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Which Bindings? Demo vs Normal

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

I'm looking to get some bindings for new skis.  I'm looking at the Salomon Z12 or Z10 vs Look PX 12 Demo Ski Bindings... The main reason I'm thinking demo bindings is because new boots may be bought in the future, so I'd hate to have to remount shortly after mounting them.  Do normal bindings adjust slightly to accommodate changes in sole length or is it just better to get demo bindings?

 

Thanks

post #2 of 24

Most bindings have 10-20mm of trade (except Pivots/FKS's), enough for one boot size up or down. If you are starting with the right boot, this should not be an issue. Salomon Sth2 bindings have about 25mm of travel, enough for 3 boot sizes, which I hope you don't need. IF thinking about a demo binding, the Tyrolia Attack13 and the Marker Griffon ski just like their retail counterpart but the Look will really give a disconnect between the skier and the ski. 

post #3 of 24

@Philpug  -- do Pivots/FKS have an official adjustment range? 

 

For the sake of curiosity, I test mounted a Pivot to a 2x4 at ~313BSL. It seemed I was able to put both a 310BSL and 317BSL boot in there and adjust forward pressure adequately. 

 

Context: I have old boots that I quite like, but a new pair for this season recommended by a fitter. They are same mondo but quite different BSL. I've been nervous to mount my new sticks until I confirm I love the new boots. 

post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
 

@Philpug  -- do Pivots/FKS have an official adjustment range? 

 

For the sake of curiosity, I test mounted a Pivot to a 2x4 at ~313BSL. It seemed I was able to put both a 310BSL and 317BSL boot in there and adjust forward pressure adequately. 

You should juuuust make in in that range. By > < much ;)

post #5 of 24

Don't do demo bindings. Your boot sole length will never vary so much that it can't be accommodated by the adjustment rails on a regular binding. A demo binding is much heavier than a regular binding, and if your ski doesn't have plates, it will affect the flex of the ski, sometimes quite a bit. 

post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Don't do demo bindings. Your boot sole length will never vary so much that it can't be accommodated by the adjustment rails on a regular binding. A demo binding is much heavier than a regular binding, and if your ski doesn't have plates, it will affect the flex of the ski, sometimes quite a bit. 

 

There are some reasons to go demo: ability to play with "mounting" point to dial in just what you like and the ability to share your ski with friends/family. Resell is also easier. 

 

The Tyrolia Attack and Marker Royal demos don't weigh considerably more than their non-demo counterparts. 

post #7 of 24
Below are my take on pros and cons for demo vs fixed.

Pros for demo bindings:
1. Can adapt to different BSL and mounting positions.
2. Arguably easier to resell

Cons for demo bindings:
1. Weigh and cost more
2. Some prone to less directional energy transfer compared to their fixed counterpart

Pros and cons for fixed: the opposite of the above

...I have Jester demo bindings on my BMX98s. I wish I had gotten the fixed ones, however. Why? I thought I would but I rarely mess around with mounting positions. Extra weight even if it may not seem much on paper seem to make a difference.
post #8 of 24
What do you all think about the Marker Schizo bindings? Can't they easily accommodate different boot sizes and be moved forward and back to play with different mount positions?
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post

What do you all think about the Marker Schizo bindings? Can't they easily accommodate different boot sizes and be moved forward and back to play with different mount positions?

 

Adjusts fore and aft easy, but does not adjust for different BSL's quickly and easily. Other than having the connection from the toe to heal, it is the same basic design as the demo binding. Unless you plan on adjusting the binding forward for a center mount in the park, you will not be moving the binding more than 2-3 time. 

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Don't do demo bindings. Your boot sole length will never vary so much that it can't be accommodated by the adjustment rails on a regular binding. A demo binding is much heavier than a regular binding, and if your ski doesn't have plates, it will affect the flex of the ski, sometimes quite a bit. 


This would be wrong, and just repeating old wives tales.

 

The Marker Jester has a plate on the rear on their standard version and only adds one on the front for the demo.  This one plastic piece doesn't affect weight in any appreciable way, and I'd be extremely surprised if it had any REAL effect on flex.

 

Alternatively, demo's allow you to change mounting position at will to see what works best, change boot sole length for friends and family use, makes them much easier to transport if that's an issue (I can bring 4 pairs of skis and one set of bindings), and  make them easier to sell later.

