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Outback Limited vs. BMW 328d wagon? Discuss. - Page 7

post #181 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post
 

If the princesses are not paying,....

 

That said..... as a Subi guy...

 

The new Outback is all but an SUV in name.  It is huge.  Add a cool cargo box and it is humongous.  

 

As for power, the auto tranny makes the car feel lame but if you put it in sport mode, performance improves enormously!  The auto will hunt for gears and be feeble on hills.  Sport mode lets you pick and that car will claw up a STEEP pitch at 70 in 3rd.  The douche in the  Suburban who passed you in the right lane 10 miles ago will eat your slush as you zoom past him on the first incline.  

 

Subarus will, in the long run, COST you.  Notorious head gaskets.  That said, you can buy a SWEET used  pimped out soccer mom Subi in 5 years that the dealer or the orig owner already spent the $$ on with the $20k you saved up front on the BMW.

 

Plastic?  Yup -  but also a million tie downs and hooks and if you get mud on it, no biggie.  

 

BMW is good.  Ultimate?  Meh.  Test drive the Sub and manually shift in sport mode.  Diff animal.

 

Auto tranny?  These days, a new Subie automatic has a CVT, with "simulated" gear ratios in sport mode.

post #182 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post
 

The auto will hunt for gears and be feeble on hills.

 

The 6 doesn't have that problem. Worth it IMO if you're doing a lot of hills.

post #183 of 201
The Alltrack "S" w/ DSG starts at around $27K. Add $900 for safety tech features. The SE and SEL will go for low and mid 30s respectively.

Manual gear box will be available early next year...some people get excited by it, especially most auto journalists.

In addition, the AWD option will be available for the regular Sportwagen in the S trim only, for a couple of grand less. I like that even better except "Off-road" drive mode only available in the Alltrack seems to be something that's worthwhile according to some early first-drive reviews.

Head to head with the Outback would be interesting. The outback is bigger, more ground clearance and more utility, but the VW has its own appeal too
post #184 of 201

TFLcar (and other reviews) were invited to sample the Alltrack offroad. 

 

 

Too bad the Haldex 5, the max torque transfer to the rear is back down to 50%

 

THe Offroad mode does disable ASR, which is a fuel cut, so, on trickier situations, a Subie with CVT will cut power which can be detrimental.  (Roman at TFL mentioned he hated that when they tested the Outback), but on the flip side, more power can be transferred to the rear than Haldex 5.

 

Eventually, the TFLcar guys want a sample to test at 1 mile above sea level, which btw, doesn't affect turbos as much as naturally aspirated engines (like the Outback), and their stomping grounds for offroad testing.

 

 


Edited by tanscrazydaisy - 9/19/16 at 11:04am
post #185 of 201
Quote:
Hendrik Muth, Volkswagen of America's vice of president of product marketing and strategy, says the Alltrack is targeted at a younger buyer who wants a car that's more nimble than the Outback

This hits the nail on the head, exactly the reason I decided against Outback. It's unfortunate that the alltrack wasn't available a year earlier or I would've seriously considered it.

Never liked TFL cars, saw a few of their videos and seems like a bunch of doofus who managed to get a press car. The video where they took a Wrangler with street tires into offroad trail with deep snow and complained it can't get going sealed it for me.
post #186 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


This hits the nail on the head, exactly the reason I decided against Outback. It's unfortunate that the alltrack wasn't available a year earlier or I would've seriously considered it.

Never liked TFL cars, saw a few of their videos and seems like a bunch of doofus who managed to get a press car. The video where they took a Wrangler with street tires into offroad trail with deep snow and complained it can't get going sealed it for me.

 

 

I've been wheeling offroad most of my life and am currently shopping for a new ride, Outback on short list. I absolutely do not see how the Alltrack is any better offroad than the Outback.

 

What in the world does "more nimble" mean in this context? Tighter turn radius?  Certainly has less ground clearance.

post #187 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


This hits the nail on the head, exactly the reason I decided against Outback. It's unfortunate that the alltrack wasn't available a year earlier or I would've seriously considered it.

Never liked TFL cars, saw a few of their videos and seems like a bunch of doofus who managed to get a press car. The video where they took a Wrangler with street tires into offroad trail with deep snow and complained it can't get going sealed it for me.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


This hits the nail on the head, exactly the reason I decided against Outback. It's unfortunate that the alltrack wasn't available a year earlier or I would've seriously considered it.

