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Junior Last

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

When junior boots list the width or last as "Junior," what does that mean in mm?   I read that is usually 100 mm.  Is that accurate?

post #2 of 17

Too general a question because there still are different last width in junior boots.  However, the ability to have a diverse selection as large as in adult sizes does not exist and for many kids even performance jr. boots will be too wide and large in volume.

 

Lou

post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 

Crap, I was hoping the term "Junior" actually meant something as far as width.  I've been perusing non-race Junior boots recently and noticed they tend not to lists lasts.  Most just say "Junior." 

 

I was asking for me rather than a kid.  I'm a teeny, tiny adult (5'1", 95 lbs) with super low volume feet and trouble flexing ANY boots.  So trying to find a boot that works for me has turned into the impossible task.  Currently, I'm in Fischer RC4 Jr. 80 race boots with one bolt removed and some of the plastic shaved down to try to improve the flex.  I could flex them a bit with the stock liners, but I now have Zipfits in them, which have been great for dealing with the slop, but the cuff of the liner is a good bit above the boot and too high on my leg.  The liners have effectively stiffened the boot to the point that I can't really flex them again (not that I could flex them great in the stock liner).  So the fit is now good, I'm essentially just locked in place.  

 

Thanks for answering, though.  


Edited by tinymoose - 8/9/15 at 8:01am
post #4 of 17

Hi Tinymoose,

 

You could try adding a spoiler between the liner and the shell to move your leg/knee forward over the boot sole this will help you to flex the boots.

 

You could also try adding a heel lift which will move load forward on the foot and get things moving for you.

 

Ultimately you need to have your center of mass ahead of the bot sole center.

 

What size circumference calf muscle at the top of the liner?

 

What boot sole length ---on the side of the boot heel?

.

mike

post #5 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

Hi Tinymoose,

 

You could try adding a spoiler between the liner and the shell to move your leg/knee forward over the boot sole this will help you to flex the boots.

 

You could also try adding a heel lift which will move load forward on the foot and get things moving for you.

 

Ultimately you need to have your center of mass ahead of the bot sole center.

 

What size circumference calf muscle at the top of the liner?

 

What boot sole length ---on the side of the boot heel?

.

mike

 

Hey, Mike!

 

My BSL is 275 on my current boots.  I'll have to wait until I get home tonight and get my boots on to check what the circumference of my calf is at the top of the liner, but it's quite small.  I have chicken legs.  The very widest part of my calf muscle is actually above the top of the liner (I believe?), but I know it's between 12-13".  

 

We've tried spoilers before and it's never made much difference flex-wise.  I have a kids booster strap on my boots, but I don't think it's made much difference either as far as the flex is concerned.  I also currently have toe lifts in my boots.  Heel lifts, for whatever reason, put me further in the backseat; toe lifts seem to get me more forward.   I'm actually in a pretty good, forward position in my current boots;  I just don't move at all.

post #6 of 17

Hi Again,

 

275 boot sole lengths are usually a 23.5 mondo size----so, What size in mondo (centimeters) do your feet measure?

 

Toe lifts on a boot do two things---they make the boot more upright and lower the heel relative to the sliding surface

 

Lowering your heels will move load toward the back of the foot, generally, which may or may not be a good thing---I do think

 

your problem is related more to your center of mass position not being in the right place fore/aft.  At your weight and size an 80 flex boot 

 

should not be a problem, even with the liner you have.

 

mike

post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

Hi Again,

 

275 boot sole lengths are usually a 23.5 mondo size----so, What size in mondo (centimeters) do your feet measure?

 

Toe lifts on a boot do two things---they make the boot more upright and lower the heel relative to the sliding surface

 

Lowering your heels will move load toward the back of the foot, generally, which may or may not be a good thing---I do think

 

your problem is related more to your center of mass position not being in the right place fore/aft.  At your weight and size an 80 flex boot 

 

should not be a problem, even with the liner you have.

 

mike

 

I know my larger foot is at or close to a 24, so they've always sized down to my smaller foot, which is somewhere between 23-24.  Don't have exact numbers, though.  This is my 3rd pair of boots, and I've always been shell fit into a 23/23.5.

post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinymoose View Post
 

 

I know my larger foot is at or close to a 24, so they've always sized down to my smaller foot, which is somewhere between 23-24.  Don't have exact numbers, though.  This is my 3rd pair of boots, and I've always been shell fit into a 23/23.5.

