EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › So I got a stone grind, and I dont know what they set the edges at!
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So I got a stone grind, and I dont know what they set the edges at!

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
So as you may have read in my other posts, by bases were pretty beat up and my edges were all messed up. So I got a stonegrind and now I have no idea what the edges are set at. You may ask why I didnt just ask the people at the shop, and I'd have very good reason to tell you. I'd go into it but no one really cares, but its basically because they have 50 dif. people working there (never see the same guy twice) and it is the dirtiest, ugliest, must unkept and unprofessional place I have ever been too, but they've been in the biz the longest and seem to know what they are doing. Plus it was the cheapest place. I didnt get a ticket when I dropped my skis off, and when I went to pick them up they were just leaning against a wall and there was like a 14 yr old kid who worked there and he said I can just take whichever one's are mine. Scary, almost.

But the bases look great, no more scratches, and the edges are shiny and kind-of sharp. But now I have no idea what my edges are set at. When I dropped them off I asked the guy what they usually set them at and he said 1 on the side and 1 on the base, and if they are race skis (which they are) he would do .5 on the base. Mind you these are slalom skis.

So how do I find out for certain what angle they are at? I ran a fine grit diamond stone in my edger at different angles on the edge but its difficult to tell. It digs in at 2 degrees on the side, so I dont think it is that high. But on the base I have no clue. How can I find out?

Also, when I got my skis back, they were wet with what smelled like oil, and the bases have a soapy coating on them which I can easily wash off. What is that stuff???

Once I find out my edge angles, how do I keep them tuned well? When is the next time I should sharpen them? I have coarse and find diamond stones, and edger, a hard gummi stone, and an unidentified red pocket stone that doesnt fit in my edger. What would be the best way, using these tools, to keep my good tune?

Thanks for all your help guys, My skis and I appreciate it!!!

-PMZ
post #2 of 27
WOW!!!
post #3 of 27
When you took the skis in, what did you ask the shop to do to them?
post #4 of 27
I would get so sort of file in addition to your tuning equipement and depending how much you ski, tune them every week or so (if you are skiing 3 or more times a week). Try not to touch the bases unless you have a serious burr problem, and when you do work on the base edge, only use a diamond stone. My guess is that is the shop is as unorganized as you say, they probably did them at 1 degree on the base and one degree on the side. The side is very easy to change with a file. I would just leave the base. In order to change the side (if you wish to) you WILL need a file. Changing the side edge angle with a diamond stone would take a very very very long time. From now on when you take your skis in, make sure they will out a slip for your skis and you tell them what bevels you want on both your base and edge. They can't really screw it up then. I get all of my tuning done for free at a very busy shop, and they still take the time to fill out slips for my skis, even though the head race tech there knows that i use a 1 degree base and 3 degree side, accidents can still happen, its good to have a way to show the person grinding your skis exactly what you want if you are not going to be present when the work is done.

As for future tuning equipement you may want to invest in... if you are really into tuning your skis, you should have a brass brush to clean your bases and bring the structure back, and nylon brush, several different waxes, an aluminum side bevel guide for whatever angle you prefer to have your skis at, and of course a good set of ski vises. I save time money and confusion by skiing all of my skis at 1 on the base and 3 on the side. You may also want to get a regular file and a fine file, so you dont take a ton of edge off every time you tune. If you want to work on your base ever, try using a base bevel guide versus a multi purpose tool.

Later

GREG
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thanks Greg, I have all the waxes and the brushes and the scrapers and the p-tex and everything else and im pretty good with my bases.

I have a swix-xactor with just a regular file that does side and base beveling. How often should I use the regular file if I am skiing 3 days a week? Or should I just stick to the diamond stones for weekly tune-ups, and only use the file once a month or so?
post #6 of 27
Yikes!!?

As said before, leave the friggin' base alone! It is easy to set a new side angle, especially if you are going from 1(?) to 2 degrees. Unless you are rock skiing, you should not have to do anything major to the base or base edge.
And when you use your diamond stone, use it wet, clean it as you use it, not once a month. When it is blackened, it is not cutting efficiently.
For some reason... it is just a hunch.. I feel I have to caution you about dragging a file backwards on the edge. You don't do it. Dulls the file... dulls the work.
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Try not to touch the bases unless you have a serious burr problem, and when you do work on the base edge, only use a diamond stone.

I have always been told the opposite.

