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Anatomy of a Turn: German Style contrast with the CSIA stuff floating around here, real diff yes, no, maybe

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 27

Big hop and some wicked pole drag... and should I mention the 'A' frame?  Rather ugly.

post #3 of 27

You can tell all that from one turn? 

Wow, you are good.:rolleyes 

post #4 of 27

Well... he has to be good. After all, that's his first post since he joined here a year ago.

post #5 of 27
Who the heck did Felix learn to ski from? His mom or something? roflmao.gif
post #6 of 27

Is he good enough to be a member of DSLV? :D

 

I think sh*t like this is how wars get started. :nono:

post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrpeterson View Post
 

Big hop and some wicked pole drag... and should I mention the 'A' frame?  Rather ugly.

teutonics teach pole drag

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Who the heck did Felix learn to ski from? His mom or something? roflmao.gif

Mamma Merkel, tough as they make 'em

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

Is he good enough to be a member of DSLV? :D

 

I think sh*t like this is how wars get started. :nono:

!!:eek!! world #2 slalom or somethin' ain't he

post #8 of 27

I think all the poster know who he is, hence the oblique references. Maybe with the exception Mr. Peterson. :rolleyes

 

Comparing a German WC racer to CSIA is doing the apple & orange thing. Perhaps a couple of appropriate videos from the recent Ushuaia Interski meet would be more suitable.  

post #9 of 27
mr. t, you know who Felix's momma is, don't you?
post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

I think all the poster know who he is, hence the oblique references. Maybe with the exception Mr. Peterson. :rolleyes

 

Comparing a German WC racer to CSIA is doing the apple & orange thing. Perhaps a couple of appropriate videos from the recent Ushuaia Interski meet would be more suitable.  

Style diff with csia vids all folks here keep posting, wanted to see how the pros see it. Teutonics rise to the turn 'n load factor huge,  felix the cat's freeskiing, spring-loaded, dude looks smooth, looks like Bode when he's freeskiing. CSIA guys look like they rotate their legs, just different strokes for different folks, yes?

 

And KG, ya g0otta admit, all the pros post images and vids of world cup racers 'n then show instruction vids from csia and maybe psia, I am not sure always who is who and from where, mean Marcel Hirscher and Ted Carver vids are every where here, posted by pros 'n those are in races man, races, 'n then i see this CSIA stuff following as advice, which seems like apples 'n oranges to me pal. The advice is good , often great but the style, oh man, the style, you'll never look like felix if you follow that stuff, is what i thought and i could be real wrong sure. Felix is just having fun, looks just like Bode freeskiing to me, and nothing like any of the CSIA instruction vids. So KG, maybe, just maybe, fair opinion solicit, no?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

mr. t, you know who Felix's momma is, don't you?

Did not till i saw post, thanks man. Wow-whoa, some Momma, featherweight world 'n olympic champ too, gotta ski teutonic style lots of pressure loading, 'n her boy skis one fun turn so frikkin dynamic,

 

The other recent csia vids folks goin' on about curious how pros see it. Who'd you wanna LOOK like, ski like , felix or those videos folks been showing this summer? I'd want Felix turns , not those ole man turns. To get hi felix performance, right, to look like felix one loads in a turn, and flies up or somethin' like that.

 

Gratitude, did not know his mama, now i do so Mjp, owe you one

post #11 of 27

While I'll admit to being a lurker since joining, not sure it really matters who the skier is - I think the elements I pointed out are valid in terms of efficient skiing, regardless of nationality.

 

Bill

post #12 of 27

I gotta work on my a-framing, pole dragging and hop turns.  :beercheer:  Dude is ripping.

post #13 of 27

I will also point out - in a thread about turn technique, the one guy who even offered an analysis of the video is being attacked for doing so.  

 

Pretty much the only substantive reply to my post is that the Germans are taught to drag their poles - that may be so, but in this very forum (http://www.epicski.com/t/81062/dragging-the-inside-pole) the practice is rightly criticized. 

 

Whatever guys... ski how you want.  I do.  Felix does.  Of course, Felix has a legion of coaches to help him improve - maybe this season he comes out on top.

