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Analysis Of A Single Turn - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:

why on earth do you think I would consider that to be "pure carving", which I have stated upteen times to mean arcing?  You are not arcing there.  so its not pure carving.  But the skis have a lot of carving action happening for sure! 

 

 

 

 

BTS, you misread.  I didn't mean to say YOU would think this was pure carving.  I was just clarifying terminology usage, pointing out that what I call carving you call pure carving.  

post #32 of 56

That is true and you aren't pure carving there, so I don't understand your reference to me there.

post #33 of 56
Thread Starter 

Are you being purposefully difficult?  

post #34 of 56

Uhmmmmm  no?  

 

this is what you said:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

Here's a clip you can use for contrast to the single turn I launched this thread with.  Some may look at this turn and consider it carving, what BTS and others refer to as pure carving, but it's  actually not. 

 

You quoted my name and implied that I would refer to that video as pure carving, which is not accurate.

 

I would definitely use the word carving for that video, but not "pure" carving, which I consider to be arcing.

post #35 of 56
Rick, are we supposed to anylize this second video as well?

zenny
post #36 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:

BTS said:  

You quoted my name and implied that I would refer to that video as pure carving, which is not accurate.

 

I would definitely use the word carving for that video, but not "pure" carving, which I consider to be arcing.

 

 

 

I clarified this once already, that I was simply suggesting you and others use the term pure carving for what I call carving.  It was just a terminology clarification statement, not a suggestion that you considered that turn to be "pure carved".  I had to clarify that, because if I were to say that turn was not "carved" (by my definition) many would have been jumping up and down that it was.  I was trying to avoid that merry-go-round, but instead we get on this one.  Jiminy Christmas. 

post #37 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Rick, are we supposed to anylize this second video as well?

zenny

You can if you want, zenny.  I mainly put it up to show the contrast of what happens when I use less leg steering and waist steering force.

post #38 of 56

Relax Rick we're not out to get you, just clarifying comments.  You quoted me and implied my point of view, which I clarified, nothing more.  The way you originally stated it was not clear, I think we have all clarified it now, and you have clarified your point of view as well.

 

yes we know that you don't like to use the word carve for anything other then pure arcing.  And you are not pure arcing there, so while some of us may refer to the carving action happening there, you prefer to think of this as pure steering.  Yes?  Or at the very least, something completely devoid of any carving.  Yes?

post #39 of 56

Stop picking on Rick.

 

Analyze this !

 

 

let me guess - power steering?

 

:jedi:

post #40 of 56


Somebody had to, I figured "hey, why not me?" :-)

zenny
post #41 of 56

 


Edited by borntoski683 - 8/14/15 at 12:11pm
post #42 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

yes we know that you don't like to use the word carve for anything other then pure arcing.  And you are not pure arcing there, so while some of us may refer to the carving action happening there, you prefer to think of this as pure steering.  Yes?  Or at the very least, something completely devoid of any carving.  Yes?

 

Yes.  While you and I each know what the other is saying when using these terms, and would no longer need to clarify during a private discussion between just ourselves, others are reading too, so I always feel the need to clarify.  If you see me do so again in the future, don't take it personally, I'm not trying to hammer my point of view into you.  I'm speaking to the silent audience, so they can follow the conversation too.

post #43 of 56

I didn't take anything personally, just clarifying your original statement about my POV was incorrect.  

post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Stop picking on Rick.

 

Analyze this !

 

 

let me guess - power steering?

 

:jedi:

 

Upper body rotation pivoting.  Generally a lower skill level means of pivoting.  AKA tail tossing.  

post #45 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I didn't take anything personally, just clarifying your original statement about my POV was incorrect.  

 

Alrighty then, good.  Never meant to suggest it was your point of view.  That would have been presumptive, a possibly a tad insulting.  

post #46 of 56

hehe I have been misquoted on this site far too many times to take it personally.  I just correct the record whenever I can.

post #47 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I do not agree that you have to apply rotary forces in order to maintain the non-pure carving aspect.  I also do not agree that you have to use a pivot to start it.  That is certainly one way to do it as you are demonstrating here.  But you can also just tip your skis the right amount and they will self steer themselves into a brushed non-arcing carve.

 

Just to clarify, I don't create that ever so slight skid angle in this video with a pivot.  Pivot being a twisting of the skis downhill while disengaged with the snow.  Here I steer into the skid angle, with the skis pressured and engaged with the snow as I do.

 

A pivoted skid angle development results in no change of skier direction of travel while the pivot is taking place.  A steered skid angle development sees the change of skier direction happen all through the skid angle development period.

 

Interesting what you say about how you create skid angle.  Doesn't work like that for me.  When I tip my skis on edge they carve.  I have to do something additional to get them to break into a skid angle and steer.  What's the "right amount" of tipping that will cause them to create a skid angle?  I can tip to the lowest of edge angles, and this still just carve.  Do you have any video?

post #48 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

I do not agree that you have to apply rotary forces in order to maintain the non-pure carving aspect.  I also do not agree that you have to use a pivot to start it.  That is certainly one way to do it as you are demonstrating here.  But you can also just tip your skis the right amount and they will self steer themselves into a brushed non-arcing carve.