Ok----get back to me with the calf measurement when you can. 

 

mike

post #9 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

Ok----get back to me with the calf measurement when you can. 

 

mike

 
Calf measurement at the top of the Zipfit liners is 12.5".  Widest part of my calf is a bit above that at 13".

 

I also swapped out to my old stock liners just to see what they feel like (it's been so long!) and how the flex is in them.  I can definitely flex the boots in the stock liners, especially if I unbuckle the lowest cuff buckle (the underside of the bottom buckle hits the top of my boot... should probably be shaved down).  Unbuckling the bottom cuff buckle didn't seem to matter as much with the stiffness of the Zipfits.  Downside to the stock liner is they're not quite as snug, especially in the heel pocket.  So now I'm wondering if I should try to have padding added to the stock liners or try to find a lower volume jr. race boot in a 70/80 flex?  I think my Fischer's are advertised as having 99 mm last (not sure what Mondo point that is at though).  Stock liners definitely don't come up as high on my leg as the Zipfits.

 

I'd tried Atomic and Head when I tried my Fischer's.  They were more snug, but too low in the instep, which is why I passed on them.  Lange, Technica, and Nordica were all too big.  Haven't ever tried Rossi or Dalbello.

 

ETA:  Actually, it seems the last on my Fischer's are listed as 98mm.  Also, I realize you wouldn't ski around with the lowest cuff buckle undone, but I was curious what it felt like to not have the cuff buckle hit the top of the boot and stop motion.


Edited by tinymoose - 8/10/15 at 6:55pm
post #10 of 17

Mike and I agree about many fitting issues but not all setup issues. So I'll skip over that for now and ask why is it necessary for you to flex the boot?  Assuming you really can't flex it, how is that harming your skiing?

 

In general I agree with you that toe lifts will often help move you forward and make it easier to balance and for many people heel lifts will get you in the back seat, however as I thinkMike either said or implied heel lifts since they will stand you up straighter will absolutely make it harder to flex the boot.  Zipfits also sometimes make a boot feel stiffer.

 

By the way flex numbers are absolutely meaningless in every way.  Scott has a boot that is very narrow in the heel and relatively high in the instep.

 

Lou

post #11 of 17

5'1" 95 lbs with a size 24 foot?  I don't see that very damn often.  Maybe never.  Are you certain that is what you measure rather than that is what they are putting you in.  Your height more commonly 22 possibly even less.

 

Lou

post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
 

Mike and I agree about many fitting issues but not all setup issues. So I'll skip over that for now and ask why is it necessary for you to flex the boot?  Assuming you really can't flex it, how is that harming your skiing?

 

In general I agree with you that toe lifts will often help move you forward and make it easier to balance and for many people heel lifts will get you in the back seat, however as I thinkMike either said or implied heel lifts since they will stand you up straighter will absolutely make it harder to flex the boot.  Zipfits also sometimes make a boot feel stiffer.

 

By the way flex numbers are absolutely meaningless in every way.  Scott has a boot that is very narrow in the heel and relatively high in the instep.

 

Lou

 

I'm concerned with flex issues holding my skiing back if I'm locked in place.  That I'm not really driving the skis as much as I could if I had better flex.  This past year was my 7th yr skiing, 4th yr taking lessons (H gave me pointers my first 3 years) ... and I'd say I'm around the low advanced range at this point, but I'm really motivated to continue improving and so I want to make sure I have equipment that isn't too much for me.  

 

I wish I could tell you that my feet are smaller, but in fact they are not.  My grandfather told me it was so I don't blow away, so maybe it has its purpose?  :)  I just had my H look at the shell fit of my 23/23.5 boots.  On my smaller foot he can get 1 finger behind my heel;  my larger foot doesn't even have room for 1 finger.  

post #13 of 17

Grand dads are always sage, so I'll assume he is correct and your foot size is correct.

 

I understand your concern, but I'll also say flexing is overrated.  All the motions we go through in the store to crush the boot (I'm as guilty as everyone) are not used when we ski.  Range of ankle motion needed on skis is substantially less than what we actually have available in the joint.  But it sounds as if you are working with an instructor so take my comment as food for thought.  Have they ever mentioned your lack of ankle flexion when turning as a problem.