 

Bill

post #14 of 27

I'd not use this turn as a representation of a German model.  It's one turn.  Great German skiers, like most great skiers, use many types of turns.

 

I'm seeing the launching off the snow as not so much a hop, but rather an outcome arising from not being overly concerned about controlling the end of the turn effects of rebound, vaulting, and the virtual bump.  

 

The knee angulation (A frame_ is most pronounced as he enters and goes through the transition.  It appears he used a bit of oversteering via outside ski tipping to help initiate the transition.  This actually contributes to the disconnecting with the snow.

 

I don't really see any of those things as a flaw in his skiing, it's just what he chose to do for that particular turn.  It's all good.  In fact, launching like that is quite fun.  

post #15 of 27

  Here's some nice Felix footage, for those interested...pretty sure the first vid in the OP was shot just for the joy of skiing, and I agree with Rick that the launch looks fun! :-)

 

 

 

  zenny

post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by simontemplar View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

I think all the poster know who he is, hence the oblique references. Maybe with the exception Mr. Peterson. :rolleyes

 

Comparing a German WC racer to CSIA is doing the apple & orange thing. Perhaps a couple of appropriate videos from the recent Ushuaia Interski meet would be more suitable.  

Style diff with csia vids all folks here keep posting, wanted to see how the pros see it. Teutonics rise to the turn 'n load factor huge,  felix the cat's freeskiing, spring-loaded, dude looks smooth, looks like Bode when he's freeskiing. CSIA guys look like they rotate their legs, just different strokes for different folks, yes?

 

And KG, ya g0otta admit, all the pros post images and vids of world cup racers 'n then show instruction vids from csia and maybe psia, I am not sure always who is who and from where, mean Marcel Hirscher and Ted Carver vids are every where here, posted by pros 'n those are in races man, races, 'n then i see this CSIA stuff following as advice, which seems like apples 'n oranges to me pal. The advice is good , often great but the style, oh man, the style, you'll never look like felix if you follow that stuff, is what i thought and i could be real wrong sure. Felix is just having fun, looks just like Bode freeskiing to me, and nothing like any of the CSIA instruction vids. So KG, maybe, just maybe, fair opinion solicit, no?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

mr. t, you know who Felix's momma is, don't you?

Did not till i saw post, thanks man. Wow-whoa, some Momma, featherweight world 'n olympic champ too, gotta ski teutonic style lots of pressure loading, 'n her boy skis one fun turn so frikkin dynamic,

 

The other recent csia vids folks goin' on about curious how pros see it. Who'd you wanna LOOK like, ski like , felix or those videos folks been showing this summer? I'd want Felix turns , not those ole man turns. To get hi felix performance, right, to look like felix one loads in a turn, and flies up or somethin' like that.

 

Gratitude, did not know his mama, now i do so Mjp, owe you one


Hmm....

I think his dad helped a little too.

post #17 of 27

Dads never get any of the credit. Never ever. :rolleyes 

post #18 of 27

Not sure what your original question was, SimonTemplar, although your title suggests that you think Neureuther's turn in the video clip is somehow fundamentally different from the turns contemporary instructors teach. Correct?

 

First, we must all recognize the truth of what Rick said--that one single turn and a transition by one of the world's best skiers certainly does not define "how he skis." It's simply how he skied that one turn, nothing more, and a skier of Neureuther's caliber certainly can make about any sort of turn and movements he chooses or needs to suit his circumstances and whims. Developing the skill and versatility to do that is a primary goal for every competent instructor I know, CSIA or otherwise, so no contradiction with good instruction there.

 

That said, the fundamentals of what Neureuther did in that one turn demonstrate many principles that we've discussed at great length, many times here at EpicSki. Some of these things may still not be well understood by many skiers, including instructors, and may remain controversial as a result (see this current thread, for example). In particular, the "opening" (reduction of dorsiflexion) of Neureuther's ankles as he explodes out of the turn and as his skis become airborne may conflict with what many people think should happen in a transition. The common dogma, for eons now, is that we need to "move our body forward along the length of the ski" in the transition, while Neureuther's move shows his feet and skis moving forward (in the direction they're pointing) in relation to his body in that phase. His skis are literally moving across the hill faster than his body is, although we can clearly also see his body moving down the hill faster than his skis at the same time. This move, which I have long dubbed the "X-Move" (in a nod to its apparent mysteriousness, as well as its descriptiveness of the crossing of the two paths of the body and feet in the transition), is a fundamental component of all good offensive turns, at any speed--differing in intensity and range of motion, but not in fundamental character, at lower speed.

