit the edge, then one side is coming and one side is going.  Question is which hits the edge last?  When you use the machine do you make sure the passes on each edge are the same and not opposite?

One side will make a hanger.  The other side should remove a hanger.  Is that not correct?  

 

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

 

I think that people are confusing a side edge hanging burr with a sharp edge.  When people are on ice it has been found that a burr hanging off the side edge can cause quicker engagement and provide some grip at lower skier edge angles.  For a race course or for really icy conditions this may be a good option. 

 

So sharp is sharp, and a sharp burr is another edge all together.  

post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
So you are saying you can't do a hand tune as sharp as the disc grinder?   Maybe you need to hone your skills!  :beercheer:
 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sure it could be my skills are not good, but lets say I have a little bit of experiences with doing these things, so lets assume people in charge of top WC racers know at least a bit about this, and most of them hate to use these machines, but still do use them regularly as they give much sharper edges then hand tunning. And to avoid further "confussion", they use these machines because of exactly this reason, not because it's easier or faster or I don't know what else, but because they get sharper edges this way. While I totally agree my skills might have sucked, before when I was still doing this, and they might suck especially today, when I'm almost 15 years out of World cup business, I seriously doubt everyone else in WC have crappy hand tunning skills ;)
PS: To use one of your samples from before. Food is salted or not salted. True, and as soon as you add 1 single grain of salt, it's salted. But please don't say, it's same thing if you put one pinch of salt or 3 table spoons of salt. Same goes with sharpness... it's not like sharp or not sharp, but it's sharp, it's sharper, and it's really bad injected snow sharp :)

post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
So you are saying you can't do a hand tune as sharp as the disc grinder?   Maybe you need to hone your skills!  :beercheer:
 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sure it could be my skills are not good, but lets say I have a little bit of experiences with doing these things, so lets assume people in charge of top WC racers know at least a bit about this, and most of them hate to use these machines, but still do use them regularly as they give much sharper edges then hand tunning. And to avoid further "confussion", they use these machines because of exactly this reason, not because it's easier or faster or I don't know what else, but because they get sharper edges this way. While I totally agree my skills might have sucked, before when I was still doing this, and they might suck especially today, when I'm almost 15 years out of World cup business, I seriously doubt everyone else in WC have crappy hand tunning skills ;)
PS: To use one of your samples from before. Food is salted or not salted. True, and as soon as you add 1 single grain of salt, it's salted. But please don't say, it's same thing if you put one pinch of salt or 3 table spoons of salt. Same goes with sharpness... it's not like sharp or not sharp, but it's sharp, it's sharper, and it's really bad injected snow sharp :)


Yes, see my post No. 32 above.  I don't doubt your experience.  Thing is does one want a hanging burred ice race tune?   Most people won't like that type of tune.  I like a ski that will only engage when the ski angle is higher.  Maybe not so hot for carving ice, but much funner to ski. 

post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

 

 

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

 

Jacques, forget about burrs.    This is not about burrs.      This is about what 'correct geometry' means in the real world of things. 

Here is a thought experiment.

Use your hand-sharpening skills to sharpen a pencil as sharp as you can possibly get it.     Then draw a point or a line on a piece of paper.    

Now print a one-dot-wide line using a printer.     Which line is finer?    The printer one, yes?    

But wait,  how is that possible if the pencil point is "coming together with the correct geometry"?      



 

post #36 of 55
Ideally Jacques, only allow one edge of the disk to touch very lightly as it turns onto the edge. Less heat, and reduces the chance of smear....better edge.
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

A-man, by wrong set up it has to do with the direction of the cut, with machine tooling and even by hand a cut into the edge should have leave little or no hanging burr. Modern tooling is sharpened with abrasive wheels and no honing is required to further refine the edge.


However drawing off the edge does leave a hanging burr as metal is smeared and dragged (there is another term for this but it gets the idea across) off the edge as the metal is cut.


