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shell sizing

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hello first is there a place to look which gives various manufacturers internal shell dimensions to save asking ?

 

With Mondo sizing although for each given size individual manufacturers have different sole and internal shell lengths, however in a given boot range does the internal shell size go up in 10 mm increments per mondo point ?

 

Lastly for a high performance fit rather than a race fit, provided the shell shape matches the foot what is the smallest shell fit gap that is reasonable, 5mm ? 7 mm ? 10mm ?

post #2 of 18

each mondo size goes up by about 10mm, both inside and outside.

 

each moondo size, the width changes by 2-3 mm

post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 

Thank you Mntlion for the information ive twice had holidays skiing from a Banff base its a lovely area

post #4 of 18

It sounds to me like you are thinking of purchasing on the internet.  Baaaaadddddddd idea!

 

Lou

post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 

HI Lou,no i'm not thinking about it i've done it more than once. Most are looking for one pair of boots and to get the best fit they can, for those who are doing this I say great go and find a "good" boot fitter. I am trying to learn as much as I can and to find from the minefield out there what makes logical sense to me and what works for me. A journey if you will.

I have seen been "fitted" many times and gone through a lot as others have experienced from the French shop on my first ever trip putting me into Salomon SX80 ??? whatever they were too sizes too big.

When I started to look at boots again about three years ago now my main concern was to get a cabrio boot so I could simply get a damaged ankle into the boot. I read a lot of reviews and found after a lot of traveling and searching and trying one pair size 24 the smallest they make.

Shell fit on the Kryptons shell fit is approx 15mm.

First trip irrelevant as I was carrying a bad injury.

Second trip this time with zip fit grand prix I was given a one to one coaching session from an instructor who coaches the local racers. To my surprise she said I am a good skier who should be looking into a race boot and even perhaps with a leather liner.

Note I did not ask her about boots or equipment at all. As I hope to go and stay with a friend in Austria and ski as much as possible this next season and wishing to learn more and improve my technique further, I have taken her advise to heart.

I visited not CEM but another store also a 4hour round trip on several occasions to try and retry. A lady whom I would trust said that yes I am a 24 and the two models she would look to put me into were the Redster PRO or WC and although I am small she thought I flexed the 130 no problems. The other boot recommended was the Raptor.

The Raptor seemed to be the best match of shape to my foot of any boot I have tried on and I bought the B3 RD in 24, however being a conservative sort and not a racer I subsequently swapped this out for the RS 130. 

Shell fit on the RS 12.5 mm, however like the fit around the heel and ankles is looser than I would like. An option is to fit a zip fit.

I like the stance and ramp okay but am not happy with the foot bed or base situation so am playing around with a lot of options I have while trying to conclude about the function of the foot in skiing.

There seems to be a lot of diverse opinion should the foot bed totaly stabilise or allow pronation ? fully support the arch ? and the alignment of the foot in general, this I am still thinking on. I know some of the things I am looking for myself.

Pronation to allow balance on one leg but not sure is this ought to be free full range or limited and I am aware of the issues pronation can cause with pressure points within a boot.

Full support of the arch or not ? well I also know that I wish to be able to freely transfer pressure along my foot from heel to ball and have no undue pressure under my arch, this for me seems critical, and it is possible that the shape of the Head base board is as much as my foot currently allows.

I like that the Atomic has a flat base board or almost so. I have bought from abroad the Redster PRO and played with this for a time including the heat moulding thing which I believe was a mistake on my part as it loosened the rear and no I did not push my heel around it was toes up and sit the heel back and keep still.

I recently asked about whether the WC had a lower height over the instep and being assured it did have bought a pair from abroad, total cost of the two Redsters for my learning playing and experimentation is less than the current sale price of one pair.

In doing all this I have wasted no good fitters time as the only places ive spent time with ive bought boots from at full retail and had no work done by either of them.

I have and can find the process extremely stressful which is not conducive to my making of good sound decisions and this year with a past I have spend a small fortune much of it wasted due to poor advise.

I suspect I ought to have stayed with the B3 RD my bad my loss, I will have owned and tried all permutations I can come up with on all three of the boots recommended to me by a good fitter, and have spent a long time playing fiddling learning experimenting.

I have been fitted by CEM and found him to be focused, and with an absolute determination to get her done and done successfully, and I may end up at his door, but I have no wish to take a lot of his time up without being pretty sure within my own mind exactly what I am aiming for and why, clarity if you like. He is a professional as I am and for me it is best if the client can be clear and focused, I hope this makes sense to you professional boot fitters out there.

Some of this is I am still in the throws of learning for myself what ramp and cuff lean I feel work best for me and I do not know my skis delta and cant find out nor work it out as the skis are abroad, so I would like some options and am very focused to get this part right for me to be happy and perform my best.

I have asked about shell sizes as I am on the cusp that I either need to go race boot to get a snug back end or perhaps in a Lange with its longer length to go down one shell size into a 23 which is not common, i'm short so considering seeing if I can try on a RS 120 SC, but unsure for several reasons. Might be too soft ive found I prefer a stiffer boot. The ramp is 4 deg might be more than I like and yes the Atomic seems to be the same, and perhaps the cuff is a little upright for me.

