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banking vs. not - Page 3

post #61 of 84
Can't lift the inside hip without also lowering the rib cage as muscles contract from both ends... Not just one. Lifting the inside is an interpretation based on the observations of those who watch but cannot do.
post #62 of 84

 Fair point, but I do think people can elicit a pinch-like feel by contracting the ribs and bending the spine without a whole lot in the way of actual pelvic tilt, which was my point.

 

  zenny

post #63 of 84

Did anyone see this on Elite Skiing?

 

http://skicanadamag.com/snow-school/four-common-myths-skiing

 

 

Just curious what your thoughts were... 

post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralba View Post
 

Did anyone see this on Elite Skiing?

 

http://skicanadamag.com/snow-school/four-common-myths-skiing

 

 

Just curious what your thoughts were... 


very interesting article ---- so to summarize what a CSIA highest level insists on:

- skiing with a narrow stance

- lifting the inside ski, to weight the outside - control the outside ski with the inside ski

- lifting the inside ski and hip and shoulder, for both counterbalancing and tipping

- lifting the inside ski and rolling the ankles inside the boot, to tip the skis: roll onto the little toe edge early, never start with the big toe.

 

what... no steering?

 

(cheap shot, had to take)

post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Can't lift the inside hip without also lowering the rib cage as muscles contract from both ends... Not just one. Lifting the inside is an interpretation based on the observations of those who watch but cannot do.

Not entirely true.   Muscles have insertions and origins.  When a muscle contracts the insertion moves towards the origin.  Now in most muscles the insertion and origin can switch ends at least functionally.  Ex.  I can contract the biceps brachi  and which flexes  the elbow and bring my hand towards my shoulder.  I can also  fix the hand and contract the biceps bringing the shoulder to the wrist (think pull up).  When the muscle contracts the action that results is dependent upon what all the other muscles are doing in concert with the primary action.  Muscle insertions and origins are defined based upon their primary or most commonly used  function.   Therefor I can raise my hip to my ribs, I can move my ribs to the hip or I can do a little bit of both.  YM

post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralba View Post
 

Did anyone see this on Elite Skiing?

 

http://skicanadamag.com/snow-school/four-common-myths-skiing

 

 

Just curious what your thoughts were... 


1.  Wide stance.  Back in the day when I was mostly just skiing as fast as possible, I had a wide stance, which was "incorrect".  Time passed and the wide stance became in fashion.  Truth is that stance width is dependent on the situation, wide for stability and narrow for agility.

2. Weight downhill ski (by downhill I assume they mean outside).  Amount of weight preference depends on snow surfaces ability to support it.  Method 1 (shift weight over onto it) works at low speeds where method 2 would have you fall inside the turn.   Method 2 works great at speed when there is enough centrifugal force.  Again dependent on the situation.

3.Waist pinching.  If you ski fast enough and tip your skis to turn tight enough, centripetal force will pull your upper body into angulation, no need to pinch the ribs to the hips.  With experience you can augment or diminish this effect with muscular action of the whole upper and lower body.

4. Yes rolling the skis from edge to edge without rotation is a better way to do it.  How much weight to put on it is again situationally dependent.  Put yourself where you want to be.

post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Can't lift the inside hip without also lowering the rib cage as muscles contract from both ends... Not just one. Lifting the inside is an interpretation based on the observations of those who watch but cannot do.


you mean it is really done not as much as an action of the muscles on the inside (i.e. directly lift the inside hip by dragging it "up"), but the ones on the outside - i.e. lifting the inside is a result of efforts on the other side?

 

i'm fuzzy on the bio-mechanics of how that actually works...

post #68 of 84

That's what SkiCanada is saying.  

There are others who say it too, you know.

Here's one:

http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!inclination-or-angulation/cu0z

post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


very interesting article ---- so to summarize what a CSIA highest level insists on:

- skiing with a narrow stance

- lifting the inside ski, to weight the outside - control the outside ski with the inside ski

- lifting the inside ski and hip and shoulder, for both counterbalancing and tipping

- lifting the inside ski and rolling the ankles inside the boot, to tip the skis: roll onto the little toe edge early, never start with the big toe.

 

You don't say.

post #70 of 84

@yogaman

I understand what you're saying, but how much can the hip really raise when you're standing on the opposite leg? I think you'll find that the action that delivers more result is to move the weighted hip to move down (while doing what you describe with the inside). This combats the curvature of the spine that can occur from only concentrating on the inside. Feeling that "pinch" that coaches often describe is actually a poor method of physical feedback...

post #71 of 84

So, thinking through the inside hip thing, which is interesting.