With files, stones and diamonds as we cut in line with the edge smearing and dragging can occur slightly in both directions and may leave a burr.


So the best method not to leave a hanging burr is to cut into the edge anything else leaves you at risk.


BTW you likely tune better than I, so this is a bit of additional info for your arsenal and hope it helps.


Cheers,
i AM BAFFLED...  CUT INTO THE EDGE????


Into or onto basically has the same meaning.

There is a good reference that I wish I could find and attach as it would clear up a lot of things.

Let me try this way.

Sharpen a chisel, heel to edge (off) for direction of stoning leaves a burr, edge to heel (on or into) doesn't.  Side to side may.  Same applies for edges.


I get it.  I grew up on a farm and know how to sharpen a hoe.  Or pretty much anything else.  The disc spins, so you are saying only one side of the disc hits the edge, or both?  If both hit the edge, then one side is coming and one side is going.  Question is which hits the edge last?  When you use the machine do you make sure the passes on each edge are the same and not opposite?
One side will make a hanger.  The other side should remove a hanger.  Is that not correct?  

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

I think that people are confusing a side edge hanging burr with a sharp edge.  When people are on ice it has been found that a burr hanging off the side edge can cause quicker engagement and provide some grip at lower skier edge angles.  For a race course or for really icy conditions this may be a good option. 

So sharp is sharp, and a sharp burr is another edge all together.  

Next lesson. Any burr is bad. They break uncontrolled causing more damage to the edges leading extremely dull edges and to more sharpening with reduced lifespan of the edge. Additionally as the burr is not predictable for edge to edge transitions it can lead to a very uncontrollable ski.

The only exception to this is a scraper as the edge is the burr. The ultra fine edge of the burr is actually the cutting edge used only in one direction. But they require lots of maintenance to keep in good condition.
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

I understood you.    Cut towards the topsheet of the ski.

I don't think it makes any difference on a side edge of a ski. either way you are removing metal on the edgepoint and a hanging bur is going to be created. 

 

Honestly, there is only 1 way to sharpen a side edge and I submit..NO way to avoid a hanging burr. Machined or hand tuned. pushing , pulling. there is no physical way to sharpen the edge up towards the topsheet and the goal is to have a sharp point where the base edge meets the side edge.  You are going to get a hanging burr there no matter how this is accomplished.

post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

 

 

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

 

Jacques, forget about burrs.    This is not about burrs.      This is about what 'correct geometry' means in the real world of things. 

Here is a thought experiment.

Use your hand-sharpening skills to sharpen a pencil as sharp as you can possibly get it.     Then draw a point or a line on a piece of paper.    

Now print a one-dot-wide line using a printer.     Which line is finer?    The printer one, yes?    

But wait,  how is that possible if the pencil point is "coming together with the correct geometry"?      



 

 


This pencil deal has no relation to me whatsoever.

post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Ideally Jacques, only allow one edge of the disk to touch very lightly as it turns onto the edge. Less heat, and reduces the chance of smear....better edge.


So you are saying to use the disc machine to be sure there is no burr hanging off the side edge?   Seems to defeat the ice tune that should have a hanger.

post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


So you are saying to use the disc machine to be sure there is no burr hanging off the side edge?   Seems to defeat the ice tune that should have a hanger.

Hanging burr makes skis ski even worse..............but particularly on ice. 

 

 

If you need a hanging burr to ski on ice....you need a technique adjustment.  

post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


So you are saying to use the disc machine to be sure there is no burr hanging off the side edge?   Seems to defeat the ice tune that should have a hanger.

Hanging burr makes skis ski even worse..............but particularly on ice. 

 

 

If you need a hanging burr to ski on ice....you need a technique adjustment.  


Yea, okay.   I read about this somewhere.  Can't find it now.  The deal was to leave a hanger to get better grip on ice or a injected race course.  Obviously a hanger will be noticed more the harder the "snow" is.   I still say sharp is sharp and one cannot make sharp sharper.   Be good Atomic.

post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

 

 

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

 

Jacques, forget about burrs.    This is not about burrs.      This is about what 'correct geometry' means in the real world of things. 