Only use diamond files on the side unless setting the edge (I use a carbide side tool) and only use a real file for the base.
post #8 of 27
Scalce, i hope you are not one of those people who think tuning a ski is when you take an 8 inch bastard to your bases... If you continually file your base edges they end up being lower than your base (base high) and your edges dont touch the snow. If you are just flat filing your bases you are destroying the bevel that is there, as well as the structure in your base... not to mention getting god knows how much p-tex in your file.

PMZ, tune your edges about once a week if they start to feel dull. If youarent skiing on ice very often you should be able to go slightly longer than this. Also, ditch your exactor and get a good file guide and learn to use it. It will put a much better edge on your skis than an Xactor ever will. I have an Xactor, but i never use it for that reason. Pretty much your situation right now is the following: You know that you have a good flat base, and a good base bevel set. Leave it alone, anything you do to the base at this point will ruin the bevel and structure. You also know that the edges were set at some angle, but you dont know what. This really isnt a crisis, give them a good hand tune, at the angle that you want. If you dont know if you are getting the entire edge, use a sharpe marker on your edge to check to see if you are stripping material from the entire edge, versus just one point on it. Once you know you are tuning the entire edge at the proper angle, stop tuning, go over the edge with a diamond stone to take the burrs off, and then brush the skis down and wipe down the edges, then go ahead with the waxing.

Later

GREG
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Scalce, i hope you are not one of those people who think tuning a ski is when you take an 8 inch bastard to your bases... If you continually file your base edges they end up being lower than your base (base high) and your edges dont touch the snow. If you are just flat filing your bases you are destroying the bevel that is there, as well as the structure in your base... not to mention getting god knows how much p-tex in your file.

Yeah OK

:

Not sure how you came up with that assumption.

Sorry that someone disagrees with you.
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Scalce, i hope you are not one of those people who think tuning a ski is when you take an 8 inch bastard to your bases... If you continually file your base edges they end up being lower than your base (base high) and your edges dont touch the snow. If you are just flat filing your bases you are destroying the bevel that is there, as well as the structure in your base... not to mention getting god knows how much p-tex in your file.

PMZ, tune your edges about once a week if they start to feel dull. If youarent skiing on ice very often you should be able to go slightly longer than this. Also, ditch your exactor and get a good file guide and learn to use it. It will put a much better edge on your skis than an Xactor ever will. I have an Xactor, but i never use it for that reason. Pretty much your situation right now is the following: You know that you have a good flat base, and a good base bevel set. Leave it alone, anything you do to the base at this point will ruin the bevel and structure. You also know that the edges were set at some angle, but you dont know what. This really isnt a crisis, give them a good hand tune, at the angle that you want. If you dont know if you are getting the entire edge, use a sharpe marker on your edge to check to see if you are stripping material from the entire edge, versus just one point on it. Once you know you are tuning the entire edge at the proper angle, stop tuning, go over the edge with a diamond stone to take the burrs off, and then brush the skis down and wipe down the edges, then go ahead with the waxing.

Later

GREG
Greg, He should have called the shop to see what they did to his skis before he may have screwed up a perfectly good machine tune. He has no idea what he has. Why would you start hackin' on your skis reight out of the shop unless they just ground 'em flat? My guess is if he asked for a stone grind, they just flattened the the ski and basically put him at a 0 degree base edge.

This would be very easy to determine with a true bar. If he saw light at the edges under his true bar, he could angle the true bar against that edge to block any light and match the angle of the base edge bevel. Each millimeter the true bar was raised off the opposite side of the ski, would be equal to 1 degree. (Greg I know you know this part, just explaining for PMZ)

Greg, correct me if I'm wrong but if you have any base edge bevel, your edges are always going to be lower than your bases. That is exactly why one bevels their edges, isn't it?

And yes, once your base edge is set, you shouldn't have to file it again until the skis are ground again. You just deburr with your favorite deburring tool & sharpen the side edge only! Maintaining your edges after a tune really only needs daimond files and a gummi stone.

Over & out1

A-man
post #11 of 27
Atomicman,

Are the atomics out of the wrapper usually slightly concave?

I was just checking my wife's R10s with my trubar and the base seems slightly concave and the base edges look like they have a little less than 1 degree bevel. I know the factory tune is suppose to be 1 and 3 but that doesn't mean it always is.

I have only been doing slight maintence on the edges since they are still pretty new.