 

Your inability to move your boot can be caused by too much forward lean as well as by too little and Mike has discussed this.  So playing around with geometry can help a lot.

 

Inexpensive boots sometimes flex poorly due to poor materials.try on a stiffer boot but from the race category and see what happens.  They will often move easier than less expensive but lower numbered flex boots and they can be dramatically softened by a good tech.

 

Also try on something from the Dalbello Krypton series.  There are several models for women and see what happens.  Design is total different.

 

New ski designs and by that I mean the last nearly twenty years don't need to be driven like old designs and even old designs with that rep were suffering more from poor binding position selection.  You don't say what skis you are using and what length but try moving bindings forward in 1 cm increments and see what happens.

 

Lou

post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 

No instructor has ever commented that my ankle flexion, or lack thereof, is causing an issue with my turns.  I do have the common problem of rushing the beginning of my turn a bit too much (not wanting to be patient and face downhill, particularly on steeper stuff), but that's a mental thing... not the boot.  I've been told I do a good job of weighting the tip of my ski in my turns. I did have an issue in a class last year where we were practicing straightening the downhill/outside ski on the turn, and I could not do that because of the forward lean of my boots (especially with the Zipfits since they put me farther forward than the stock liners do).  My legs are just super bent in my current boots. That instructor was the one who put the toe lifts (napkins/trail maps/duct tape) in my boots to try to get me in a better position so I could at least stand up a bit straighter. I am a bit taller and less forward with the stock liners than I am in the Zipfits because there is not as much material behind my calf (I also removed the spoilers from the stock liners), which is why I was thinking of trying to make them work or at least trying to find another Jr. boot that fits a bit better so I can avoid using the Zipfits since I don't think they're doing me any favors other than getting rid of slop.  I'm a bit hesitant to go back to women's boots because my legs are so skinny and I tend to swim in them because of my high, skinny calf muscle.

 

My current ski lineup is:

 

Fischer RC4 Jr. GS ski - 150  (took an adult race clinic last year)

Line Future Spin Shorty - 147

Volkl Kenja - 149 (but I'm selling these and will replace with the Yumi in 147 since I can flex the Yumis better)

 

Bindings are all mounted at 0.

post #15 of 17

So the instructor is trying to stand you up straighter and get you off the front of the boot and you are worrying about trying to flex it.

 

I'd say get the stiffer boot you won't look back.  They will be better in every way.

 

Don't worry about whether a woman's boot or not.  Worry about last.  There are plenty of women's boots that differ from the men's only in colour and cuff height.  Look at all 98 mm boots if your foot is a "D" width or narrower and if a "C' or narrower look at some 95mm boots.  I don't think you'll be sorry once you ski them.

 

Lou

post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 

OK, so I thought I should give everyone an update.  Took my boots and stock liners to my boot fitter today.  Plan is to just scrap them and start over.  He had a a pair of last year's Lange RX 80 LV in a 22.5.  He shell fit me in them and was concerned with the length of the boot on my larger foot, but I tried them on anyhow. They are a tad snug on my larger foot.  Not terribly so, but a bit.  Toes got a bit sore wearing them around the shop for a bit.  Basically, my smaller foot needs a 22/22.5.  So I guess people have been sizing me up to 23.5 because my other foot questionably/barely crams into a 22.5?  Other than that, the last is great; they're nice and snug without even buckling the two lower buckles.  I can flex them quite a bit (there is actually some concern they're maybe too soft for me). I've never been able to flex anything so I don't know that I know what too soft feels like?  He's holding them for me until he gets this year's Chakras in.  He wants me to try those in a 22.5 before deciding.  I'm just so ecstatic about being able to flex something, out of the box even!  I think the biggest difference is that the cuff is lower so I was able to get more leverage on the boot than I normally can.  My jr. race boots definitely come up higher on my leg than these.

post #17 of 17

Everything sounds great to me except for the flex them quite a bit part.  That still concerns me but it sounds as if the fit is where you should want it to be.  The liners will pack over the first few days of skiing and you'll have more toe room.  Also, from the way you describe the length there should be room to grind the toe box out.  

 

Still I'd also look at the Chakras.  They fit many women quite well, flex nicely but are stiffer than the boot you are in now.

 

Don't forget a boot that is soft forward is also often softer laterally.

 

Lou

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