 

Many modern instructors do recognize this principle and bring it into their teaching when appropriate. Many remain stuck in conventional dogma and do not. So whether it "contrasts with the CSIA stuff floating around here" or not depends, I suppose, on what CSIA (or any other affiliation) instructor you're speaking with. In my mind, the turn in the video clip is a great turn, and you can see the same principle in most of the turns in Zentune's video clip in post #15.

 

Regarding "pole drag," poles in contact with the snow provide additional sensory input as to orientation in space (degree of inclination, for example), snow texture, and who knows what else. They're feelers. Most good skiers use them that way, at least at times, and deliberately dragging your poles is one of the best "tricks" I know for skiing in a whiteout, where that may be all the sensory input you're going to get. On the other hand, like most good things, over-reliance on it can become a crutch and a liability. As in instructor, I'm as inclined to suggest skiing without poles at times as I am to suggest intentionally dragging them at others. It's not if--it's when. But no contradiction, again, with modern teaching of experienced and competent instructors.

 

A-frames happen. Sometimes they can indicate an alignment and equipment setup issue ("underedged," or "undercanted"), or a movement issue (insufficient or inaccurate activity of the inside leg, or excessive rotation of the hips and upper body). But often, especially at very high edge angles (inclination and angulation), they just happen. I don't see it as an issue in Neureuther's skiing, and his results don't usually indicate a problem either.

 

That's my take on it. It's good skiing, in my opinion, as you'd expect. It does not represent every turn Neureuther makes, and it does include components that some may not understand or endorse. But it's one great turn, and I'll bet he enjoyed it!

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Not sure what your original question was, SimonTemplar, although your title suggests that you think Neureuther's turn in the video clip is somehow fundamentally different from the turns contemporary instructors teach. Correct? yeah right on

 

First, we must all recognize the truth of what Rick said--that one single turn and a transition by one of the world's best skiers certainly does not define "how he skis." It's simply how he skied that one turn, nothing more, and a skier of Neureuther's caliber certainly can make about any sort of turn and movements he chooses or needs to suit his circumstances and whims. course with you , but gotta admit folks esp instruction post one frame or 8 'n spend a lotto time discussing, helpful but often cant separate wheat from chaff , amateur 'n pro , felix gave one full-on play turn, and ya agree, looked fab Developing the skill and versatility to do that is a primary goal for every competent instructor I know, CSIA or otherwise, so no contradiction with good instruction there. 

 

That said, the fundamentals of what Neureuther did in that one turn demonstrate many principles that we've discussed at great length, many times here at EpicSki. Some of these things may still not be well understood by many skiers, including instructors, and may remain controversial as a result (see this current thread, for example). In particular, the "opening" (reduction of dorsiflexion) of Neureuther's ankles as he explodes out of the turn and as his skis become airborne may conflict with what many people think should happen in a transition.  you feelin' it sure like i was sayin' 'n asking why ?  The common dogma, for eons now, is that we need to "move our body forward along the length of the ski" in the transition, while Neureuther's move shows his feet and skis moving forward (in the direction they're pointing) in relation to his body in that phase. His skis are literally moving across the hill faster than his body is, although we can clearly also see his body moving down the hill faster than his skis at the same time. This move, which I have long dubbed the "X-Move" (in a nod to its apparent mysteriousness, as well as its descriptiveness of the crossing of the two paths of the body and feet in the transition), is a fundamental component of all good offensive turns, at any speed--differing in intensity and range of motion, but not in fundamental character, at lower speed. it's what i see but not in vids like one below so am v confused

like this is my meaning 'n its one sample great skiers bu..t nary a one showing felix moves , cool skiing smooth seem low loading 'X-move' aint happening, dunno cant see it but i a'int no expert , this is the question why ?