I just picked up an SVST The Final Cut Base Edge Beveling Tool among other SVST stuff to help keep the base edge at 1 degree when doing touch up work.

I haven't used it yet but look forward to it.
post #12 of 27
PMZ, if it's really a good tuning shop and if you didn't specify something different, the skis will be beveled (or not) to the manufacturer's suggested angles.
post #13 of 27
[quote]Originally posted by John J:
[QB]Yikes!!?


And when you use your diamond stone, use it wet, clean it as you use it, not once a month. When it is blackened, it is not cutting efficiently.


All good info and advice, but you got me on the diamond stone cleaning. How do you clean a diamond stone? Mine are all black and all I have is a wire brush for a file. Buying new ones seems to be an awful expensive proposition.
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by Scalce:
Atomicman,

Are the atomics out of the wrapper usually slightly concave?

I was just checking my wife's R10s with my trubar and the base seems slightly concave and the base edges look like they have a little less than 1 degree bevel. I know the factory tune is suppose to be 1 and 3 but that doesn't mean it always is.

I have only been doing slight maintence on the edges since they are still pretty new.

I just picked up an SVST The Final Cut Base Edge Beveling Tool among other SVST stuff to help keep the base edge at 1 degree when doing touch up work.

I haven't used it yet but look forward to it.
Scalce:

Every single pair I have seen except their speedskis are slightly concave at the tip and tail. We have 19 pair at the moment. Here is Atomic's answer & I quote:

"What is the reason some Atomic skis appear to have some concavity?"

"With the wider ski geometries of modern carving skis, a slightly concave base around the tip and tail have a positive impact on tracking stability on straight runs, without any negative effect on turning."

There is alot of good info at www.atomicski.com. go to FAQ's on the intro page; also under product/alpine/overview there are specs on all thier skis.

DO NOT!! ever try to have someone flatten this out of your bases. You will drastically reduce the life of your skis. By the way Atomic has some info on this very subject on their website. After I post this I'll edit it & put a link to the spot.

I also wouldn't screw with the base bevel form the factory. My experience has been they ski fine out of the box. If you want to touch up your base edge lightly use a diamond file in your final cut with very,very light pressure just to smooth out any rough spots. The watchword on bases edge is to be very "GINGER". less is more when it comes to messin' with base edge bevel! Always sharpen the side edge and then gummi lightly at a 45 degree angle to remove burr.

I was down at The Race Place a couple of years ago & Scott Holmer, the gentleman that invented all the beast tuning gear said as long as your bases are flat within about 1/4 to 3/8" of your edge along your bases they will ski fine.

Over & out!

Cliff

[ November 23, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Atomicman ]
post #15 of 27
Thanks for the info.

I would never touch my base material and I use very gentle strokes to take nicks out of the base edge.

It seems that everyday out in the NE area I get some nicks on the base and sides so I always do touchup work.
post #16 of 27
Bryan, use alcohol and water, or I imagine you could use Windex.
Dip the "stone" in that and brush with an old toothbrush. Don't use any abrasive cleaners or a metal brush. That is all.
post #17 of 27
PMZ: A few questions:

Are you on a race team ?

Are there others who you know that also race when you do ?

Is there a coach ?

Do you know about Tognar Toolworks ?

Tognar.com is it possible for you to order one of their catalogues ?

Or could you call the toll free number: 800-926-9904 ?

The answers to your recent stone grind and future tuning experiences lie in the answers to the above questions.

Good luck, happy turkey day and .......
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I found out that the bevel was .5, and the side was 1. Now, I have a feeling .5 might feel to grippy for me so if I want to change this, all I have to do is file it down, or should I just not screw it up again and live with it?

Second, to maintain my tune, I should just deburr with a coarse and fine diamond stone everyday, and a gummy stone, correct? Or just a gummy stone?

Lastly, after about a week of skiing on hard ice, or the day before a race or something, I should sharpen my side edge only, and just deburr my base edge, correct?

Ok, I am 100 times smarter after coming here, so thanks again!

- PMZ
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally posted by PMZ:
Ok, so I found out that the bevel was .5, and the side was 1. Now, I have a feeling .5 might feel to grippy for me so if I want to change this, all I have to do is file it down, or should I just not screw it up again and live with it?

Second, to maintain my tune, I should just deburr with a coarse and fine diamond stone everyday, and a gummy stone, correct? Or just a gummy stone?

