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Summer's over - time to get forward ! - Page 3

post #61 of 71

I second that ... nicely executed indeed. I recognize that particular mix of movements: Inside knee to the chest, outside knee to the boot, deep ankle flexion, zipper faced down the hill, nice two footed release and so on. Did see a bit of inside tip lead on the top turn but ... this is just one turn and am assuming it is another movement goal to keep the feet closer in that respect. Oh, and like Rick said, nice pivots too ... slick.

post #62 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

If we don't get forward now, we'll miss the entire winter, let alone one turn. This seems to be the most productive time for forward discussions, so.

this guy's forward enough and still getting forward: 




don't just say no, rather make it more interesting and try to find an explanation of why we could conclude that he IS forward and is STILL getting forward?

here's all that was said about forward, for your perusal:  http://www.epicski.com/t/129737/instructors-do-you-teach-moving-forward-at-initiation-if-so-how-or-why-not#post_1782280

p.s. photo is from www.yourskicoach.com 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

Why would we say "no"?


He's moving across his skis down the hill (forward) and continuing to do so.
icon14.gif
yup - that's part of it, but i think there's more to it than that. he's also forward along the ski, i think... and can muster significant tip pressure all the way to the apex as well...

Starting the season with "forward" are we?

Well if you define this photo as "forward" what would "aft" look like?
How exactly is he actively "presuring the tips" at that moment?
post #63 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

razie, just watched your videos.  You know you're pivoting in them, right?  Driven by strong anticipation.  Very nicely executed, and useful in a slalom course. 

 

Thumbs Up

 

by anticipation do you mean coiling/counteracting/separation? yes, that does help the skis turn at the top, but I don't think that fits with the notion of pivoting - at least I don't see it that way. the timing of the skis turning is proper and i had no "pivoting" or rotation movements - just the early light edge engagement and the strong coiling/separation. the outside ski washes out slightly mid-turn, under pressure, probably because of lacking angulation, but recovers quickly.

 

when the skis turn because of body biomechanics and movements other than rotation/pivoting movements, I don't see that as pivoting. for instance: as the leg extends outwards laterally, there is a pression in the boot to orient the tips down (so the skis stay at 90 degrees to the boot and the leg laterally out) but if we have decent edge engagement, that will not turn into a pivoting of the ski, will just "enhance" the turning effect at the top..

 

basically, to obtain those effects, I would not train "pivoting" to my racers, that's what I mean... but early edging and flexed releases and coiling and the regular stuff... eventually they'll get it.

 

cheers

 

now, if there was a gate I was trying to make, would I have pivoted? likely, yeah :)

 

Rich - I think that brief outside ski washout is responsible for the tip lead you saw.


Edited by razie - 9/17/15 at 6:45pm
post #64 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Thumbs Up

 

by anticipation do you mean coiling/counteracting/separation? yes, that does help the skis turn at the top, but I don't think that fits with the notion of pivoting - at least I don't see it that way. the timing of the skis turning is proper and i had no "pivoting" or rotation movements - just the early light edge engagement and the strong coiling/separation. the outside ski washes out slightly mid-turn, under pressure, probably because of lacking angulation, but recovers quickly.

 

when the skis turn because of body biomechanics and movements other than rotation/pivoting movements, I don't see that as pivoting. for instance: as the leg extends outwards laterally, there is a pression in the boot to orient the tips down (so the skis stay at 90 degrees to the boot and the leg laterally out) but if we have decent edge engagement, that will not turn into a pivoting of the ski, will just "enhance" the turning effect at the top..

 

basically, to obtain those effects, I would not train "pivoting" to my racers, that's what I mean... but early edging and flexed releases and coiling and the regular stuff... eventually they'll get it.

 

cheers

 

now, if there was a gate I was trying to make, would I have pivoted? likely, yeah :)

 

It's good we're getting this communication road block cleared up, razie.  What you're not seeing as pivoting in your video is exactly what I'm referring to when I'm pointing out pivoting happening on the WC.  I see any redirecting of the skis before pressure and engagement as pivoting, regardless of how it's done.  In your video is a display of higher level, efficiently executed pivoting, similar to what we see FIS level racers do.  The form of pivoting you're referring to, powered by gross body movements, is a generally a lower skill level means of powering a pivot, generally seen used by intermediate level and below skiers.  

post #65 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

Thumbs Up

 

by anticipation do you mean coiling/counteracting/separation? yes, that does help the skis turn at the top, but I don't think that fits with the notion of pivoting - at least I don't see it that way. the timing of the skis turning is proper and i had no "pivoting" or rotation movements - just the early light edge engagement and the strong coiling/separation. the outside ski washes out slightly mid-turn, under pressure, probably because of lacking angulation, but recovers quickly.

 

when the skis turn because of body biomechanics and movements other than rotation/pivoting movements, I don't see that as pivoting. for instance: as the leg extends outwards laterally, there is a pression in the boot to orient the tips down (so the skis stay at 90 degrees to the boot and the leg laterally out) but if we have decent edge engagement, that will not turn into a pivoting of the ski, will just "enhance" the turning effect at the top..

