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Ski Effort (Ski-E)

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

If you consider that it will take less effort to ski on flexible skis that are short and have some shape to help you turn, compared to stiffer longer expert rated skis; or, when it comes to terrain; if you consider it will take more effort to negotiate a black diamond mogul run compared to a bunny slope- then why not consider a Ski Effort in terms of an equation such as one that is a play on Einstein's theory of relativity?

 

Ski-E      E=mc^2
Ski Equipment Manner (m): Course level (c):
Beginner (1) Intermediate (3) Expert (5)
Beginner (1) 1 9 25
Intermediate (3) 3 27 75
Expert (5) 5 45 125

 

If you are skiing on intermediate rated skis on an intermediate trail then your Ski-E is 27.  

Not included in this equation is your particular aggressiveness; this relation is merely ski to mountain. With that said understanding a Ski-E can let you anticipate where on the mountain you want to apply your aggressiveness or reserve it.

 

As silly as it may seem, this chart / theory could have a usefulness.

Here are some examples for it's application:

Choice of equipment.

Choice of equipment for a particular day / mountain or trails you want to ski.

Anticipating trail choices based on how you are feeling during the day.

 

The above choices and decisions have always been made without a chart or theory so you might think it is totally unnecessary.

I introduce this for fun just to emphasize how ski equipment relates to the mountain as well as how a skier's required effort becomes less as one travels from the top to the bottom and trails shift from expert to intermediate and finally beginner.

This concept illustrates differences in a skier's effort needed and does not rate a skier's ability or require a skier's physical stats of any kind as a variable. 

post #2 of 16
Personally, I don't consider trail markings when I pick a ski for the day. It's either going to be an off groomers day or an on groomers day, it's going to be fresh snow or old snow. Basically, it's terrain and snow conditions. Trail rating doesn't even cross my mind.

And it seems to me that the effort level for a beginner on an expert trail is going to be higher than 5 and higher for the beginner than the expert.

So, you need to get another formula.
post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

And it seems to me that the effort level for a beginner on an expert trail is going to be higher than 5 and higher for the beginner than the expert.

So, you need to get another formula.

 

That's what I was thinking... but really, I think you're just trying to put numbers to the kind of day you want to have. That will be different by person - if you have a good variety of skis available, and slopes to choose from, then sure, you can judge it this way.

 

Personally, I only own one pair of skis, and basically wait until a few runs to see how much I want to push myself. No formula needed.

post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 
Yeah there is a lot of ambiguity in my chart.
The thought wasn't to rate a skier's effort actually but instead rate how the ski relates to the terrain and help a skier predict the work they will be up against. If you want to make life easy on yourself for example you can ski the mogul trail on soft short skis.
If your all around skis are considered intermediate to expert- then on tough trails you will be challenged at a higher effort to maintain control comfortably.
Common sense and experience comes in to play and we know the Black Diamond trails demand more - so for example a mainly intermediate skier like myself will be a little cautious on a steep Black Diamond trail and especially when I know the trail leads me to my favorite Intermediate run I might just reserve my energy for my favorite part of the trail.
Now I am off topic a little-
Ski-E is supposed to be the ski vs terrain.
A coefficient of effort required.
post #5 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by da-cat View Post

If your all around skis are considered intermediate to expert- then on tough trails you will be challenged at a higher effort to maintain control comfortably.

 

Hmm... I don't know much about equipment, but I'm not sure that's true. I don't think the "level" of the ski is related to effort the way you're speculating it is.

 

I don't think a skier comfortable on blacks would change their effort based on the ski they're on. I think the "level" of the ski is more about the persons style/technique and how they load/unload and use the ski, rather than what type of terrain it's on.

 

I.e., an expert skier on an intermediate ski would ski a little differently than if he/she were on an expert ski - but the effort wouldn't be more. The technique would just change a little.

 

I wonder if any experts here can chime in on that? (I'm an intermediate myself, so I don't really know.)

post #6 of 16

I get the feeling that if I was skiing a crud infused black or double black and using a beginner or even an intermediate ski it would take more effort, not less than if I was using an expert ski.  You need the equipment to reliably hold you in place and not wuss out on you.  If the skis are bending too much and not giving you reliable edge hold you're going to be working lots harder to maintain control.