 

If we are to maintain it level, from a level flexed transition, the focus is more on not letting it drop. In this case is more about extending the outside leg to the side and supporting it while extending without dropping the inside hip, which will result in some pinching. This would be good.

 

The leverage is against the momentum of the body, with light feet.

 

If one inclines into the turn instead, the inside hip is dropped so we'd be trying to level it. The most natural would be cranking the shoulders, but we are also lowering the other hip, so that would be more effective.

 

The only leverage in this case is the engaged (heavy) outside leg. It's a hinge over the long outside leg, of the entire core. Torso and pelvis.

 

I think the mental cue is "lifting it" in reality we don't really lift it, per se.

 

I know it's always fun trying to "lift it" while keeping the inside ski on the snow.

 

Now, at Helluva's angles this Newtonian bio-mechanics probably breaks down anyways

post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

That's what SkiCanada is saying.  

There are others who say it too, you know.

Here's one:

http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!inclination-or-angulation/cu0z


I would argue about his forces diagram demonstrating why there is a thing as too much angulation. Not taht it's wrong, but there are more variables at play. He touches on the speed, but the required bend in the skis is the other variable - any force down we may develop from angulation will be opposed as long as we don't sink into the slope (i.e. injected).

 

p.s. that is an awesome article, though. And yes, he also mentions creating the turn (inclination) by relaxing the inside leg. Thank you for this though. There is a section in there where he describes what I'm trying to get a handle on right now (but I could not understand until I got here): gain without pain. Well, as soon as I'm back on snow, that is.


Edited by razie - 9/30/15 at 5:50pm
post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

@yogaman

I understand what you're saying, but how much can the hip really raise when you're standing on the opposite leg? I think you'll find that the action that delivers more result is to move the weighted hip to move down (while doing what you describe with the inside). This combats the curvature of the spine that can occur from only concentrating on the inside. Feeling that "pinch" that coaches often describe is actually a poor method of physical feedback...


How about this.  There is a disease called muscular dystrophy that among other things demonstrates something called the Trendelenburg sign or gait.  It is a weakness in the lower extremity abductor muscles, gluteus medius and gluteus minimus.  As we walk and step on the right leg the gluteal muscles support the right hip in such a way that the left hip is raised or at least doesn't drop.  This allows for the left foot to clear the floor as you stride forward with the left foot as you are supported on the right leg.  It is weakness of these muscles that causes the Trendelenburg gait seen in MD.  So some of the effort   of keeping the inside hip up occurs as a result of muscle contraction in the butt  on the stance leg.    Additional support of the  hips  (pelvis) occurs as a result of contraction of a strong muscle beside the spine which is a primary muscle of lumbar spine lateral flexion and elevation of the pelvis on the same side  called quadratus lumborum.    The internal and external oblique abdominal muscles also help with lateral flexion of the lumbar spine.  I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of the curvature of the spine.   Which curvature are you speaking of.  YM

post #74 of 84

@yogaman,

I think we agree... my point is that the famous "pinch" causes a lateral bend in the spine [weak]. Picking up the inside hip as a solution to that issue results in both sides of your obliques trying to contact - as opposed to one side contracting and one side extending in order to support keeping the pelvis somewhat level with the hips. When a skier goes for the pinch and the raising of the inside hip, the two sides actually work against each other... so in practice I've found that neither instruction produces the desired result.

post #75 of 84
Thread Starter 

So in layman's terms.....................how do you lift the inside hip?  Is it simply unweighting the inside leg more, or attempting to get the upper body to level off at some point in the turn?  Would pulling the inside arm up and/or forward help?  I am having a hell of a time picturing what you guys are talking about.  

post #76 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

@yogaman,

I think we agree... my point is that the famous "pinch" causes a lateral bend in the spine [weak]. Picking up the inside hip as a solution to that issue results in both sides of your obliques trying to contact - as opposed to one side contracting and one side extending in order to support keeping the pelvis somewhat level with the hips. When a skier goes for the pinch and the raising of the inside hip, the two sides actually work against each other... so in practice I've found that neither instruction produces the desired result.

I do agree with you.  I just get concerned when folks try to explain things technically and get technical explanations wrong.  That's why most of my teaching entails saying, "do this".  Show the student or help the student feel what is intended without technical solutions.   YM 

post #77 of 84
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post #78 of 84

Ok guys, what is it? This guy is saying HIPS, KNEE, ANKLES!  And some of you say tip ankles and knees, hips will follow..  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiA_wQNeLXg

post #79 of 84

I will make on comment that "level" and "banking" is all relative to the pitch/terrain/speed/turn shape.  This very similar to banked curves on highways.