 

Just to clarify, I don't create that ever so slight skid angle in this video with a pivot.  Pivot being a twisting of the skis downhill while disengaged with the snow.  Here I steer into the skid angle, with the skis pressured and engaged with the snow as I do.

 

Please describe how you steer.  Twisting?  No I think you have indicated earlier you are using this pelvic torque to allegedly turn the entire skier frame, without twisting the femurs.  But what happens to the ski is kind of the same either way is it not?  If you manage to pivot the skis into steering angle..you don't want to use the word pivot, you want to use the word steer....but whatever..you are attempting to twist the ski from some muscular intervention into steering angle beyond its own self-steering capacity.  You are calling that steering.  Ok.  

 

I think the diseengagement result would be the same whether you twist the femurs or not if you are twisting the ski through any muscular means at all other then allowing them to self steer.  

 

There may be some argument to be made that at extremely slow speeds and low edge angles its possible to disengage without relevant negative consequences.  There might also be an argument to be made that your method is somehow more controllable then twisting the femurs.  Assuming you are actually doing what you described.  We can't really see that in the video, we have to take your word for it, because its rather subtle if anything.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

A pivoted skid angle development results in no change of skier direction of travel while the pivot is taking place.  

 

I agree with this, pivoting changes the direction the ski points only, UNTIL its engaged, at which point a number of different outcomes can happen.  You have stated several times that you are establishing an initial steering angle with some kind of rotary action.  In my view, that's a pivot entry.  

 

If you want to call it "steered" because its at least in some way partially engaged, ok, but a ski can simply not be moved into much steering angle while engaged without either pushing the tail out badly and/or flattening it in order to do so.  Any kind of rotational twisting of the ski while engaged is simply going to disengage it if its engaged already.  So the end result will be something closer to pivoting in my view.

 

If the ski is extremely lightly engaged, this may seem like not much because its already flat and not very engaged to begin with relatively speaking, so twisting the ski on the snow may not disengage it much more than it already is.  A little bit, but at slow speeds, it will be hardly noticeable and actually could be useful technique, I don't argue that.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

A steered skid angle development sees the change of skier direction happen all through the skid angle development period.

 

That is certainly what a lot of people seem to think.  Its possible that twisting the ski only slightly will destroy edge engagement only slightly and that it can be used to create steering angle with only small detrmintal effects to the turn shape.  I think at very slow speeds with low edge angles that is more possible.  As speeds and edge angles ramp up the effects of twisting the ski.....whether its with the femur or with some other manner, with have more of a destructive effect.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

Interesting what you say about how you create skid angle.  Doesn't work like that for me.  When I tip my skis on edge they carve.  I have to do something additional to get them to break into a skid angle and steer.  What's the "right amount" of tipping that will cause them to create a skid angle?  I can tip to the lowest of edge angles, and this still just carve.  Do you have any video?

 

Well this seems to be your main beef then doesn't it?  You have developed your way to create a brushed carve by my language, starting with a small pivot entry or if you want to call it partially engaged/steered, ok fine...  but you feel its a requirement to twist the ski into that skid angle in order to accomplish it.  You don't use femur twisting, which is good, you claim to use some other method that is difficult to see on camera, and I will take your word for it for now that this might be possible, frankly I need snow to play around with it...this method being something related to creating torque in the pelvis which can be transmitted to the ski....creating a twisting effect in the ski..perhaps in manner that is more controllable then twisting the femurs.  

 

However, tipping alone definitely can produce that.  You simply tip the ski an amount that is not enough to arc it, but enough to start the ski self-steering itself.  This is particularly easy to do if you focus on tipping the unweighted inside ski and go out of your way to hold the outside ski flat.  It won't stay flat, the inside ski tipping will move the skier into the turn causing the outside ski to tip also, but it will be less then if you try to smash on the BTE of the outside ski...and basically the ski will start brush carving very easily and simply. its not complicated.  That's one way to accomplish it, but what it really comes down to is refinement of tipping.

 

There is no twisting of the ski needed to get it into a position of skid angle.  The ski will self steer itself there.

 

But hey...a small little twist also works to establish some skid angle.  I actually used to do it that way for a long time until I finally figured out what you know who was talking about and realized I didn't need to do that.  I feel there are benefits because similar to you feeling that femur twisting is more difficult to control perhaps then this other way, I feel that its even easier to control just the right amount of steering angle by letting the ski self steer itself into that place, which it will do very readily with just a little bit of tipping.  I also find that when I try to twist the initial skid angle without tipping refinement, there is a kind of "klunk" i feel, for lack of a better description, which is like a granularity between pure arc and the first level of non-arcing that I can achieve with a sloppy over-edging tipping motion (that normally might arc as you say), but the only reason it isn't arcing is because I manually twisted the ski far enough to keep it from arcing.  I'm not explaining that very well, but that is what I feel, I feel a lost area of very slight skid angle that is possible and a transition to brushing that is more smooth when I use finesed tipping to establish brushed carving rather then twisting the ski out of arcing as it seems you are doing.