Edited by Posaune - 8/24/15 at 2:23pm
post #7 of 16

Far be it from me to call myself an "expert" on epic ski, but I like skiing on "expert" skis.  To me, it does not take more effort to ski on expert skis, although it can take more effort to bend them into a tighter turns; you can always make wider turns with less effort.

 

Same with different terrain ratings.  Sure I can make it more effort to ski a steeper gnarlier run fast with hard turns thrown in, but I can also ski it quite easily slowly.

post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
There is no getting around it:
Ski-E has 3rd, 4th and 5th dimensions.
Mention effort and skiers effort and ability do come into play.
Mention soft beginner style equipment and honestly a pair of wet noodles won't be too useful sliding around in tough terrain.
Hadn't even mentioned powder vs ice.
In reality a GS ski comes alive at speed so it's a drag on a flat hill.
Ski-E is full of faults.
Only thought of it when I considered if someone wanted to try a steeper tougher slope maybe they wouldn't want to be on super stiff and long skis their first time down it and I wondered if this led to a correlation of ski type vs terrain.
Edited by da-cat - 8/24/15 at 1:45am
post #9 of 16
I always made the car analogy and skis were like vehicles. And you could have a race car or a 4wd car or a luxuey sedan or an suv or an off road vehicle or a tank. Seemed more logical in my mind
post #10 of 16

Honestly, there are too many variables for a meaningful calculus here. 

post #11 of 16

Your formula doesn't consider skill, which you acknowledge, that is it's flaw (well, it's major flaw). As ski equipment goes up in performance it begins to demand more precision, hence the term 'demanding', but requiring more precision is not the same as requiring more effort. An expert skier on expert terrain will exert less effort on an expert ski than on intermediate skis. An intermediate on beginner terrain will exert less effort skiing intermediate gear than they would on expert gear. Skill matters.

 

What I am saying is, your chart needs to be a venn diagram.  Hey, I'm not smart enough to do it, but I think you would end up with something like this:

post #12 of 16

Chuckle.... honesty, the most energy used , most difficult run I recall taking in the last three years was on a pair of 171 Head Venturi's. The correct length (191 for me) it would have been very easy to ski the terrain that nearly killed me on the 171's. I was just crushing the 171 completely. It was a s*&^t  show until I got into some green groomer terrain at the bottom of the mountain. Even then 'slow' was the tactic of choice.  :)

post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 

Honestly, there are too many variables for a meaningful calculus here. 

 

Maybe, but we *just* might have the technology to be able to isolate a few of those variables  - using actual measurement.     Remember when power meters were still just an oooh-aah toy and everyone was googoogaga over HRMs?      Well, there's a new oooh-aah toy that has better applicability to skiing, both nordic and alpine:
 

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/muscle-oxygen-sensor.html

 

I'm seeing nordic adoption and rabbit-eared Venn diagrams for their gear in 5 years or less.    Alpine will probably take longer except perhaps in things like moguls coaching.
 

post #14 of 16

The biggest flaw I see isn't the variables or the skill set.  It is that most folks have no idea what their actual skill set is.

post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

I always made the car analogy and skis were like vehicles. And you could have a race car or a 4wd car or a luxuey sedan or an suv or an off road vehicle or a tank. Seemed more logical in my mind
My favorite part about this analogy is that it gives cred to wanting a quiver of skis.
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
 

The biggest flaw I see isn't the variables or the skill set.  It is that most folks have no idea what their actual skill set is.

 

Well, there's also the syndrome where folks gauge the worth of the activity based on their expended effort - so if they just jump turned 1500 vertical and are completely done at the bottom they must be better off than the  guy who slip-cruised the whole run without breaking a sweat.    Skill set?   Wouldn't that just make it easier?    Why do that, that's like taking plates off the bar or running up the up escalator?   Why bother doing it if it's not hard?

   It would be *very* easy to sell such people on the worth of a table as in the OP. 

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