 

All mine have demo's, and I've also skied the fixed ones, and there is NO difference.

 

post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofun3 View Post


This would be wrong, and just repeating old wives tales.

The Marker Jester has a plate on the rear on their standard version and only adds one on the front for the demo.  This one plastic piece doesn't affect weight in any appreciable way, and I'd be extremely surprised if it had any REAL effect on flex.

Alternatively, demo's allow you to change mounting position at will to see what works best, change boot sole length for friends and family use, makes them much easier to transport if that's an issue (I can bring 4 pairs of skis and one set of bindings), and  make them easier to sell later.

All mine have demo's, and I've also skied the fixed ones, and there is NO difference.





Only we're not talking about the Jesters. We're talking about the Look PX12. I have 4 sets of skis with the PX12 or it's badged equivalent (Rossi Axial). 3 sets are mounted flat, 1 is on demo rails. The difference is huge. The demo rails are on my carvers, so the weight and stiffness aren't a huge drawback. But in general, I'd never put the PX 12 demo on my normal skis.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post


Only we're not talking about the Jesters. We're talking about the Look PX12. I have 4 sets of skis with the PX12 or it's badged equivalent (Rossi Axial). 3 sets are mounted flat, 1 is on demo rails. The difference is huge. The demo rails are on my carvers, so the weight and stiffness aren't a huge drawback. But in general, I'd never put the PX 12 demo on my normal skis.

 

I think @snofun3  and my point is simply not to throw-out the baby with the bathwater. I'm with you the PX12 demos in the OP aren't a high-performing binding.  But to say all demos have their same flaws is an overstatement. 

post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofun3 View Post
 

The Marker Jester has a plate on the rear on their standard version and only adds one on the front for the demo.  This one plastic piece doesn't affect weight in any appreciable way, and I'd be extremely surprised if it had any REAL effect on flex.

 

 

Are the other Marker bindings (Squire, Griffon) mounted on a rear plate as well? Where do you get the extra front and rear mounting plates for your other skis? Why would someone get a Marker Schizo binding vs a Marker demo binding? Intriguing minds want to know.

post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
 

 

Are the other Marker bindings (Squire, Griffon) mounted on a rear plate as well? Where do you get the extra front and rear mounting plates for your other skis? Why would someone get a Marker Schizo binding vs a Marker demo binding? Intriguing minds want to know.

1) Yes.

2) not easily available, if at all.

3) with a schitzo, the toe and heal move together, so no need to reset fwd pressure when you move the binding position, with the demo the heal and toe move independently and fwd pressure needs to be reset with any move.

post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Most bindings have 10-20mm of trade (except Pivots/FKS's), enough for one boot size up or down. If you are starting with the right boot, this should not be an issue. Salomon Sth2 bindings have about 25mm of travel, enough for 3 boot sizes, which I hope you don't need. IF thinking about a demo binding, the Tyrolia Attack13 and the Marker Griffon ski just like their retail counterpart but the Look will really give a disconnect between the skier and the ski. 


Though it should be noted to the OP that all of the travel (in non-demo bindings) is in the heel.   Thus, as you know, if you go down one size you lose 1 cm of BSL, which effectively moves your mount point 0.5 cm forward on the ski; visa-versa if you upsize by one.  

 

I find 0.5 cm makes a difference in performance --  one evening I was playing with my Head moveable bindings, which move in 4 mm increments, and noticed the next day the skis felt funny.  After checking, I realized I hadn't returned them to my favored position -- I was off by 4 mm.  Others may not notice this.

post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

 

Adjusts fore and aft easy, but does not adjust for different BSL's quickly and easily. Other than having the connection from the toe to heal, it is the same basic design as the demo binding. Unless you plan on adjusting the binding forward for a center mount in the park, you will not be moving the binding more than 2-3 time. 

If you want to change to a different BSL is a remount needed for the Schizo bindings? Does changing to a different BSL affect the mounting position like it probably would for a fixed binding ie would you lose some of the range fore-aft range of the Schizo? Meaning would you end up having an imbalance of how much the binding could shift either forward or backward? Thanks!


Edited by Prosper - 10/19/15 at 6:21am
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

 

Adjusts fore and aft easy, but does not adjust for different BSL's quickly and easily. Other than having the connection from the toe to heal, it is the same basic design as the demo binding. Unless you plan on adjusting the binding forward for a center mount in the park, you will not be moving the binding more than 2-3 time. 