 

The twist is not needed.

 

Tipping the ski does not automatically mean it will arc.   It means it will bend and start to experience steering angle effects, which might arc or might brush, depending on your edge angle.

 

As far as videos, sorry no the best videos I know to share that demonstrate this are banned and I don't have any.  Maybe someone else can find something, I have to run out now.

post #49 of 56
That's why I pasted my ugly duckling of a glide there - there wasn't any guiding or steering going on, just edging and weight transfer. The skis were turning largely by themselves (well, at least one of them), skidded and all... I wasn't even aft at all.
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

That's why I pasted my ugly duckling of a glide there - there wasn't any guiding or steering going on, just edging and weight transfer. The skis were turning largely by themselves (well, at least one of them), skidded and all... I wasn't even aft at all.

So how did you initiated the turn? Edging nor weight transfer will do the trick?
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

 

  Here I steer into the skid angle, with the skis pressured and engaged with the snow as I do.

 

   What else do you do in this new video, compared to the first one? You first, and then we'll compare notes :-)

 

  zenny

post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

That's why I pasted my ugly duckling of a glide there - there wasn't any guiding or steering going on, just edging and weight transfer. The skis were turning largely by themselves (well, at least one of them), skidded and all... I wasn't even aft at all.

So how did you initiated the turn? Edging nor weight transfer will do the trick?


Are you say edging does not create a turn? should turns like rollerblades only appear with an edge engaged 100% ?

post #53 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

 

   What else do you do in this new video, compared to the first one? You first, and then we'll compare notes :-)

 

  zenny

 

Pretty elementary really, Watson.  

 

- Transition starts with very gentle ILE, just enough to change pressure to new outside ski, create a state of lateral imbalance, and begin my body tipping into new turn.

 

-  Execute a pole plant which in reality serves no purpose other than to display one.  

 

- Pelvic shift while transition is happening, to eliminate prior turn counter and create slight new turn counter, just enough to pronate new outside foot and load the first metatarsal side of the foot.  

 

- As skis are rolling onto their downhill edges and begin to turn, apply very light leg steering and waist steering rotary force, just enough to create the small skid angle I want to display for this particular demo.  

 

- Maintain center balance  through the duration of the turn, and similar edge angles, so the skis work together.  

 

- Utilize an edge angle that provides the medium radius turn shape I wanted via the skis self steering effect, and maintain the desired skid angle via the application of leg/waist rotary force that is so light as to be virtually effortless and almost unnoticeable.

post #54 of 56

  Considerably more speed and hence inclination via a muted step (ILE)  is what I picked up on. Looks more like between the first and second met to me :-) The greater speed and subsequent inclination increases the self steering for sure (which to my eye shapes the preponderance of the turn), perhaps a bit more inside bias as the inside ski/foot gets turned into the turn direction slightly just after the fall line (because of weighting?), but both feet have the appearance of having been steered slightly, possibly due to inclination via hip centric edging as opposed to a feet/ankles first approach, or intentional foot/leg steer, but any skid is pretty tame...

 

  zenny


Edited by zentune - 8/14/15 at 10:03pm
post #55 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

  Considerably more speed and hence inclination via a muted step (ILE)  is what I picked up on. Looks more like between the first and second met to me :-) The greater speed and subsequent inclination increases the self steering for sure (which to my eye shapes the preponderance of the turn), perhaps a bit more inside bias as the inside ski/foot gets turned into the turn direction slightly just after the fall line (because of weighting?), but both feet have the appearance of having been steered slightly, possibly due to inclination via hip centric edging as opposed to a feet/ankles first approach, or intentional foot/leg steer, but any skid is pretty tame...

 

  zenny

Well done, Zenny.  All sounds quite copacetic.   I'm just a little fuzzy on what you're seeing with the inside ski bias and inside ski getting turned to inside of turn just after the falline.  Can you expand/clarify for me?  I'll post the video again so we and others don't have to toggle back and forth.

 

post #56 of 56
Well actually both skis/ feet seem turned into turn direction, but ifocused on the inside a bit because of the rest of the content of my post and also because there is still an "incliny" feel to the video as in the first, though not as much. So the idea goes that when tipping the skis via the hip across move (ala ILE) and then perhaps not "leveling out" as much that the rotating femurs will sort of overpower the ankles a bit and so produce a sort of quasi-steered look---feet turned into the turn as opposed to being more aligned along the length of the tibia and more with the femurs...

Subtle to be sure, but I felt the foot/tibial relationship actually looked better in the first video.




zenny
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