 

For reference I am going to use Toronto's HWY 409 to 401 Eastbound as an example.  Driven at 90km (about 55mph) it feels (and looks) like a level curve, driven at 30km (about 18mph) it shows considerable banking, enough so that when the corner is iced you slide to the inside, so on those days it is to be avoided as you assured fender bumps by those that don't know.

 

End result, it's about perspective and how we describe it.

 

Otherwise, nicely done.

post #80 of 84
Helluva, you are right that muscle contractions happen on the outside hip, however I do not like the notion you say of dropping the outside hip down. That can easily lead to hip dumping. Counter balancing is about lifting the inside hip, or at least preventing it from dropping. As you correctly surmise, it should not be assumed that the muscle contractions required to do that are in the inside half of the hip. The good ol pinch on the outside is an oldie but goodie for feeling certain sensations, however I also feel there is a counter-action component which I was trying to avoid for now to avoid derailing the thread, however this counter action component is also part and parcel of the muscle activations to do what I just described with the inside hip while also moving it forward at the same time. Counter action can reduce some of that outside waist pinching sensation, which is a good thing, and infers there are still other muscle activations involved. Not on the inside half, I agree but not entirely focused on the outside hip either.

If I tell you to lift your hand in the air, you will just do it without using much activation of muscles in your actual hand, most of the lifting comes from other body parts intuitively. Likewise lifting your inside hip or at least preventing it from dropping, does not involve many muscles in the inside hip. I suspect there is a lot going on with the core to do this that is rather complex to understand precisely or describe, but it's easier to intuitively do it by just focusing on keeping the inside hip up.

This is in stark contrast to more generalized angulation theory which tends to be focused on keeping the shoulders level, with no regard for the hip. That is what will cause the spine to curve, no Bueno.
post #81 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralba View Post
 

Ok guys, what is it? This guy is saying HIPS, KNEE, ANKLES!  And some of you say tip ankles and knees, hips will follow..  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiA_wQNeLXg


Many say start with the feet.  It's very, very good advice.  Starting with the feet translates into tipping the ankle inside the boot before doing anything else, which activates some knee action.  If you ankle-tip with only the new inside foot (downhill foot) onto its little toe edge, then you end up going bowlegged on that side.  If you do both feet at the same time, you don't.   Starting with the feet like this keeps your feet under your hips, and helps you avoid banking.  It's good.  What I just said assumes you are starting a turn from an upright body position.


Moving the hip over from that upright body position, in order to get your skis edged, results in both feet being way out to the side of your body.  People aim for this look, but it has its problems, which are too many to list here.  The best way to get that hip down, as we see in racers at the gate, is to focus on lifting up the inside knee as high as your armpit.  It's not a hip movement but a knee movement.

 

So let's say you have that hip down there at the end of a turn.  Tipping that outside ankle ain't gonna happen first as you start your new turn.  Shortening that outside leg must happen first.  Other things go on too, but by the time you succeed in getting that hip down there you'll know what they are.

post #82 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

So in layman's terms.....................how do you lift the inside hip?  Is it simply unweighting the inside leg more, or attempting to get the upper body to level off at some point in the turn?  Would pulling the inside arm up and/or forward help?  I am having a hell of a time picturing what you guys are talking about.  


I confess to not being able to describe it accurately.  YM does a better job.  However, I would say that it's kind of like hinging at the lower outside hip instead of bending at the lower spine. 

post #83 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

So in layman's terms.....................how do you lift the inside hip?  Is it simply unweighting the inside leg more, or attempting to get the upper body to level off at some point in the turn?  Would pulling the inside arm up and/or forward help?  I am having a hell of a time picturing what you guys are talking about.  


try and video.

post #84 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

So in layman's terms.....................how do you lift the inside hip?  Is it simply unweighting the inside leg more, or attempting to get the upper body to level off at some point in the turn?  Would pulling the inside arm up and/or forward help?  I am having a hell of a time picturing what you guys are talking about.  


Stretch the inside arm, hand, shoulder, and hip upward and forward through the whole turn.

Allow the outside arm, hand, shoulder, and hip to be farther back and lower.

 

Perfect drill for learning to feel this is the Schlopy Drill.  Focus on the stretch upward and forward of that inside arm.
Watch here.  It's the second drill:

 

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