Even changing liners makes enough lean change to be noticeable to me so again I would like to spend however many hours I need to be a better prepared client first if indeed help is necassary

Any constructive thoughts to help guide me through the process I would appreciate, after all there even seems to be a lot of diverse opinion about how to ski or how we should learn, and such as the Kryptons being a rotary boot etc

post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 

I hope some of what I have writen will be of interest to fitters included and another aspect ive not mentioned is that the shop I have used one of the fitters said to me that if they do a punch I have to leave the boots over night. In essence I look at this and think well my time and my life is valuable as well so that is a full 8 hours of my time to drop the boots off and go and collect them so when looking at costs I factor in the loss of my time, and can look and say actually to buy that boot makes sense even if it does not work out.

post #7 of 18

Wow, that is quite the tale.

 

I'm not certain given all your questions and issues that it will be possible for you to successfully buy online.  Buy yes, successfully I doubt.

 

some of the things you mention such as ramp can easily be altered so I don't think they should immediately enter into the purchasing decision.  My experience tells me that almost everything about a boot can be altered, so I focus only on what is the best starting point to end up with a firm comfortable fit and I then change the things that are necessary to get there.  Then I change the things that are necessary to get the stance necessary.

 

There are all different types of footbeds and I'll offer only this.  Inside the boot your foot constantly moves between a pronated and a supinated position.  How much it moves and how necessary movement is depends on your technique, but it is absolutely necessary.  IMO and I'll say typically, a footbed that is a solid connection between the ground beneath your arch and your arch is designed to limit pronation by preventing the arch from moving and this will be uncomfortable and limiting to your skiing ability.

 

Lou

post #8 of 18

suggest the store invests in either a cold water tank or a chest freezer, having someone come back next day to pick up a boot is fine if you are a resort store, as a store in a town you don't have that as an option.... btw what type of punch was it they said would need to be left overnight?

post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hi guys and I appreciate your replies

 

CEM first the punch was nothing specific, this was a young man at a place oooooooooooooh somewhere near Hillingdon, who in his opinion bearing in mind this was perhaps three years ago now said if I have the money then Fischer Vacuum (I wasn't interested in going there and i'm still not just my choice ) and the next alternate for him was a pair of Redster WC 110. The shell almost certainly would need a punch and I was asking how confident he was to get a good fit. The liner was painful into the heel and I thought would need some punching for the 6th toe left side, but I would take time at home wearing them first before I would have any work done. As foot beds etc do alter things and punches once done are not perhaps reversible, measure twice cut once springs to mind.

He told me because punches shrink boots had to be left over night. I liked him he was genuine etc but I did not think this was logistically acceptable. You worked on my Salmons and did at least one punch prior to foaming and no issues ensued. Fate took over I had a fall moved my right talus so it projected 1/2 inch out in front of my ankle ! leading me to buy the Kryptons, no chance to get this foot into a close shell then none at all.

 

Lou I have used ridgid orthotics and foot beds as well as posted to prevent pronation. I do have flexible rather than stiff feet, no nasty abnormalities but the arches are pretty low and my feet not strong. I have been working really hard to increase arch reformation and intrinsic strength within my feet so with the boots we are sort of shooting at a moving target for now.

I have learnt a lot and totally agree with what you have said in as much as first if the arch is supported too much then this becomes painful, and in my experience I can find it difficult to move pressure to the ball of my foot. I am playing with some superfeet wide greens and felt they matched my foot well but have even removed the plastic cradle to heat and remove the indent where the base seems to be stamped and glued onto the foam upper, simply because I could feel this slight lump under my foot.

Since first being told over 35 years ago that I pronate and had wedges placed under the inside of the heel 9Salomon SX 92 ) it has taken until this year to realise the obvious that prevention of pronation/supination restricts function and the innate ability to balance on one foot. I have been practising with a wobble board and balance cushion so to then lock my foot and lose this ability seems silly. I also practice in the various ski boots to see what effect some changes are having.

 

I like the Raptors but I have been concerned about messing with the boot board until I can get a replacement. If I shim the front there is almost no room above my toes already, if I shim or wedge the heel that moves me into a different part of the heel pocket, so if needed I would sand flat the middle part. It looks like this might make the wings thin or non existent however, Is that a problem ? or have you done this on that boot and not had any issues please ? NOTE I like the angles in this boot so alterations here are more to do with marrying a foot bed to the boot board.

 

I do think I am getting there, I plan on intuitions for the Kryptons simply to take up space, this boot I know and is a safe bet, and fills the easy to use cabrio part for me, warm comfortable easy to get on/off, perhaps nicer in bumps if I can ever find them.

 

Next the Redster PRO I like the fact it has a near flat boot board makes life easy, I think will work using the modded and very trimmed super feet and if I need to get it snug then I have a zip fit Grand Prix and lots of extra cork to dial in the fit no shell work necassary. I can alter the cuff but possibly the lean may not be to my liking we'll see when skiing.