 

basically, to obtain those effects, I would not train "pivoting" to my racers, that's what I mean... but early edging and flexed releases and coiling and the regular stuff... eventually they'll get it.

 

cheers

 

now, if there was a gate I was trying to make, would I have pivoted? likely, yeah :)

 

It's good we're getting this communication road block cleared up, razie.  What you're not seeing as pivoting in your video is exactly what I'm referring to when I'm pointing out pivoting happening on the WC.  I see any redirecting of the skis before pressure and engagement as pivoting, regardless of how it's done.  In your video is a display of higher level, efficiently executed pivoting, similar to what we see FIS level racers do.  The form of pivoting you're referring to, powered by gross body movements, is a generally a lower skill level means of powering a pivot, generally seen used by intermediate level and below skiers.  CE​

Exactly - this is my gripe with the word pivoting - it is overused. most don't make a distinction between pivoting "movements" as an input and a pivoting "result", so as an output.

 

LF's recent thread on oversteering had a good handle on this distinction, I think.

post #66 of 71
Thread Starter 

having said that - was I really pivoting, in your acception of the word? perhaps, but not so sure...

 

the way I judge these types of turns is backwards: from the apex. at the apex we see, the pressure turns the ski in like an 8-9m - I wasn't going too fast and they just point the other way - I set a lot of U12 courses so that looks like an 8m to me.

 

working back from that, the timing earlier in the turn is maybe just under twice that radius, so 14-15m so to me it seems like I was more like riding the sidecut than oversteering - which seems appropriate as they go on edge - it was a Nordica WC (the colorful ones) so maybe 13m...ish

 

but, on the other hand, I'm not known for my math skills :cool 

 

cheers

 

but I think I hear you - because there are other effects at play as well, you consider that pivoting, while I would look at the ski's behaviour more I guess - bit of a gray area there, sure.

post #67 of 71

Razie, those are pivot moves plain and simple. A duck is a duck by no other name. It may not help to ignore popular term usage and especially based on some gripe about how you think others may misuse it. Distinctions of input and output can be made in regards to the many other terms that you will likely continue using. Next thing you know, you will be freewheeling it and refusing to use terms like "turn" in lessons at all costs like FOM. 

post #68 of 71
Thread Starter 

:)

 

I don't actually use it, honestly. when I want skidding I instruct skidding, when I want carving, I instruct carving. Steering is fuzzy enough by itself, but sends the message :)

post #69 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

:)

 

I don't actually use it, honestly. when I want skidding I instruct skidding, when I want carving, I instruct carving. Steering is fuzzy enough by itself, but sends the message :)

 

Well, you make my point exactly ... pivoting is neither skidding or carving, therefore it cannot be replaced by those terms.  Also steering is more typically used in terms of rotary with pressure and pivoting: rotary without pressure. The term "pivot" is as fundamental to basic alpine skiing language as is  "skidding", "carving" and "steering". As well, these three terms that you continue to use can as well be distinguished by their use in terms of movement and/or outcome which is your logic of discontinuing its use. So now there is thee more words you shouldn't be using either. There are likely many more in that respect! :)

post #70 of 71
Thread Starter 

you are right: carving is a result :) the actual movements are get forward, edging, angulation, coiling and that's what i spend the time working on - you'll find that's par for a race coaching setting, I think. I would think Rick does the same. Sometimes though asking the result works (more carving, less skidding please, resulting in more angulation), but that's besides the point.

 

what we call the output of those, of edging/angulation/separation, sometimes the timing of the turn would cause you to say "pivoting" sometimes not, sometimes we throw the skis sideways, move pressure fore/aft, whatever - like we saw, there's like 7-8 ways to cause oversteering - that's not that relevant though, it's timing and we train that on course not tech - that's what I meant. and I think that's what Rick means as well.

 

Meta can tell you all about pivoting and steering, and you probably the same - I didn't learn that route though :) and although i've been here for a while, i still have only a rough understanding of what they really mean.

 

cheers,

raz

 

p.s. quick intro to race coaching. it's two things: technical free skiing (drills and instruction) and course/environment training. it's the course setter's skill to teach skills with the course setting. I can set the same parameters it in many ways and teach different skills with the course set, which are not taught in free ski these are soft skills, not technique. tech skiing focuses on two things: carving and more carving :) I don't have such a thing as a "pivoting tech session", although there's spiess and picked fences, sure (although I think some coaches abuse those - they produce short term results but also cause racers to rely on them too much and not "fight" to stay on the line and improvement always occurs at the limit, not when you're comfortable).


Edited by razie - 9/17/15 at 8:37pm
post #71 of 71

Some people, say looking down from above,  might see pulling back your right foot and tucking it in close to your left one as a bit of (maybe almost half :D) a clockwise pivot.  When combined with a little air, you don't even have a continuous transitiion between parallel straight lines (from old to new ski edge) left on the snow to judge by.   Not that there is anything wrong with that.;):) 

Still the non-pivoting directed learning seems to be working well.  Carry on.

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