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# banking vs. not - Page 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

Thanks Rick.  I just stumbled on these doing a search the other day.  Now I need some snow to practice.  Still trying to figure out what JF is talking about when he talks about steering of the lower body. I kinda see it in his videos, just have a hard time picturing how to do it here sitting on my sofa.

That's a question for Klaus and the http://www.sofaskischool.com/

JF's steering concept falls in the pivoting category, while sitting on the sofa: with the feet flat on the floor, just rotate your feet, while still flat on the floor, to the left, so they point to the left :)

in reality, steering as in guiding the skis is slightly more complicated and falls flat between pivoting and counteraction, in the sense that if your feet are flat, you get pivoting of the skis, if your skis are on edge, then steering has more to do with separation because you are pivoting uhh the femurs... yes, it is fuzzy because it is fuzzy

basically, if you define it that way, we are all steering even if just tipping the skis causes them to turn, because we maintain a good functional tension in the lower feet to not unwind the upper body!

So if your point of view is upper body centric (i.e. you think the upper body wants to not turn), then you need to steer the skis to the left, to turn them "underneath" or simply to allow them to keep turning left in relation with the upper body i.e. separation (whether they skid or not being the result of your edging skills). that's just what you did on the sofa!!! If you on the other hand, have a point of view were the reaction force from the snow causes a tipped ski to turn, then you turn the upper body the other way, for again separation, but as counteraction/coiling.

you pick your Newton... savvy?

so at one end of the scale you have sheer twisting and pivoting of the skis to turn them against the upper body and at the other you have tipping with square skiing. good skiing is in the middle of that range. The more dynamic, the more active the core&pelvis is/are and you get to pick if you ski from the body down or from the feet up.

however, the two approaches result in different turn mechanics and dynamics, in my view, and a keen eye can pick either bias in one's skiing, given the way big vs small muscle groups are used (or rather in what sequence?). One is suitable at low ski angles (where most rec skiers live, per RLM, where pivoting the femurs along their long axis still has to do with separation) while the other can cover the entire range (at the low end, the fact that the skis turn when put on edge is demonstrable by simply doing it, while at the higher edge angles, the rotation of the femurs along their long axis has more to do with edging than separation and "twisting and guiding the skis" when well engaged is not useful - other than in transition when you're not actively guiding them, but that's a different story for a different thread - in fact will want to lift your tails and mess with your status as lawfully engaged).

uhh did i just type all that?

Edited by razie - 9/28/15 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

JF's steering concept falls in the pivoting category, while sitting on the sofa: with the feet flat on the floor, just rotate your feet, while still flat on the floor, to the left, so they point to the left :)

in reality, steering as in guiding the skis is slightly more complicated and falls flat between pivoting and counteraction, in the sense that if your feet are flat, you get pivoting of the skis, if your skis are on edge, then steering has more to do with separation because you are pivoting uhh the femurs... yes, it is fuzzy because it is fuzzy

Razie, is it a rotation of the feet, or trying to move the outside foot in an arc; faster than the natural curve of the ski?  Not sure that is possible but I am wondering if he "pushing the outside foot forward and around.  Not sure I am explaining this correctly.  I guess what I am saying is that is it possible to pull/push the outside leg forward during the turn in order to arc a tighter radius?  Uggh...need snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

JF's steering concept falls in the pivoting category, while sitting on the sofa: with the feet flat on the floor, just rotate your feet, while still flat on the floor, to the left, so they point to the left :)

in reality, steering as in guiding the skis is slightly more complicated and falls flat between pivoting and counteraction, in the sense that if your feet are flat, you get pivoting of the skis, if your skis are on edge, then steering has more to do with separation because you are pivoting uhh the femurs... yes, it is fuzzy because it is fuzzy

Razie, is it a rotation of the feet, or trying to move the outside foot in an arc; faster than the natural curve of the ski?  Not sure that is possible but I am wondering if he "pushing the outside foot forward and around.  Not sure I am explaining this correctly.  I guess what I am saying is that is it possible to pull/push the outside leg forward during the turn in order to arc a tighter radius?  Uggh...need snow.