That or the Raptor is to give me a two piece four buckle boot and work on my technique and to see if I learn more progress faster or just plain enjoy skiing in them more.

 

With one cabrio and one two piece sorted usable and no major dramas then I lastly want to go "towards" a race fit and see for myself what it is like to ski in a boot with as close a shell fit as i find acceptable and indeed what point it that for me, I can only know this for myself by going there and trying it. I understand the trade offs and have read how some people love this and some get tired of them (perhaps ex racers used to plugs ) who now want more warmth and comfort, I have no personal data for this it has to be an exploration. I have shied away twice because of the logistics involved and being plain chicken, that with only one pair of cold painful too strong a pair of boots I screwed up a holiday. The Redster WC I have coming well we'll see. If it works great if it needs work on it no problem im sorted to ski anyway. and I have little invested in them.

 

To get the Raptors which I basically really like then I know I may need Colins help for it to all come together but im not there with that yet. Likewise I am sure I will be able to ski in the WC's I have tried them on they were recommended by two different fitters both in 110 and in 130, and ive gone for 150's with a plan, but I am happy and not stressed about making this journey simply because if I skied a run and thought OMG agony i'll be able to chuck them in the car pull out another pair of boots and go ski, so if exploring a race fit takes me another year i'm okay with that and if it is not for me I had to know that for myself as well.

 

I really appreciate the fitters who come on here to give the benefit of years of experience and do feel the genuine concern to help skiers avoid the pitfalls and common mistakes people make or have gone into from bad advise by the shop sales assistant, whom I put my trust in but knew little and were certainly not boot fitters as you guys are. Rest assured ive experienced most of the problems others have gone through. I am just very glad that my feet are not two different mondo sizes and with no huge bony prominences others have had to work around and reading about the struggles and logistics others have endured in the search for good boots makes my own experiences feel like a walk in the park anyway.

 

As a side note when in Banff a few years ago I saw my first machine that would scan the sole of the foot, while the fitter held your ankle in "sub talar neutral" then for a cnc machine to make the perfect orthotic, I really wanted a pair as they seems like the perfect solution but decided I could not afford them. Now I suspect this is the last thing I would choose for myself

post #10 of 18

remind me what size raptor is it you have (what model also) i may have spare base boards or can probably get some. no issue at all with grinding the middle flat, we do this to pretty much every raptor we sell so that the footbed can interface better with the boot than it would on the wavy baseboard, the side pieces do get very thin but this is not a problem UNLESS you do not locate the baseboard in the boot well before you stand on it.... on that other note, boot punches normally only go back if the plastic is not hot enough in the first place, people are all too quick to blast fierce heat at a boot, slow heat from a distance penetrates much more and allowing the boot to cool fully gives the best results (hence the freezer)

post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 

Good information thanks the shell is mondo 24.5

post #12 of 18

smallest i have in my box of head boot porn is 25.5, let me see if i can get hold of some from my italian contact at Head

post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 

Sounds good thanks

post #14 of 18

Getting zeppas for the Raptor will not be a problem, but sanding the mid-portion (under the arch) will have no affect on ramp angle.

 

Lou

post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hi Lou, yes I understand this thanks. I think I did say above (sorry there was too much in my post above) that I like the angles on the Raptor, and alteration of the boot board in this case is to do with getting the foot bed to play nicely. I am reluctant to make changes until i'm sure or the change is reversible, hence a spare pair would be nice to have in case I mess up.

The base board alone no foot bed is not uncomfortable, but simply has other fit issues, like making the boot too loose, yes I could shim it, but I suspect dont know but suspect I will need a great foot bed for this particular boot to work and I am trying to figure that out as to why. It seems I get too much ankle roll that is not present in the Atomics. I am looking into fit around the ankles etc but suspect it is an under the foot issue.

The boot board plus a Dalbello foot bed might work, at least enough to try the boot out some. The Raptor and Dalbello beds are the same size and shape, look to be made by the same company but the Head version has a thickened relatively firm increased thickness under the arch which I find uncomfortable.

  

I did manage to find out that the heel on my bindings is 2mm higher than the toe (I cant check myself as the skis are abroad) but think if I want to go that far then best I have the toe of the binding raised if possible, it is a Tyrolia system binding on a Kastle ski but I might want to have another ski also and what then. Personally for now I would like my stance/boots sorted to be okay on a flat floor and take it from there. If you think that is a bad idea or there is a better way to get the system right ie bindings and ski together I am interested

post #16 of 18
Thread Starter 

Happy to say I have successfully flattened the mid portion of the zeppa with no major drama. 

Thank you for all thoughts shared, particularly knowing this is routine for boot fitters gave me confidence to make this alteration, and while not perfect I would now be happy to try the boots on snow

post #17 of 18

i have got zeppas en route too 

post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hi CEM, that's good perhaps a PM when they have arrived thanks

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