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A good deal on the right "fat ski" for Western slush? - Page 4

post #91 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

An all mountain ski is a much better tool for spring skiing than a powder ski. The key to spring skiing is to follow the sun to catch the snow in the fairly brief interval between ice and slush, but it's inevitable that you will encounter both and even when the corn has turned to slush it's only a few inches deep. When all there is slush head for the steepest terrain you can handle. Of course in April in the Rockies you can also find full on winter conditions and powder although the powder will slush up quickly once the sun comes out--that's where a powder ski would be nice to have.

My spring ski is the same as my winter everyday ski--Bonafide. Enforcer seems like a good choice, although I've never skied it. I'm not sure going about 10mm to a fairly similar style ski as your Kendo is worth the expense though. I'd say stick with the Kendo and if you decide you need to go wider go up into the mid 100s with a more powder friendly shape and flex--should be good deals in the spring.

 

A spring structure certainly makes skiing slush easier but I've always been reluctant to restructure my skis for spring and then have to grind them back next season. Maybe some day I'll have a pair of dedicated spring skis. In the meantime when things deteriorate to grab and release slush---I absolutely hate that--it's time for a beer and a sun bath on the deck.

 

Unsolicited internet ski lessons are likely to be ignored.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Levy, please listen. Tuned and waxed is different than base structure. All the wax and tune in the world doewnt matter newrly as much as a base structure for warmer, higher moisture content snow. A 1-3 edge tune will get you nothing in slush, but it will be nice in the morning when it's all refrozen and fast. Neither 1/2 or 1/3 help a ski glide well... Re-read about structure until it's internalized. smile.gif

 

These are two points of view on spring slush.  I hate to structure a ski just for spring, then, in CO, have it be non-optimal the rest of the season.  

 

A spring structure is fairly deep into the base of the ski, in my limited but actual experience.  Prematurely aging a ski (if removed annually).  (And "daily drivers," to me, last many years if base flattened/renewed a la Jacque vidoes or using ski visions tools (or maybe even the Winterwhatsit machine).  

 

If I lived back East now, or in Calif., it would be different. But here, unless you're a competitive racer and need the edge, I don't think the structuring is necessary if you have the right wax(es).  And that's not always easy.  Mornings in spring are cold; refrozen.  And by 11 or so it's slush.  What will work across such a spectrum besides structuring?  (Which is actually only for after the slush gums up, and causes those sudden lurches.)  

 

Briko-Maplus Race Base Soft (HydroCarbon wax), with a bit of 60/40 Race Base Medium and Soft combined, with just Soft in the center, 40/60 on the edges.  Last spring, for me, no stick until A Basin closing, mid-June.  And my base structure is the semi-smooth on it when I bought it (which is optimal for Powder.)

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier31 View Post


How do those 2 ski 220-240 days a year? That is amazing.

They ski A Basin early and late, and miss less than 10 days a season, maybe less than 5.  

post #93 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski otter View Post

They ski A Basin early and late, and miss less than 10 days a season, maybe less than 5.  
Good for them. That is awesome.
post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post
 

Aspen slush, around April 2nd 2016

 

April 2nd in Aspen. No big deal.

If you are out there for a month then regrind. Otherwise. just ski your ski as is. 

 

The sticky fly paper, elmer glue stuff usually happens when fresh snow mixes with old and doesn't freeze up some nights. Usually happens out west. Not much in the NE. Worst case scenario rub on some F4 in the morning and after lunch.  

post #95 of 115
And to clarify, I don't have some crazy special base grind JUST for spring, but a general one that's suited to our usual condtions supplemented with a regular waxing regiment.... And what King Grump said above about non-isothermic snow. Levy, don't over think this. You have the technology. Just go skiing. smile.gif
post #96 of 115
Thread Starter 
As a backup because believe me I hate to pole around any resort I've never thought that rub on wax worked. If so is there a Dominator Wax that would work?
post #97 of 115
Thread Starter 
Me, overthinking!
post #98 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

As a backup because believe me I hate to pole around any resort I've never thought that rub on wax worked. If so is there a Dominator Wax that would work?