Here is a thought experiment.

Use your hand-sharpening skills to sharpen a pencil as sharp as you can possibly get it.     Then draw a point or a line on a piece of paper.    

Now print a one-dot-wide line using a printer.     Which line is finer?    The printer one, yes?    

But wait,  how is that possible if the pencil point is "coming together with the correct geometry"?      

 

This pencil deal has no relation to me whatsoever.

 

Ah, you're choosing not to notice that the metal edges on hand sharpened skis are just as dull as that pencil.

post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

 

 

I fail to see how a ski edge can be made sharper than sharp.  It the two points come together with correct geometry the point of the edge should be sharp.  After that it's about angles.

 

Jacques, forget about burrs.    This is not about burrs.      This is about what 'correct geometry' means in the real world of things. 

Here is a thought experiment.

Use your hand-sharpening skills to sharpen a pencil as sharp as you can possibly get it.     Then draw a point or a line on a piece of paper.    

Now print a one-dot-wide line using a printer.     Which line is finer?    The printer one, yes?    

But wait,  how is that possible if the pencil point is "coming together with the correct geometry"?      

 

This pencil deal has no relation to me whatsoever.

 

Ah, you're choosing not to notice that the metal edges on hand sharpened skis are just as dull as that pencil.


Yes, that is my choice.  I don't use pencils.  I use pens.  I find my edges plenty sharp.  I still fail to see any relationship between a pencil tip and a ski edge.  I just don't get it.

Dream on!

post #45 of 55

The final truth is that it depends on the operator.  Be it machine or hand sharpened, it requires skill and training to do it correctly.  Great operator, great results, poor operator poor results.

 

In a twisted manner I understand were A-man is coming from as most machine tuning equipment is set incorrectly and tuners are not machinist or tool and die makers and therefore really don't understand the true method of tool sharpening.  Therefore as result are incorrectly set up from the get go and require hand touch ups for an operator initiated error.  Well tune skis with the modern hand sharpening equipment makes it relatively simple not to screw it up.  Still the best tunes in hand method still require great skill for the best results.  However, when you do get a ski tuned correctly on machine, there is no comparison in IMHO, but I suspect they are not that common.    (I've been lucky enough not to see a bad one.)

 

@Jacques Be careful what your read on the Internet, there is a lot of miss information out there, edges with burrs on ice  :nono:.

 

 

 BTW I'd ski A-mans hand tunes any day as he understands tunes and the advantages better than I.

 

Cheers
 

post #46 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

The final truth is that it depends on the operator.  Be it machine or hand sharpened, it requires skill and training to do it correctly.  Great operator, great results, poor operator poor results.

 

In a twisted manner I understand were A-man is coming from as most machine tuning equipment is set incorrectly and tuners are not machinist or tool and die makers and therefore really don't understand the true method of tool sharpening.  Therefore as result are incorrectly set up from the get go and require hand touch ups for an operator initiated error.  Well tune skis with the modern hand sharpening equipment makes it relatively simple not to screw it up.  Still the best tunes in hand method still require great skill for the best results.  However, when you do get a ski tuned correctly on machine, there is no comparison in IMHO, but I suspect they are not that common.    (I've been lucky enough not to see a bad one.)

 

@Jacques Be careful what your read on the Internet, there is a lot of miss information out there, edges with burrs on ice  :nono:.

 

 

 BTW I'd ski A-mans hand tunes any day as he understands tunes and the advantages better than I.

 

Cheers
 

This is from Pez's Winter Blog.  

 

3. Some professional service technicians will purposely leave a very slight curl on the base side for men’s events on injected snow.

post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

This is from Pez's Winter Blog.  

 

3. Some professional service technicians will purposely leave a very slight curl on the base side for men’s events on injected snow.