well - not an expert on steering, but I would say that it depends on how you look at it. I think the "default" meaning for steering is a rotation effort in the foot. whether it actually does rotate the ski (pivot) or just help guide it somehow, is not relevant to having a "steering effort".

making the ski turn more than otherwise is captured nicely in LF's thread on oversteering, couple of weeks back. there are many ways to make a ski oversteer, including heel pushing, fore/aft etc.

http://www.epicski.com/t/142151/oversteering-is-this-a-term-or-a-movement-pattern-that-instructors-use-today/150#post_1904342

do you want to call that steering? perhaps. maybe. but that would make it even more fuzzy, as steering is not a movement anymore but an idea... with 7 completely different mechanisms? so how do you teach it?

Meta is the best to explain what JF means - he's been there done that :)

Edited by razie - 9/29/15 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

JF's steering concept falls in the pivoting category, while sitting on the sofa: with the feet flat on the floor, just rotate your feet, while still flat on the floor, to the left, so they point to the left :)

in reality, steering as in guiding the skis is slightly more complicated and falls flat between pivoting and counteraction, in the sense that if your feet are flat, you get pivoting of the skis, if your skis are on edge, then steering has more to do with separation because you are pivoting uhh the femurs... yes, it is fuzzy because it is fuzzy

Razie, is it a rotation of the feet, or trying to move the outside foot in an arc; faster than the natural curve of the ski?  Not sure that is possible but I am wondering if he "pushing the outside foot forward and around.  Not sure I am explaining this correctly.  I guess what I am saying is that is it possible to pull/push the outside leg forward during the turn in order to arc a tighter radius?  Uggh...need snow.

I'm not going to pretend to know what is on JF's mind when he explains his "steering", nor whether or not it is a force acting to dislodge the ski.

However, as a skier who prefers to pressure the ski and make it cut a clean line, your posts remind me of a means of applying pressure that affects the shape of the ski while maintaining a clean cut.

A ski has a radius of gyration or slenderness ratio that makes it susceptible to buckling of axial pressure is applied.  In layman's terms, if you attempt to push a plastic ruler into the ground it will buckle into a curve easily.  Jaming the tip into the snow makes the ski want to bend.  Attempting to turn tighter while jamming the tip into the snow helps the ski turn tighter; the ski wants to bend from being jammed into the snow, and your are trying to force the ski to turn.  It is still locked into the cut, but it is moving forward and the tip is cutting the new path.  works a bit on antique SG skis (provided tip is soft enough), works quite well on more flexible skis of any shape.  Only caveat is to keep enough pressure on the tails so they don't break loose; there is only so much force to spread around.

from my point of view, the general contention around this is around number 3 below:

is that a result of 1 (and 2) or is that something we must do. is it a result or is it an input, a conscious movement?

although nobody really doubts that 1 causes 3, some will argue for the need of 3 as an input and some will argue against and we can easily cross into a philosophic debate, where some have big stakes (sharp ones at that).

the way i look at it is simple really. if i want to learn and get better at 1, i will refrain from doing 3. do i really do 3 as well when skiing gates/steep/ice/tired/whatever? sure (there's many ways to make a ski overturn, but whatever). does that make me a woos? maybe!

I think you are right.  Better to learn 1 without having 3 mess you up.

But...

Let's say for argument sake, that you learned to do 1 and have been doing it for a few decades.  Let's say you that for quite a few those decades you have been experimenting with pressuring the ski to shape it and letting it take you where you want to go because of the shape you beat into  it.  Now, how about exploring how applying those forces (3 and (not shown) straight ahead) affect the cut - without dislodging the edge (blade) from it's groove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

I think you are right.  Better to learn 1 without having 3 mess you up.

But...