Levy, I am probably not nearly as diligent about waxing my skis as Marko. I have never come close to poling around the resort. I think Marko said don't overthink this. He is right.
post #99 of 115

I'm sure you will be able to skate around the resort without problem.  The slush is only a problem when skiing on well drained snow and you ski into slush puddles (or actually water puddles with the water just under the snow surface). It's the sudden braking that's a problem. 

 

I would wait until in your actual experience it becomes a problem you want to fix (for example all that sudden stopping is wearing out your knees, tiring you out etc.), then put on the spring grind on one pair, any pair, of your skis, and keep that ski ground that way for the next day with that same problem.

post #100 of 115
Thread Starter 

Sounds good

post #101 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

As a backup because believe me I hate to pole around any resort I've never thought that rub on wax worked. If so is there a Dominator Wax that would work?

 

The Q products are their overlays and run $150 for 20 grams. Very pricey. The wax I use is Sliq, was made in Aspen, I think and all mine was swag from racing. It is just a high fluro rub on. I crayon it then buff it with my glove or a cork if I have one with me. You can do the same thing with hot wax products. A high fluro rubbed and buffed will give you a run or two of good performance. Often that is all you need. I highly recommend the Zoom Thermoactive. A 400gm brick is about $50. Break/cut off a piece, keep it in your pocket and rub on as necessary. A cork or synthetic cork will relieve you from having to use your gloves to rub it in. The rubbing heats the wax to enhance it sticking and spreading. I like to keep a flat edge for rubbing as it gets wax over more of the ski.

 

The wax on the bottom was rubbed on the flat surface (good), the zig-zag on the top was from the sharp corner (bad). The wax is Toko Yellow Dibloc LF. It is pretty soft. Then just cork it in and go.

This advice isn't in line with not over-thinking it, but it is also pretty cheap and low tech. I've done this kind of a wax job on the slopes in a few minutes and kept friends from quitting for the day to staying for a while longer. It is easy and effective.

 

Also, if you begin to stick on a run, try another run! :-) Spring skiing, as has been mentioned, is about thinking about where the snow will just be warming up and turning to a thin layer of corn. You move around the mountain chasing this elusive layer which is part of the fun of spring skiing. Finding the next best thing.

post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

We have answered it empirically.    The question was what was the drag to lift ratio, and we provided a datapoint of tan(slope angle) cos(10)   Which, if the take the blue/green bits at somewhere ~8.5 degrees is about  14-15%.     For a 200 lb guy that comes to about 30 lbs of drag, which is relatively close to the figure Ghost had come up with earlier. 

At the risk of driving this thoroughly into the ground, that is only half of the answer, or maybe a third of it. 30 lbs of drag assumes what, a completely smooth, unstructured base? But the question is about the difference between that base and a typical deep spring structured base. But like I said, its ok if it doesn't get answered. I'm not even sure beyond posed it as any more than a hypothetical for the purpose of questioning whether a spring base is worth it. I concluded that it is (with caveats) and beyond seems inclined to think not.  That's ok too.

post #103 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

As a backup because believe me I hate to pole around any resort I've never thought that rub on wax worked. If so is there a Dominator Wax that would work?

The Q products are their overlays and run $150 for 20 grams. Very pricey. The wax I use is Sliq, was made in Aspen, I think and all mine was swag from racing. It is just a high fluro rub on. I crayon it then buff it with my glove or a cork if I have one with me. You can do the same thing with hot wax products. A high fluro rubbed and buffed will give you a run or two of good performance. Often that is all you need. I highly recommend the Zoom Thermoactive. A 400gm brick is about $50. Break/cut off a piece, keep it in your pocket and rub on as necessary. A cork or synthetic cork will relieve you from having to use your gloves to rub it in. The rubbing heats the wax to enhance it sticking and spreading. I like to keep a flat edge for rubbing as it gets wax over more of the ski.

The wax on the bottom was rubbed on the flat surface (good), the zig-zag on the top was from the sharp corner (bad). The wax is Toko Yellow Dibloc LF. It is pretty soft. Then just cork it in and go.


This advice isn't in line with not over-thinking it, but it is also pretty cheap and low tech. I've done this kind of a wax job on the slopes in a few minutes and kept friends from quitting for the day to staying for a while longer. It is easy and effective.