 

 

 

Many modern instructors do recognize this principle and bring it into their teaching when appropriate. Many remain stuck in conventional dogma and do not. So whether it "contrasts with the CSIA stuff floating around here" or not depends, I suppose, on what CSIA (or any other affiliation) instructor you're speaking with. In my mind, the turn in the video clip is a great turn, and you can see the same principle in most of the turns in Zentune's video clip in post #15. felix is relaxistically explosive

 

Regarding "pole drag," poles in contact with the snow provide additional sensory input as to orientation in space (degree of inclination, for example), snow texture, and who knows what else. They're feelers. My man! Most good skiers use them that way, at least at times, halleulah and deliberately dragging your poles is one of the best "tricks" I know for skiing in a whiteout, where that may be all the sensory input you're going to get. On the other hand, like most good things, over-reliance on it can become a crutch and a liability. As in instructor, I'm as inclined to suggest skiing without poles at times as I am to suggest intentionally dragging them at others. It's not if--it's when. But no contradiction, again, with modern teaching of experienced and competent instructors.

 

A-frames happen. Sometimes they can indicate an alignment and equipment setup issue ("underedged," or "undercanted"), or a movement issue (insufficient or inaccurate activity of the inside leg, or excessive rotation of the hips and upper body). But often, especially at very high edge angles (inclination and angulation), they just happen. I don't see it as an issue in Neureuther's skiing, and his results don't usually indicate a problem either.

 

That's my take on it. It's good skiing, in my opinion, as you'd expect. It does not represent every turn Neureuther makes, sure and it does include components that some may not understand or endorse. But it's one great turn, and I'll bet he enjoyed it!

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

thanks man, ya said it better than i could and mark showed me felix's mama is a slammer jammer on skis!

 

post #20 of 27

Hi SimonTemplar--thanks for the reply. I think we're in basic agreement, then. There is a wide range of understanding (and misunderstanding) among instructors, even at the "highest" levels. I blame it more on individuality and human nature than on any instructor association, because ultimately, it is individuals who teach skiing, not associations. Most national associations focus on developing wide-ranging skills and understanding these days, as opposed to insisting a specific "right" "final form" technique. They attempt to train instructors with a foundation of understanding and ability to identify specific individual needs and to target those needs with progressions and focus to suit. They (attempt to) train instructors not to memorize a rote progression with a single "final form" technique outcome, but to create unique progressions targeted toward specific and unique needs of individual students. 

 

That is not to say, of course, that the "official" plan is what you always see on the hill. Indeed, unfortunately, the opposite is quite true, as we continue to see way too much misinformation and false or obsolete dogma spread thick from instructors at all levels. There are many reasons, mostly just the outcome of human nature that causes understanding and communication problems in every walk of life. "Groupthink" runs rampant in instructor circles, as in any close group, impeding questioning and exploration of conflicting ideas in favor of "harmony" and consistency--severely stunting innovation and ensuring that "conventional wisdom," right or wrong, remains nearly impossible to dislodge. "The biggest problem with instructors and coaches worldwide, in every sport," says renowned tennis coach Warren Pretorius, "is that we all agree with each other." I agree!

 

Many instructors are very knowledgeable. But failure to differentiate between "knowledge" and "understanding" causes many knowledgeable instructors to avoid questioning, to fall victim to confirmation bias, seeking evidence that supports their belief system with an uncanny ability to screen out and somehow "not see" evidence that conflicts. Knowledge, in my mind, is worth almost nothing. You can "know" all sorts of falsehoods, and never know you're wrong if you don't seek to understand. Question everything, I've often said. Few instructors do, unfortunately.