Let's say for argument sake, that you learned to do 1 and have been doing it for a few decades.  Let's say you that for quite a few those decades you have been experimenting with pressuring the ski to shape it and letting it take you where you want to go because of the shape you beat into  it.  Now, how about exploring how applying those forces (3 and (not shown) straight ahead) affect the cut - without dislodging the edge (blade) from it's groove.

i hear you. there's so many other ways to affect the "overturning" of the skis, from feathering the edges, to fore/aft to pushing the heels to timing of pressure and other I guess DIRT elements plus... uhh a bunch of stuff I'm sure I forget, to think that 3 as an action will achieve anything of interest. At high edge angles, that is. At low edge angles, the story may be different, but also fairly irrelevant from my point of view.

cheers

p.s. however, when i have to explain the same idea of overturning (they all result in skidding of parts of the skis) to some racer kid that can't make a course, i may also say "steering" or "skidding" and do the same fuzzy motion with the hands (insert facepalm) and then focus him (or her) on the line options to achieve this or that and let their brains figure out how to glue it all up. I don't agonize over it.

Edited by razie - 9/29/15 at 9:41am

Not to make too big a deal ... but this is old.

Here is a modern approach. Tina (who ?) GS warmup. Note the inclined bod and high out-side hand...low inside as mass-movement... and of course these change all the way through ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi179wKs9cs

( i gotta go pay for my ski season otherwise i'd read more and get into steering digressions)

I'm on the side of steering coming from increasing the edge angles... fine tuned from the knee...

Pivoting from rotating the leg and foot.

Think of the forth dimension (time).  The idea is not to move the ski now, but to pre-stress the ski so that when it moves forward to cut a new path, that new path will be cut tighter than the current line, and tighter than it would if the ski was not pre-stressed.

isn't that coiling? it's not the ski that's pre-stressed, but the core/hips/legs ?

the only time i've seen a ski stressed out was in my basement, when I approached it with a drill

I use drills on my skis all the time.  They don't seem to mind at all.

When banking or inclining, you're bracing against your skis.  Hit an icy patch, and your skis want to slide out from under you.

When angulating, you're balancing over your skis.  Hit that icy patch, and you have a better chance of sliding along with your skis, remaining in balance.  Your skis will also be at bigger edge angles so the sidecut is more effective.

Here's a good drill for angulating.  Right now, reach down and feel that little notch just above your kneecaps.  When on the ski hill, hold both poles together and lay them across your knees nested in those notches, hands on the ends of the poles.  Ski with your poles in this position on various terrain on an easy slope.  Turn, go straight & flat, go across slopes, turn on the slopes, etc., always keeping the poles in those notches above your kneecaps.  Counter as usual.  If you pull the poles out of the notch of your lower leg, notice it, and correct it.  The 2-pole drag is also good.  Drag 2 poles pressed hard into the snow.  If you can't feel the poles bumping along or dragging in the snow, you're cheating.  Add counter--as the turn progresses, counter your upper body so the inside pole is dragging up by the ski tip and the outside pole dragging be the ski tail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy

When banking or inclining, you're bracing against your skis.  Hit an icy patch, and your skis want to slide out from under you.

.

Depends upon your definition of banking vs. inclination.  As I said in an earlier post,  I define them differently.   Banking to me is inclination with upper body rotation which is usually an error, a technical fault.  To make sharper turns at slower speeds (slalom and GS speeds)   we need greater edge angles which means more counter balancing and counter acting (my definition of angulation) to balance over the high edge angles.  At higher speeds seen in SG and DH  we see more inclination with out the huge counter acting movements seen in SL and GS.     See Ron LeMaster    for his take on platform angle.   If the angle between the balance axis and the inside edge of the outside ski (assuming we are not supporting some of our balance over the inside ski)    must be 90 degrees or less.  If the angle is greater than 90 degrees and the snow is icy  (the edge is on the snow but not in the snow)    the ski will slip.   Try this:   While standing still   see how far you can incline the COM  while staying balanced on high edge angles.   Not very far but you do have to angulate a lot.  But add some velocity and centrifugal force to the equation and you can incline further.  YM

did more digging - here's steering in CSIA - from another level 4: the mix of edging and pivoting (as in rotating the feet) that results in turning the skis, which could be more on either side

https://youtu.be/biD-udqLxgc

note the relationship he draws as well between lower edge angles and steering/pivoting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

did more digging - here's steering in CSIA - from another level 4: the mix of edging and pivoting (as in rotating the feet) that results in turning the skis, which could be more on either side

https://youtu.be/biD-udqLxgc

note the relationship he draws as well between lower edge angles and steering/pivoting.