Also, if you begin to stick on a run, try another run! :-) Spring skiing, as has been mentioned, is about thinking about where the snow will just be warming up and turning to a thin layer of corn. You move around the mountain chasing this elusive layer which is part of the fun of spring skiing. Finding the next best thing.
Great idea I'll add that to my backpack
post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by afterburn View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

We have answered it empirically.    The question was what was the drag to lift ratio, and we provided a datapoint of tan(slope angle) cos(10)   Which, if the take the blue/green bits at somewhere ~8.5 degrees is about  14-15%.     For a 200 lb guy that comes to about 30 lbs of drag, which is relatively close to the figure Ghost had come up with earlier. 

At the risk of driving this thoroughly into the ground, that is only half of the answer, or maybe a third of it. 30 lbs of drag assumes what, a completely smooth, unstructured base? But the question is about the difference between that base and a typical deep spring structured base. But like I said, its ok if it doesn't get answered. I'm not even sure beyond posed it as any more than a hypothetical for the purpose of questioning whether a spring base is worth it. I concluded that it is (with caveats) and beyond seems inclined to think not.  That's ok too.

 

Well,  I gave the figure for a deep structured base in winter snow; Ghost gave the figure for an unstructured base in slush - he didn't give us a lift figure. 

post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by levy1 View Post

As a backup because believe me I hate to pole around any resort I've never thought that rub on wax worked. If so is there a Dominator Wax that would work?

 

Yes.   Butter. 

 

Cork or fibertex it in and brush it out.   You don't want anywhere near the amount of Butter on the surface as MR shows with the wax in his pic; you want the bases to look black but iridescently glossy.     Rainbow shimmer is good. 


Edited by cantunamunch - 9/25/15 at 11:33am
post #106 of 115
Zardoz NoWax is far supieror to anthing else I've used. It completely eliminates the sticking problem.smile.gif
post #107 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I'm sure you will be able to skate around the resort without problem.  The slush is only a problem when skiing on well drained snow and you ski into slush puddles (or actually water puddles with the water just under the snow surface). It's the sudden braking that's a problem. 

 

 

Not talking about water puddles. The snow itself is suckie. Even on really steep slopes. Don't see it much in the NE. 

 

Few years ago, I watched a group of instructors doing their L3 certs at Squaw in April. They look like they were doing 70's disco moves with the flashing black light. Herky jerky doesn't even begin to describe it. It was actually painful to watch.     

post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by afterburn View Post
 

That is why I bought a pair of rock skis (cheap) and keep them coarsely structured. 

We may have a winnah!! 

 

Seriously, if I anticipated skiing a lot of mank (I tend to call it a day when the spring crud gets super heavy after 1 pm, and call it a season when it gets too ridiculous in the am), I'd get a pair of demos that were wide and fairly stiff, I'd crucify them over a belt sander to create a nice cheap coarse base, I'd put high temp wax on them, and I'd use them to surf on. Wide as in >110. Stiff as in stiff enough for my weight that the piles of afternoon mank won't bring me to a halt. And then I'd ski fast, cuz I've also had the experience of slewing to a halt at low pitches in wet snow. Plenty. 

 

The 14-15% datum is cool. And useful. See, we can actually figure stuff out here! Still unclear about comparing grinds, since we're just extrapolating to Ghost's good guess, but suspect grind not gonna give up numbers until someone does an experiment next April on old skis, before and after a deep structure, same run, same path, timed. 


Edited by beyond - 9/25/15 at 5:31pm
post #109 of 115
WC techs and manufactures I'm sure have quite good numbers. Doubt if we'll see them published any time soon.smile.gif
post #110 of 115

For Levy1, ironing on your own wax while traveling may be too much.  Dunno.  So this post is also meant for Colorado springtime skiing in general.  

 

It gives again just one way that works regardless of ski structure. 

 

In my limited experience, Dominator Butter works great in the afternoon once the slush hits, maybe not so much when it's still freezing up on those groomers in the a.m. first chair?  Jacques swears by it and even has a youtube video for optimal application:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBCvK-TS8WI

 

For me the problem with it happens once Jacques advises to put on the chemical barrier gloves to work with its high fluoro, etc.  I've had enough chemical work-related exposure already; don't need to do it for retirement.