 

So you're right, SimonTemplar, that the great skiing and movements we see in Neureuther's single turn (and in his full runs as well) do conflict with much of the unquestioned "knowledge" and deeply-held belief systems of many instructors. I agree that, even in the video clip you posted, with three very good skiers, there are misunderstandings evident in their skiing. In particular, there is more lateral "shoving" of their skis than may be ideal, later in the first half of their turns as they seek high edge angles, very likely due to a misunderstanding of the "X-Move" principles and to an attempt to move their bodies too much "forward" (in the direction of the skis) in the transition. Since the feet and skis obviously need to move farther across the hill than the body in the transitions of turns (because their paths move outside the path of the body as the skier inclines into a turn), the feet and skis must move across the hill faster than the body in the transition. The "conventional wisdom" of moving the body/hips/center of mass forward of the feet, along the length of the ski, in the transition precludes this necessary outcome, delaying the clean edge engagement with strong and early inclination, and often requiring the skier to push his skis sideways later to acquire the necessary arrangement of the feet well outside the path of the body. I suspect that this is what you're seeing in the film trailer you linked to. The skiers achieve extraordinary edge angles, but their early engagement is not as clean or progressive as that of Neureuther. 

 

Good eye!

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Hi SimonTemplar--thanks for the reply. I think we're in basic agreement, then. There is a wide range of understanding (and misunderstanding) among instructors, even at the "highest" levels. I blame it more on individuality and human nature than on any instructor association, because ultimately, it is individuals who teach skiing, not associations. Most national associations focus on developing wide-ranging skills and understanding these days, as opposed to insisting a specific "right" "final form" technique. They attempt to train instructors with a foundation of understanding and ability to identify specific individual needs and to target those needs with progressions and focus to suit. They (attempt to) train instructors not to memorize a rote progression with a single "final form" technique outcome, but to create unique progressions targeted toward specific and unique needs of individual students. 

 

That is not to say, of course, that the "official" plan is what you always see on the hill. Indeed, unfortunately, the opposite is quite true, as we continue to see way too much misinformation and false or obsolete dogma spread thick from instructors at all levels. There are many reasons, mostly just the outcome of human nature that causes understanding and communication problems in every walk of life. "Groupthink" runs rampant in instructor circles, as in any close group, impeding questioning and exploration of conflicting ideas in favor of "harmony" and consistency--severely stunting innovation and ensuring that "conventional wisdom," right or wrong, remains nearly impossible to dislodge. "The biggest problem with instructors and coaches worldwide, in every sport," says renowned tennis coach Warren Pretorius, "is that we all agree with each other." I agree!

 

Many instructors are very knowledgeable. But failure to differentiate between "knowledge" and "understanding" causes many knowledgeable instructors to avoid questioning, to fall victim to confirmation bias, seeking evidence that supports their belief system with an uncanny ability to screen out and somehow "not see" evidence that conflicts. Knowledge, in my mind, is worth almost nothing. You can "know" all sorts of falsehoods, and never know you're wrong if you don't seek to understand. Question everything, I've often said. Few instructors do, unfortunately.

 

So you're right, SimonTemplar, that the great skiing and movements we see in Neureuther's single turn (and in his full runs as well) do conflict with much of the unquestioned "knowledge" and deeply-held belief systems of many instructors. I agree that, even in the video clip you posted, with three very good skiers, there are misunderstandings evident in their skiing. In particular, there is more lateral "shoving" of their skis than may be ideal, later in the first half of their turns as they seek high edge angles, very likely due to a misunderstanding of the "X-Move" principles and to an attempt to move their bodies too much "forward" (in the direction of the skis) in the transition. Since the feet and skis obviously need to move farther across the hill than the body in the transitions of turns (because their paths move outside the path of the body as the skier inclines into a turn), the feet and skis must move across the hill faster than the body in the transition. The "conventional wisdom" of moving the body/hips/center of mass forward of the feet, along the length of the ski, in the transition precludes this necessary outcome, delaying the clean edge engagement with strong and early inclination, and often requiring the skier to push his skis sideways later to acquire the necessary arrangement of the feet well outside the path of the body. I suspect that this is what you're seeing in the film trailer you linked to. The skiers achieve extraordinary edge angles, but their early engagement is not as clean or progressive as that of Neureuther. 

 

Good eye!