That is a good one.  I have to remember to try this.  Great discussions, even if I lost you guys at the discussion of 1,2,3 and 4 in Razie's pic :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

did more digging - here's steering in CSIA - from another level 4: the mix of edging and pivoting (as in rotating the feet) that results in turning the skis, which could be more on either side

https://youtu.be/biD-udqLxgc

note the relationship he draws as well between lower edge angles and steering/pivoting.

That there is the "steering" that I avoid when carving turns (which is most of the time), although if you are going to steer, I agree you are probably better off pointing the toes than pushing the heels.  Definitely not what to do when you want to make a clean cut.

Note conditions.  Not what I would call champagne, but definitely a big difference from boilerplate or heavy snow.  I wonder how much disagreement in these conditions stems from varying snow condition experience.

are you saying that it would take a lot of champagne to call that champagne?

Reminded me of an old thread on this subject. Lots of good tips and illustrations.

http://www.epicski.com/t/54381/angulation-vs-banking

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

isn't that coiling? it's not the ski that's pre-stressed, but the core/hips/legs ?

the only time i've seen a ski stressed out was in my basement, when I approached it with a drill

Coiling ? holy smokes you'll be quoting Ken Chaddock next. " Align. Balance. Coil." ( good book )

Softsnowguy "When banking or inclining, you're bracing against your skis.  Hit an icy patch, and your skis want to slide out from under you."

Watch the Tina vid. Not much skidding there. She goes from total Inclination to full angulation. Its a spectrum.

Josh Foster is good, for sure.  But ( my hairy But ) I think the ski pivots around the HEEL - closer to the leg's center of rotation. The tip and tail still displace evenly; this is not a heel-push and of course you are not in the back-seat. The reason to pivot the ski is to get your feet crossing your COM's arc sooner. It gives you somewhere to stand.  If you skid; apply some of this rotationi to bring skis across your directioni of travel.

Face the Forces,too.

It is this greater range of motion I seek. From near-weightless-cross-under exit and extending legs long into inclination.

I am then Angulating to continue moving my COM across the ski track. Angulation is part of this movement down-hill. Yeah ?

Then the legs relax;  absorbing the g-forces of cross-under/over.  Cross-over buys more time as I think of it as more up-movement of my COM. Cross-under and my legs get short to absorb and thus can extend sooner to keep contact in inclinationi.

Angulationi is not just to keep an edge on. It is generally easy to keep an edge on stiff boots and sharp skis.

When it is icy; of course i apply more angulation. Don't give up inclination until you have to.

Edited by g-force - 9/29/15 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

note the relationship he draws as well between lower edge angles and steering/pivoting.

That is a good one.  I have to remember to try this.  Great discussions, even if I lost you guys at the discussion of 1,2,3 and 4 in Razie's pic :)

your edge angles are fair enough to not have to worry much about having to work on 3. they're pretty good actually - you got other fish to fry...

i would focus on 1 - tipping 1.5 - one footed balance  2 - angulation and counterbalancing 4 - coiling and then you're ready to start working on your skiing :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

look how from one to two, your upper body does nothing but get lower, from and dumping the hips. not a bad hip dump through and the feet are not excessively shuffled, don't get me wrong, but you use too many large muscles and body parts and one of the results is loss of balance and that's the first thing you really need to get the skis across. no balance, you can't keep the turn going...

that's what i meant that you are edging the skis by dragging them with the hips into inclination as opposed to tipping from the feet/ankles. that big A-frame is telling, the much flatter inside ski is an issue to address.

after you address those, take a look below, for ideas for the future.

compare your turn above with mine below - similar, although dare I say, better ankle tipping - note the parallel shins:

but now compare to this one and i'll let you draw your own conclusions about what you'll need to work on next and how to truly establish the fabled "early inclination":

Quote:
Originally Posted by g-force

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

isn't that coiling? it's not the ski that's pre-stressed, but the core/hips/legs ?

the only time i've seen a ski stressed out was in my basement, when I approached it with a drill

Coiling ? holy smokes you'll be quoting Ken Chaddock next. " Align. Balance. Coil."

like i said before... I also prefer coiling. that's CSCF's view on things :) and it sends a powerful message.