Never liked TFL cars, saw a few of their videos and seems like a bunch of doofus who managed to get a press car. The video where they took a Wrangler with street tires into offroad trail with deep snow and complained it can't get going sealed it for me.

 

The most common armchair complaint about any tester is.... "you should of bought the right tires".

 

TFLcar, as well as established magazines test vehicles in the configuration received by the manufacturer.  They do not have the budget to go out and replace, for example a Wrangler-whatever-trim-model's tire with a more suitable tire for that trail's condition during that time of year.  Manufacturers wouldn't reimburse them either.

 

Everyman Driver is on Toyota's banned list, for messing up a 4Runner, because he tested it as received by Toyota.  Could he have put appropriate tires on at his cost?  Sure, but he'll go broke doing that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 

 

 

I've been wheeling offroad most of my life and am currently shopping for a new ride, Outback on short list. I absolutely do not see how the Alltrack is any better offroad than the Outback.

 

What in the world does "more nimble" mean in this context? Tighter turn radius?  Certainly has less ground clearance.

the alltrack is only .3 feet tighter in the turning circle....  3.6" isn't much to talk about., but it doesn't help that the alltrack has puny tires, 205/55r17 vs 225/65r17 in the outback.

 

nimble feeling can be more down to street driving characteristics, from the suspension tuning, steering feel, to how the 1.8TSI feels with the DSG vs the Outback's 2.5L motor with CVT (the 3.6L motor is above the alltrack pricepoint).

 

for me, I loathe the roof rack on the Outback, for both generations it has had it.  Much prefer the raised side rails of the Forester & XV, no to mention, Subaru got rid of the panoramic roof on the last generation (I like the panoramic roof on my buddy's 06 LGT wagon). 

post #188 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 

 

 

I've been wheeling offroad most of my life and am currently shopping for a new ride, Outback on short list. I absolutely do not see how the Alltrack is any better offroad than the Outback.

 

What in the world does "more nimble" mean in this context? Tighter turn radius?  Certainly has less ground clearance.


The Outback is  190"L x 72"W x 66"H vs the VW alltrack 180" x 70" x 60". The Outback is a whole class size larger and about 500 pounds heavier. The Forester is about the same size as the VW alltrack.

post #189 of 201
post #190 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post


I've been wheeling offroad most of my life and am currently shopping for a new ride, Outback on short list. I absolutely do not see how the Alltrack is any better offroad than the Outback.

What in the world does "more nimble" mean in this context? Tighter turn radius?  Certainly has less ground clearance.

Most people don't buy them for offroad so on road feeling is more important here. It's big, heavy, soft suspension, leans a lot in corners. Makes a comfy cruiser but not fun to drive.
post #191 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post


The most common armchair complaint about any tester is.... "you should of bought the right tires".

TFLcar, as well as established magazines test vehicles in the configuration received by the manufacturer.  They do not have the budget to go out and replace, for example a Wrangler-whatever-trim-model's tire with a more suitable tire for that trail's condition during that time of year.  Manufacturers wouldn't reimburse them either.

Everyman Driver is on Toyota's banned list, for messing up a 4Runner, because he tested it as received by Toyota.  Could he have put appropriate tires on at his cost?  Sure, but he'll go broke doing that.


Armchair complaint lol, I spent the last 10 years in a Wrangler going offroading and deep snowing, I would imagine I know a bit more about it than average people.

Taking street tire to the track is not a problem, taking one to offroad in deep snow, then making an entire video complaining about getting stuck is another level of stupidity. I'd say unprofessional, but they aren't all that professional to begin with.
post #192 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post


The most common armchair complaint about any tester is.... "you should of bought the right tires".

TFLcar, as well as established magazines test vehicles in the configuration received by the manufacturer.  They do not have the budget to go out and replace, for example a Wrangler-whatever-trim-model's tire with a more suitable tire for that trail's condition during that time of year.  Manufacturers wouldn't reimburse them either.

Everyman Driver is on Toyota's banned list, for messing up a 4Runner, because he tested it as received by Toyota.  Could he have put appropriate tires on at his cost?  Sure, but he'll go broke doing that.
 

Armchair complaint lol, I spent the last 10 years in a Wrangler going offroading and deep snowing, I would imagine I know a bit more about it than average people.