Well the World Cup guys are on a different plane of existence. And I would emphasize the word "SLIGHT"

post #48 of 55

That curl will act as a brake.

post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

That curl will act as a brake.

Also, it'll act like a tiny rudder the length of the ski and, depending on the extent of the curl, make the ski very directional and much harder to change directions.  I can't imagine why anyone would want that effect and the harder the surface the more prevalent it'll be.

 

I tease Ole Jacques every year about side edge disk grinders and it's taken me a few years to catch on to what he's been doing but I've finally figured it out.  He secretly has been using one for years but he doesn't want anyone to know, which is why he strongly promotes hand tuning.  

 

Sorry Jacques but I now have in my possession the ultra top secret micro film of you using your ceramic disk edge grinder.  But, fear not, as your secret is safe with me.  I have it locked away along with my super duper decoder ring and super secret JFK files.  The only way anyone will ever see it, is if they first know, the super, secret squirrel, handshake. ;)

post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Also, it'll act like a tiny rudder the length of the ski and, depending on the extent of the curl, make the ski very directional and much harder to change directions.  I can't imagine why anyone would want that effect and the harder the surface the more prevalent it'll be.

 

I tease Ole Jacques every year about side edge disk grinders and it's taken me a few years to catch on to what he's been doing but I've finally figured it out.  He secretly has been using one for years but he doesn't want anyone to know, which is why he strongly promotes hand tuning.  

 

Sorry Jacques but I now have in my possession the ultra top secret micro film of you using your ceramic disk edge grinder.  But, fear not, as your secret is safe with me.  I have it locked away along with my super duper decoder ring and super secret JFK files.  The only way anyone will ever see it, is if they first know, the super, secret squirrel, handshake. ;)

Great minds think alike!

 

Thumbs Up

post #51 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

That curl will act as a brake.

Also, it'll act like a tiny rudder the length of the ski and, depending on the extent of the curl, make the ski very directional and much harder to change directions.  I can't imagine why anyone would want that effect and the harder the surface the more prevalent it'll be.

 

I tease Ole Jacques every year about side edge disk grinders and it's taken me a few years to catch on to what he's been doing but I've finally figured it out.  He secretly has been using one for years but he doesn't want anyone to know, which is why he strongly promotes hand tuning.  

 

Sorry Jacques but I now have in my possession the ultra top secret micro film of you using your ceramic disk edge grinder.  But, fear not, as your secret is safe with me.  I have it locked away along with my super duper decoder ring and super secret JFK files.  The only way anyone will ever see it, is if they first know, the super, secret squirrel, handshake. ;)


OMG!  I love it!  You funny!

post #52 of 55

Guys, jokes aside - did anyone buy the Toko Edge Tuner Evo?

I has come down in price slighlty (now available for 399 EUR) and I am investigating possible purchase.

I am realy a novice at edge sharpening, but in the Toko promotional videos it seems super easy.

Any actual impressions with it?

post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuikiz View Post
 

Guys, jokes aside - did anyone buy the Toko Edge Tuner Evo?

I has come down in price slighlty (now available for 399 EUR) and I am investigating possible purchase.

I am realy a novice at edge sharpening, but in the Toko promotional videos it seems super easy.

Any actual impressions with it?


What has Toko come to?  I don't believe it.  :eek

post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuikiz View Post

Guys, jokes aside - did anyone buy the Toko Edge Tuner Evo?
I has come down in price slighlty (now available for 399 EUR) and I am investigating possible purchase.
I am realy a novice at edge sharpening, but in the Toko promotional videos it seems super easy.
Any actual impressions with it?
Never seen or heard of anyone using it. Sorry. Is it even offered in 120v US power?
post #55 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Never seen or heard of anyone using it. Sorry. Is it even offered in 120v US power?

It only works on 220v Euro power. It is basically a small belt sander. Grinds inline with the edge, not across the edge like the more expensive diamond disk grinders.
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