 

Ditto the Zardoz Nowax.  It works wonderfully, for a run or two.  Then wears off quickly.  You can just re-apply, no problem.  But it gets on my gloves and clothes, and feels weird on my fingers, slicky.  Teflon? Dunno.  Anything I touch gets slightly slicked, including car doors and ski poles.  So I stopped using it too.

 

Again, Briko-Maplus (hydro-carbon) Soft plus 40/60 Soft/Medium on even a semi-smooth or very lightly structured (for powder or new ski) base works great, in my experience so far.  Durable.  Only two springs at A Basin with it, but ~30-40 days.  No stick, very fast.  In spring I usually quit around 2-3 pm, so not a full day test quite, but still. I purposely went full day a few times just to test the stuff.:)  In my experience it is faster than the Race Base Medium is during the regular season, and lasts almost as long, I'd guess (maybe twice as long as other waxes?).  

 

I've been told that Saucer Wax lasts about as long as the Maplus, but haven't tried it yet.  

 

Crayon on the red Race Base Soft, then crayon on the 40/60 Soft/Medium (maroon) on top and especially on the outside inch each side, iron in, scrape, etc.  It lasts all day, probably two days also.  (I'm a wax every day guy, usually, with other waxes.)  The Medium wax is harder and protects the Soft.  (Similar to what happens with Dominator Renew, I'd guess.)

 

I think durability is a part of why the Maplus works: the Medium (blue/maroon) is harder, and - again - it lasts twice as long as the other waxes I've used. (Toko, Swix, Hertel, Butter, No Wax, others).   Other folks on Epic have recommended Briko-Maplus also, more generally.  It's an Italian wax.  

 

Terry of SlideWright in Durango is the U.S. Distributor, I understand, and retail seller of the stuff online.  An Epicski sponsor, or at least has been.  Great dealing with him, and he's good at wax info.  Lots of waxing threads with his comments on Epic.  

 

Sorry to belabor this.  For me it's been a real breakthrough, and I wanted to share.  

post #111 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski otter View Post
 

For Levy1, ironing on your own wax while traveling may be too much.  Dunno.  

 

Piece o' cake. Get a portable ski wax iron, they're tiny, and fold up. Get your brakes up with a rubber band, and suspend the skis upside down between two hotel beds. Dribble the wax on, iron it. Use a wax tool or any sharp edged piece of plastic to scrape. Then brush it if you wish. All your tools should not take up more room than both hands cupped together. 

 

No, not as elegant or precise or professional looking as using a bench with all the usual tools. But gets it done, more or less, over one can of Fosters. 

 

Hotels get p*ssed if you drip too much wax on the floor or grind the shavings in. Newspapers may be a plan if you're innately sloppy. 

post #112 of 115
Thread Starter 
Those days of messing up the hotel room are far over and I do get sloppy. Now if I'm driving I may take my portable bench and set it up on the balcony.
post #113 of 115

If the balcony has two chairs youre golden. I use the two flat railings on either side of a corner at the house. Of course, the drop is about 3 foot into grass (or snow) if I lose one, which I've never done. On the other hand, if you are more than a few feet off the ground, might not be worth the risk . . . 

post #114 of 115

P.S. If you are familiar with the Briko Medium Race Base wax, they have a slightly different procedure outlined in the Briko-Maplus guide book you can read on SlideWright ski website.  I forget, but they suggest you wait at least 30 minutes for the wax to set (so it doesn't become part base cleaner, part wax), then scrape slightly warm.  For me, if I start scraping and the wax is brittle and cracks, then I run a warm iron over it just hot enough to remelt the cracks, then scrape while a bit warm still.   

 

This is a similar procedure to what works for the slightly brittle Swix cold waxes, e.g., Swix 4 (and other brand cold weather waxes also, I'll bet). 

post #115 of 115

I am advanced skier been skiing for over 25 years, eastern skier trips out west. Been riding Dynastars most skiing years tried pair Blizzards Cochise flip core 108 under feet couple years ago just love these skis.They say they improved them this year, don't know how they could improve on such great ski. They are fat ski you can carve GS turns on hard pack, even ice.

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