Lastly, after about a week of skiing on hard ice, or the day before a race or something, I should sharpen my side edge only, and just deburr my base edge, correct?

Ok, I am 100 times smarter after coming here, so thanks again!

- PMZ
Have you skied on them yet? If not, try them the way they are. You might like them at .5. If you don't, use a 1 degree file guide and a file and follow Heluvaskier's directions about the marking pen. I make no more than 5 passes per edge.

Let me stress even light pressure, let the tool do the work and don't bend the file or the diamonds.

Pass 1 & 2: even over lapping strokes always pulling towards you on the opposite edge from the side of ski you are standing on.
Pass 3: longer overlaping strokes

Pass 4 & 5: one long pass tip to tail.

You can then use your 2 diamonds to polish. first coarse then fine.

I then run the gummi down each edge lightly at a 45 degree angle. Do not dull, just to remove burr. On GS SuperG & DH's I highly polish the edge with a gummi in my files guide and sometimes my side edge tool.

I am sure this will cause all kinds of rifles to fire here, so let's see what everyone else says!

Over & out!

A-man

[ November 23, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Atomicman ]
post #20 of 27
Ski on it with the .5 as you may like it.

If not, then use something accurate to move it to 1 degree.

As far as maintenance goes, you want a medium diamond stone to use if there are no serious nicks because coarse is overkill in most cases. Then do a final run with a fine stone. As others have said use the gummy for getting fine shaving off the edges.

Yes, only tune the base if it needs it.

Tuning the side is what makes it sharp.

Tuning is an ongoing thing and I also have learned new things from this board. I value the input from serious skiers who like to help people.

Be careful of what tuning tips you can find on the web as some of the tools and techniques they say to use are old or just plain wrong.

I love using tools and learning about stuff so tuning is almost as much fun as skiing for me.

Well not quite.

Especially with this shitty warm weather.
post #21 of 27
Sorry I posted at the same time as Atomicman.

Good advice
post #22 of 27
Thread Starter 
Two more questions and then I'm done, I promise!

1. How often do I file the side?

2. You both said to leave the base alone and far away from a file, but what about diamond stones, should I use diamond stones on the base as often on the sides?

great, thanks!

-PMZ
post #23 of 27
1. Once it is not sharp. Slicing your fingernail is a common test.

2. Personally I used to lightly rub a diamond stone on the base only when it has damage to it, but have recently heard that a good ski specific file that is accurate and fine enough can also be used. Once again go easy on the base and do the sides most of the time.
post #24 of 27
How often? Use stones to touch up every couple of days. If you are racing, probably after each day. The harder the snow, the tougher it is on the edges. There is a difference between touch up and tuning. Touch up is what one should do mostly. It is maintenance. Tuning is the setting of angles, the structuring of base, combining filing and stoning. You can over do it. Did you ever get a book? When Scalce speaks of the fingernail, scrape your nail perpendicular to the length of the ski. If sharp you should get a little shaving. Don't use metal files on rock shots until you have stoned the area, it is a great way to dull your files. Combine maintenance and waxing for a good running ski.
post #25 of 27
I think Greg mentioned using an aluminum edge file guide when sharpening your edges. I just wanted to reiterate that, and highly recommend that you get an edge file guide from HERE Scroll Down To SIDE EDGE FILE GUIDES

Get whatever angle you prefer (probably 3 deg.) and use a clamp like the one shown in the picture to securly clamp a GOOD File to it.

I have been using the cheaper $15 bevel guides for years, and it's all you'll ever need. You might as well pick up a 2 degree bevel while you're at it. And whatever you do, don't skimp on a good file. I prefer a 6" file for my side edges, but an 8" works well also, and will last a bit longer. I use the Laser cut file, but even the cheaper Vialla file is very good.
post #26 of 27
[quote]Originally posted by Bryan:
Quote:
Originally posted by John J:
[QB]Yikes!!?


And when you use your diamond stone, use it wet, clean it as you use it, not once a month. When it is blackened, it is not cutting efficiently.


All good info and advice, but you got me on the diamond stone cleaning. How do you clean a diamond stone? Mine are all black and all I have is a wire brush for a file. Buying new ones seems to be an awful expensive proposition.
Toothbrush and lighter fluid.
post #27 of 27
2nd vote for the toothbrush and Ronson Lighter Fluid. That's what I use. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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