Edited by razie - 9/29/15 at 6:26pm

OHhh. So that's where Ken got coiling from ... Everything is just such a re-hash. double vents or single ? Ski soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

I would start addressing your tipping / edging first. A lot of one ski skiing, at as high an angle as you can - lift the inside ski mid-turn and throughout the turn.

That will improve your balance on the outside ski and then add some angulation drills, dragging the outside pole comes to mind as is touching the outside boot.

Looks likely that you're popping up rather tall in transition as well? Drag both poles for a while. From the middle :)

cheers

Watch this too (informative and entertaining):

cheers

p.s. do you know the phantom javelin? Do a few runs daily for two weekends :) right now you're not really using the feet/ankles, but more like dragging the skis on edge, with the hips. You cannot use your ankles for inversion/eversion - they have no effect with an extended leg - hence the flexing work.

p.s. after that take one aspirin and you're cured! . if not, start again, from the top

Also, don't just do the drills, but focus on working them into your skiing: start a run with 10 turns with the drill, then transition to normal skiing, while still focusing on and exaggerating whatever the drill was teaching you. Otherwise it takes too long to engrain all these....

Wow! I don't know about you but a girl talking about ski technique is so sexy... Funny and interesting... maybe I would try it with even 2 carabiners...

you haven't told me what skis those are - i was on 12m. those look like a cheater GS ?

if you're looking for GS, burn this image into your retina:

it was just posted on the cscf's channel from some camp under the simple caption "coiling !". that's what should happen as the skis come out of the fall line. but that's really an awesome photo, with too many good things going to list now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by g-force

OHhh. So that's where Ken got coiling from ... Everything is just such a re-hash. double vents or single ? Ski soon.

maybe - and they likely got it from somewhere else... good skiing doesn't really change just 'cause we call things differently :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

your edge angles are fair enough to not have to worry much about having to work on 3. they're pretty good actually - you got other fish to fry...

i would focus on 1 - tipping 1.5 - one footed balance  2 - angulation and counterbalancing 4 - coiling and then you're ready to start working on your skiing :)

look how from one to two, your upper body does nothing but get lower, from and dumping the hips. not a bad hip dump through and the feet are not excessively shuffled, don't get me wrong, but you use too many large muscles and body parts and one of the results is loss of balance and that's the first thing you really need to get the skis across. no balance, you can't keep the turn going...

that's what i meant that you are edging the skis by dragging them with the hips into inclination as opposed to tipping from the feet/ankles. that big A-frame is telling, the much flatter inside ski is an issue to address.

I have to admit, some pretty good assumptions made by just looking at a couple of pics.  I believe both pics were on slalom skis (as you may remember this was my first season on slalom skis ever, so I am still getting accustomed to them.  To say they are different is an understatement ---- but rippin fun).  You are right, I definitely use the big muscles to initiate my turns.  Always struggled with the concept of using my ankles since they can't flex sideways.  Thinking about knees works, although when I tried it last season it really felt weird.  I think I get way too upright in transition, which probably causes some issues.  Will attempt to retract between turns; that may help get the inside leg from under me better.  Thinking a bunch of one legged skiing, both outside and inside leg, are in my future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

I would start addressing your tipping / edging first. A lot of one ski skiing, at as high an angle as you can - lift the inside ski mid-turn and throughout the turn.

That will improve your balance on the outside ski and then add some angulation drills, dragging the outside pole comes to mind as is touching the outside boot.