 

Best regards,

Bob

This all sounds very nice.  Sort of in the "progressive"  educational mindset that has been an extension of the liberal thinking that began as a result of the free thinking seventies.  However, most skiers do not have the physical talent, time or  experience  to discover or rediscover  the "best technique"  or technical  solutions  for  the  tactical problems that skiing presents, therefore, an instructor or coach becomes an aid in the learning/training  process which  shortens the learning process and hopefully keeps the student from making too many dead end detours in their quest for proficiency as a skier.    When you say  "conventional wisdom"  whose convention is it?    I have always been an advocate of choosing your instructors/coaches very carefully and this applies to all activities, not just skiing.   Looking across the spectrum of skiers visible at any given ski area, it is possible to identify groups of skiers based on their experience.   Ski racers, ski instructors and self taught  are three groups that come to mind as having a style or technique which is identifiable as a group.  Ski racers typically look  and ski like racers and ski instructors are often visible by the way they ski.   Who do you want to be your model?   If I buy a lesson, what exactly am I buying?   I expect  I'm getting  advice from  someone who is more experienced than me,  someone who knows what to do.  But if the advice is wrong,  then where am I?   YM

 

 

Beware the seeker of disciples

the missionary

the pusher

all proselytizing men

all who claim that they have found

the path to heaven.

 

For the sound of their words

is the silence of their doubt.

 

The allegory of your conversion

sustains them through their uncertainty.

 

Persuading you, they struggle

to persuade themselves.

 

They need you

as they saw you need them:

there is a symmetry they do not mention

in their sermon

or in the meeting

near the secret door.

 

As you suspect each one of them

be wary also of these words,

for I, dissuading you,

obtain new evidence

that there is no shortcut,

no path at all,

no destination.

 

Peter Goblen from Don't Push The River  by  Barry Stevens

post #22 of 27

Interesting poem for morning coffee contemplation.

post #23 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

Hi SimonTemplar--thanks for the reply. I think we're in basic agreement, then. There is a wide range of understanding (and misunderstanding) among instructors, even at the "highest" levels. ..... but to create unique progressions targeted toward specific and unique needs of individual students. 

 

.... "Groupthink" runs rampant in instructor circles, as in any close group, impeding questioning and exploration of conflicting ideas in favor of "harmony" and consistency--severely stunting innovation and ensuring that "conventional wisdom," right or wrong, remains nearly impossible to dislodge. "The biggest problem with instructors and coaches worldwide, in every sport," says renowned tennis coach Warren Pretorius, "is that we all agree with each other." I agree!

 

Many instructors are very knowledgeable. .....

 

So you're right, SimonTemplar, that the great skiing and movements we see in Neureuther's single turn (and in his full runs as well) do conflict with much of the unquestioned "knowledge" and deeply-held belief systems of many instructors. I agree that, even in the video clip you posted, with three very good skiers, there are misunderstandings evident in their skiing. In particular, there is more lateral "shoving" of their skis than may be ideal, later in the first half of their turns as they seek high edge angles, very likely due to a misunderstanding of the "X-Move" principles and to an attempt to move their bodies too much "forward" (in the direction of the skis) in the transition. Since the feet and skis obviously need to move farther across the hill than the body in the transitions of turns (because their paths move outside the path of the body as the skier inclines into a turn), the feet and skis must move across the hill faster than the body in the transition. The "conventional wisdom" of moving the body/hips/center of mass forward of the feet, along the length of the ski, in the transition precludes this necessary outcome, delaying the clean edge engagement with strong and early inclination, and often requiring the skier to push his skis sideways later to acquire the necessary arrangement of the feet well outside the path of the body. I suspect that this is what you're seeing in the film trailer you linked to. The skiers achieve extraordinary edge angles, but their early engagement is not as clean or progressive as that of Neureuther. 

 

Good eye!

 

Best regards,

Bob

"Lateral Shoving" Masterful coinage, @BobBarnes ya captured what I thought I saw...was struggling for describe...Epic Ski Instruction section overflowing 'stack', breaching 'dam' with them 'LATERAL SHOVing-ERS" ... while some strange  waxing poetic  - missed them forest them trees , look out  ! All good intended ah know, but man it's painful beholding ... biblical shoving laterally :eek 


Edited by simontemplar - 9/21/15 at 9:48am
post #24 of 27
Especially compared to the video zenny shared, it's not even close. the instructors mentioned have gotten better in recent years though. I feel their release is weak. BB calls that weak X-move. A weak release will result in a weak crossover and if the skier is still attempting to be dynamic, there will have to be some pivot entry......or lateral shoving.