If you want to change to a different BSL is a remount needed for the Schizo bindings? Does changing to a different BSL affect the mounting position like it probably would for a fixed binding ie would you lose some of the range fore-aft range of the Schizo? Meaning would you end up having an imbalance of how much the binding could shift either forward or backward? Thanks!


Why would you want to change to a different BSL? Just because you buy new bots doesn't mean the BSL changes, unless your current boot aren't the correct size. For any given size, BSL doesn't vary more than 1-2 mm among brands. BSL is a non issue.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post


Why would you want to change to a different BSL? Just because you buy new bots doesn't mean the BSL changes, unless your current boot aren't the correct size. For any given size, BSL doesn't vary more than 1-2 mm among brands. BSL is a non issue.

 

I had a 5mm difference going from a Dallbelo to a Technica boot. Ironically the Technica has a snugger fit with no heel lift but a longer BSL. Also depending on brand I might end up in a different size boot, ie going from a size 25 to a 26 and thus a 5mm or more difference in BSL.

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post


Why would you want to change to a different BSL? Just because you buy new bots doesn't mean the BSL changes, unless your current boot aren't the correct size. For any given size, BSL doesn't vary more than 1-2 mm among brands. BSL is a non issue.

 

*among most brands. 

 

I'm in the same Mondo with a 7mm difference this year. 

post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post


Why would you want to change to a different BSL? Just because you buy new bots doesn't mean the BSL changes, unless your current boot aren't the correct size. For any given size, BSL doesn't vary more than 1-2 mm among brands. BSL is a non issue.

My current boots have taken quite a bit of work to get them to fit properly including punching, grinding and aftermarket custom liners. I've had a few pretty good bootfitters tell me that they would've sized me up one size. My boots are ~8 years old and will probably need to be replaced within the next couple of years and I'm anticipating a bigger size. I'd also like to be able to have my 14yo son use these skis and his boots are a different size than mine. I like the Schizo's ability to move forward and back as well. I don't change that often but like to be able to do it occasionally depending on conditions and how I want to ski.

post #21 of 24

One of my justifications for a large quiver is to loan out my skis a lot. We have a lot of guests at our house and my skis do get set to different boot sizes frequently. So a demo style binding is quite useful for me.

 

I am a weight freak so I begrudge every extra gram added to my skis. Some demo bindings are ridiculously heavy, some are lighter than common fixed bindings. (I have replaced the heavy bindings with lighter bindings and actually felt a difference - but that's another thread.) I am older so I'm not allowed a really high din. Plastic lightweight bindings work fine for me. The demo versions are still quite light (Marker Schizio Squire and Head Railflex).

 

I also love tweaking my skis. The ability to change binding position can make a so-so ski rock when dialed in for me and the conditions. Even if I don't make a huge difference, the process is fun.

 

The final merit of demo bindings is that you can find remount holes that are far enough away from the old holes that the ski's structural integrity is not compromised. Maybe you have to creatively use some of the adjustability to find that clean mounting spot but it does give you more options. (I often mount my own bindings.)

 

Eric

post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

1) Yes.
2) not easily available, if at all.
3) with a schitzo, the toe and heal move together, so no need to reset fwd pressure when you move the binding position, with the demo the heal and toe move independently and fwd pressure needs to be reset with any move.

It sounds like if a Marker toe plate can be found, any of the royal bindings can be changed essentially to a demo binding. Is that right?
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post


It sounds like if a Marker toe plate can be found, any of the royal bindings can be changed essentially to a demo binding. Is that right?

 

No.

post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post


Only we're not talking about the Jesters. We're talking about the Look PX12. I have 4 sets of skis with the PX12 or it's badged equivalent (Rossi Axial). 3 sets are mounted flat, 1 is on demo rails. The difference is huge. The demo rails are on my carvers, so the weight and stiffness aren't a huge drawback. But in general, I'd never put the PX 12 demo on my normal skis.

 

Who's we? So far in that thread the Look, Rossi (same, I know), Salomon, Tyrolia and Griffon had been discussed.

 

Because the Rossi demo's are compromised doesn't mean the others are, however you made a blanket statement and it was wrong.

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