Looks likely that you're popping up rather tall in transition as well? Drag both poles for a while. From the middle :)

cheers

Watch this too (informative and entertaining):

cheers

p.s. do you know the phantom javelin? Do a few runs daily for two weekends :) right now you're not really using the feet/ankles, but more like dragging the skis on edge, with the hips. You cannot use your ankles for inversion/eversion - they have no effect with an extended leg - hence the flexing work.

p.s. after that take one aspirin and you're cured! . if not, start again, from the top

Also, don't just do the drills, but focus on working them into your skiing: start a run with 10 turns with the drill, then transition to normal skiing, while still focusing on and exaggerating whatever the drill was teaching you. Otherwise it takes too long to engrain all these....

This morning,I was mimicking what she is doing with the stick in front of the miror and I could see my hips turning as I was going deeper sideway... I did it a couple of time and I and I finally realized that I definitely lacked flexibility in the hips (especially the right) and my body automatically compensate  by rotating the hips ... Thanks razie ( and Kate)! I will include some stretching in my pre-season preparation!!!

I'm thinking about some drills too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie

you haven't told me what skis those are - i was on 12m. those look like a cheater GS ?

if you're looking for GS, burn this image into your retina:

it was just posted on the cscf's channel from some camp under the simple caption "coiling !". that's what should happen as the skis come out of the fall line. but that's really an awesome photo, with too many good things going to list now...

maybe - and they likely got it from somewhere else... good skiing doesn't really change just 'cause we call things differently :)

Nice picture! Made me do a link with that drill:

Man! If I ski better this year, I will have to buy you a christmas gift!

A thing I realized last year is mirror and videos! You may think that you are doing the right thing but you can also expect  to have big surprises when you see yourself on video for the first time... Beurk! I was so disappointed when I saw myself! So drastically different from the feeling I was having while skiing! I plan to regularly have a friend film me ( or hold a mirror while I'm skiing :-))

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123

You are right, I definitely use the big muscles to initiate my turns.  Always struggled with the concept of using my ankles since they can't flex sideways.  Thinking about knees works, although when I tried it last season it really felt weird.  I think I get way too upright in transition, which probably causes some issues.  Will attempt to retract between turns; that may help get the inside leg from under me better.  Thinking a bunch of one legged skiing, both outside and inside leg, are in my future.

right - i remember - focusing on those will help you bend them more.

it is possible your boots do not leave enough room for the ankle/foot to move slightly. instep/footbed too tight... ? something to think about. try loosening the buckles and see if it does something to your inversion ability.

some reasons why using the ankles is good http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/blog/We_ski_with_the_feet_and_ankles

about retraction - start by thinking "relaxation" i.e. relax the long outside leg and let that drag the hips into the new turn - see it here how the long leg relaxes and becomes short and that is what allows the hips to move down the hill.

cheers

And then there's this, something I had down pat before I began frequenting this form,

"Don't think too much about angulation. Just edge your skis, relax, and let angulation occur naturally."

....................Warren Witherell, 1972 (?).

Which relaxation, to put a fine point on it, does not include contorting oneself in order to feel a pinch on the side of the abdomen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Which relaxation, to put a fine point on it, does not include contorting oneself in order to feel a pinch on the side of the abdomen.

well... well... well... see, now you're pushing it

Some effort must be present. the more athletic the skiing, the more effort. After two-three short runs of korean turns for instance, not only was i gasping for air, but my back simply gave up! and they were not even good korean turns...

WHEN and HOW MUCH, that's the 100\$ question.

proper relaxation can create angulation, sure enough, but at some point you have to use it! that's when some stress/pinch/crunch should be felt.

how much? in direct relation to the relaxation, timing, skill etc... put it this way: the lighter you are on your feet, the more you support them from the core while the heavier you are on your feet, the more the core supports the body. Each results in a different pinching effort.

most non-expert skiers tend to be heavy on their feet...

Hmmmm, I like to think of "lifting" the inside hip as opposed to feeling for a "pinch" on the outside....

zenny

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