Some of the instructors mentioned are also quite obsessed with using rebound from the apex of each turn to drive themselves into the next turn which is part of how they obtain the lateral dynamics to compensate for weak release. Paradoxically, that very move of resisting pressure just a little longer to get the lateral rebound, interferes with optimal clean releasing. Thus x-over is inhibited and they rely on the rebound to more of a cross under move.

Felix does not do that!
Edited by borntoski683 - 9/22/15 at 10:45am
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

 

 

 (because their paths move outside the path of the body as the skier inclines into a turn), the feet and skis must move across the hill faster than the body in the transition. The "conventional wisdom" of moving the body/hips/center of mass forward of the feet, along the length of the ski, in the transition precludes this necessary outcome, delaying the clean edge engagement with strong and early inclination, and often requiring the skier to push his skis sideways later to acquire the necessary arrangement of the feet well outside the path of the body.

 

Good eye!

 

Best regards,

Bob

How far we can incline into the turn and in what specific direction we incline during the "X" move    is in part a function of what we have for skis on our feet.  As we incline into the turn at the top of the turn the ski must begin to arc to support our inclination.  A ski that reacts more quickly like a slalom ski will allow us to move  further inside more quickly than say a GS ski which does not respond as fast.  I notice this every time I switch from slalom skis to GS skis.  The first couple turns I attempt on the GS skis often almost  results in a tip over because the GS ski does not respond as quickly.  Moving forward along the length of the ski also has little to do with developing high edge angles in the high C part of the turn.  It's about beginning the tipping at the feet and then moving things up the kinetic chain.   YM 

post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by simontemplar View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
 

The common dogma, for eons now, is that we need to "move our body forward along the length of the ski" in the transition, while Neureuther's move shows his feet and skis moving forward (in the direction they're pointing) in relation to his body in that phase. His skis are literally moving across the hill faster than his body is, although we can clearly also see his body moving down the hill faster than his skis at the same time. This move, which I have long dubbed the "X-Move" (in a nod to its apparent mysteriousness, as well as its descriptiveness of the crossing of the two paths of the body and feet in the transition), is a fundamental component of all good offensive turns, at any speed--differing in intensity and range of motion, but not in fundamental character, at lower speed. it's what i see but not in vids like one below so am v confused

like this is my meaning 'n its one sample great skiers bu..t nary a one showing felix moves , cool skiing smooth seem low loading 'X-move' aint happening, dunno cant see it but i a'int no expert , this is the question why ?

 

!

 

The three ski the same as Félix, to my eye. Good retraction release, good timing, good edging. Good coiling.

 

You have to take into account what they ski: Félix skis injected, these guys ski mush. Also the turn shape they need. Félix needs around a 3-4m offset, these guys ski very short turns and medium turns, nothing in between.

 

Félix's skiing is cleaner, though. look where his pressure is in the turn (the puff of snow) and how short it is. That's "racer timing".

 

Also, when you do gates, there is a different need: sending the skis on the outside and the body inside the corridor.

 

So, while their tactics are different, their technique is quite similar. Of course Félix's winning the WC, so he will be more refined and will get away with more than anyone else...

 

cheers

post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

  Here's some nice Felix footage, for those interested...pretty sure the first vid in the OP was shot just for the joy of skiing, and I agree with Rick that the launch looks fun! :-)

 

 

 

  zenny


it appears some folks are doubting that Felix is doing retraction releases here. 

 

not sure what to call this...

 


the only other term that fits is "flexed release" with relaxation only, but that somehow implies some level of passive skiing, but there is nothing passive about this skiing...

 

 


perhaps i need new beer goggles!

 

 

 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Anatomy of a Turn: German Style contrast with the CSIA stuff floating around here, real diff yes, no, maybe