Taking street tire to the track is not a problem, taking one to offroad in deep snow, then making an entire video complaining about getting stuck is another level of stupidity. I'd say unprofessional, but they aren't all that professional to begin with.


Seems to me they were trying to drive home the point that a vehicle with off-road aspirations should not have come without at least mediocre off-road tires.

post #193 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Armchair complaint lol, I spent the last 10 years in a Wrangler going offroading and deep snowing, I would imagine I know a bit more about it than average people.

Taking street tire to the track is not a problem, taking one to offroad in deep snow, then making an entire video complaining about getting stuck is another level of stupidity. I'd say unprofessional, but they aren't all that professional to begin with.


you didn't address the part about, "credible" testers will replace the factory supplied tires with suitable tires.

 

Second, if you were given the priviledge of press vehicles to test, would you spend your own money to buy the right tires for the conditions for every vehicle you test?  Would you be mad if the manufacturer did not reimburse you for putting better tires on?

post #194 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 


you didn't address the part about, "credible" testers will replace the factory supplied tires with suitable tires.

 

Second, if you were given the priviledge of press vehicles to test, would you spend your own money to buy the right tires for the conditions for every vehicle you test?  Would you be mad if the manufacturer did not reimburse you for putting better tires on?

If you were a smart car manufacturer you wouldn't give off road testers a car equipped with cheap stock tires. So maybe the car got the poor report that the manufacturer deserved.

post #195 of 201

In fact, reputable car testers insist on as-built, factory condition.  They don't want factory "specials" for their tests.  That's kinda like EPA mileage numbers...or diesel emissions.. 

post #196 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott43 View Post
 

In fact, reputable car testers insist on as-built, factory condition.  They don't want factory "specials" for their tests.  That's kinda like EPA mileage numbers...or diesel emissions.. 

 

Most 4x4 car buyers don't go off road and most 4x4 cars are not tested off road. Buyers who do plan on going off road know that they probably will need to upgrade the tires, so these buyers might be better served by an off road test with upgraded tires.

 

Reputable car testers need only to inform their viewers that the tires are not factory stock and their reputation will remain intact.

post #197 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
 

If you were a smart car manufacturer you wouldn't give off road testers a car equipped with cheap stock tires. So maybe the car got the poor report that the manufacturer deserved.


Because that costs money.  If a manufacturer gives a tester a vehicle with a tire that would not normally be available at the factory level, in an effort to get the best possible review, ... eventually, they'll get called out on it, and the manufacturer's reputation can be hurt.

 

Nokian was caught cheating when it came to comparison tests.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/26/nokian-tire-test-cheat-report/

post #198 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post


you didn't address the part about, "credible" testers will replace the factory supplied tires with suitable tires.

Second, if you were given the priviledge of press vehicles to test, would you spend your own money to buy the right tires for the conditions for every vehicle you test?  Would you be mad if the manufacturer did not reimburse you for putting better tires on?

Address what, something nobody else has mentioned? You are the only one who said anything about tester should replace the tires.

Let's put it in more understandable terms, if you were given sneakers to test, you wouldn't go hike up a muddy trail and complain about how bad they were.
post #199 of 201

It's not quite the same.  These cars are touted and being sold as off-road capable, heavily advertised as being able to get you through snow.  Yet in the stock condition with stock tires, they are sold to the public by the dealers they are less likely to make it through a snow covered hay field than my old 1969 Volkswagen station wagon with no-season radials.  Good on the testers for testing them as is and noting that as-is is not good enough for off-roading.

post #200 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
 

 

Most 4x4 car buyers don't go off road and most 4x4 cars are not tested off road. Buyers who do plan on going off road know that they probably will need to upgrade the tires, so these buyers might be better served by an off road test with upgraded tires.

 

Reputable car testers need only to inform their viewers that the tires are not factory stock and their reputation will remain intact.

 

I don't disagree.  But generally they're testing "stock" vehicles.  And tires are the #1 most important performance factor in most vehicles.  So it has the ability to greatly affect results.  I suppose for certain tests you could sub other tires but I think you'd have to use a similar tire for all tests of vehicles or something along that line.  If it's a comparison, you need a baseline and if one car has Pilot Cup 2 tires and someone else has Traction T/A's, there's a huge bias.  If you go that route I think you have to use Pilot Cup 2 tires on all your performance tests.  AND mention they are not stock tires.

post #201 of 201
nevermind...
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