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"Oversteering:" is this a term or a movement pattern that instructors use today? - Page 9

post #241 of 259

SE don't fear the boogie man!

post #242 of 259
post #243 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

But I will say this ghost, you are into something in a round about way. First thing, skidding is relative to the snow, not the skier. It's ski/snow interaction and some amount of potential skidding due to engagement or lack thereof.

What I hear you trying to say is that the steering angle relative to the skier can be constant during a turn. That's what I meant by "maintain" above. When edges washout that is when we experience a loss of control in terms of that steering angle growing over time, which likely is not desirable. More desirable is a constant steering angle relative to the skier....which kind of seems like equal skidding front and back. But the point that I am trying to make is that in order to maintain constant steering angle for the skier, a certain degree of finesse is required that allows the tails to skid more then the tips, but not much more. It's not equal skidding. Equal skidding is something else.

Allowing the tails to skid more then the tips, but not too much more, is exactly the area of finesse needed for steering. It's primarily an edge control skill. And twisting the legs to do it easily results in excessive oversteer.


From the point of view fixed to the snow, I agree (even though I am comfortable with other points of view - I most often have the skier/driver's point of view while skiing and driving).  Oversteering uses a fine edge control and fore-aft balance skill.  The "oversteer" technique is used to adjust the fore-aft slippage balance in one direction, the amount of adjustment also varying with edge angle, and also typicaly requiriring more oversteer at the beginining of the turn to reach the amount of balanced slippage wanted.  If done right, not adjusted again until a change (in direction or speed) is wanted, and if over done, perhaps some hunting back and forth will ensue. 

post #244 of 259

As I think about this discussion it reminds me of a friend I work with on the slopes.  He is an airline pilot .  When flying planes we have access to instruments which give us feedback about what is going on with the plane in the three mutually perpendicular planes of motion; roll, pitch and yaw.  The instruments give us feed back about whether our turns are coordinated, meaning that inputs controlling motion in one plane of motion  are appropriate for the motion and inputs taking plane in another plane of motion.   Generally when flying,  we attempt to make coordinated turns because they are more efficient as well as safer.  But under certain conditions we make uncoordinated inputs for very specific outcomes, eg  slip-  for landing in a cross wind or descending at steeper angles without gaining too much airspeed.  These ideas transfer directly to skiing and I use these ideas to coach my friend.      Too much yaw (twisting the skis and/or upper body rotation)     with too little edging (roll)   creates problems with directional control on the skiis (that is, the skiis do not travel the direction they are pointed).  In flying you generally want the plane traveling the way it is pointed but not always.  This is generally true on skis but not always.   I like the idea of coordinated turns for skiing when the inputs in the three planes, edging, fore/aft balancing and rotary skills are appropriate for the intended outcome.  Also realizing that at times it is beneficial to apply inputs that are "uncoordinated" for specific outcomes.    YM

post #245 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

As I think about this discussion it reminds me of a friend I work with on the slopes.  He is an airline pilot .  When flying planes we have access to instruments which give us feedback about what is going on with the plane in the three mutually perpendicular planes of motion; roll, pitch and yaw.  The instruments give us feed back about whether our turns are coordinated, meaning that inputs controlling motion in one plane of motion  are appropriate for the motion and inputs taking plane in another plane of motion.   Generally when flying,  we attempt to make coordinated turns because they are more efficient as well as safer.  But under certain conditions we make uncoordinated inputs for very specific outcomes, eg  slip-  for landing in a cross wind or descending at steeper angles without gaining too much airspeed.  These ideas transfer directly to skiing and I use these ideas to coach my friend.      Too much yaw (twisting the skis and/or upper body rotation)     with too little edging (roll)   creates problems with directional control on the skiis (that is, the skiis do not travel the direction they are pointed).  In flying you generally want the plane traveling the way it is pointed but not always.  This is generally true on skis but not always.   I like the idea of coordinated turns for skiing when the inputs in the three planes, edging, fore/aft balancing and rotary skills are appropriate for the intended outcome.  Also realizing that at times it is beneficial to apply inputs that are "uncoordinated" for specific outcomes.    YM

 

Yaw, I totally agree.

 

post #246 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

Take care switching between your many tools dynamically on the slope.  A minor misstep could result in a painful incident.



OMG, should I be scared of being able to to do too much?   

For sure. Being too skillful is effecting skiers everywhere! Proceed with caution, BTS rolleyes.gif
post #247 of 259
Macgyver on skis, now there's a concept.
post #248 of 259

... where carrying your skill set in your front pocket gives new meaning to flex to release.

Right now, I have only two; turn left and turn right:

sHSWPLjCB6mdX0wO7xzj-aZQ_JTk62AnYZM0Yiq4aIwrWE5IEMRdcbZpewtgt9Dms-XHGnou_5OrGu8WFtEDtqUY-Tx43IIEjp_PRm1NSCY6tHTpTZvwjpkUBa4ZMTpD8j4f2EE

The Swiss are known for the army knife, clock making and financial privacy. I suppose it is a good place to stab someone in time before they find out how rich you are. :)

 

Anyways, without enough tools for a box nor tricks for a bag , some must resort to carrying a big imagination which leads me back to YM’s excellent ski pilot post.

 

Ski is to snow as wing is to air in some respects as described nicely both by YM and BTS in previous posts. I think they are on to a great physical comparison of two disciplines that are analogous to each other in a manor that readily entices visualization, sensualization and, subsequently, harmonious with teaching and learning.

 

When I was a punk ass kid, (now, you can take out the “kid”) I was always skiing and therefore, skied alone for much of that time during which I would let my imagination contort the act of skiing into many different ways of thinking. One was pretending to be a pilot in the cockpit of a plane. Not just any planes would do of course. For the big turns, I was a pilot of a B-10 bomber where having just the right direction of momentum at the release of the turn meant the perfect bullseye drop of your payload. For short turns, I was a jet fighter pilot where quickness, agility and aggression are needed for a good dogfight. Needles to say, upon the end of a good ski day on the Luftwaffe, I would have laid waste to entire continents ending any question of war with complete annihilation.

 

Having a pilot mindset for skiing will ingratiate one’s perspective to, among others, the idea that good skiing can be reduced to a series of technical inputs. Once a person’s technique is satisfactorily reduced to these specifically intended inputs, keep on high heat, add a dash of kahunas, a dollop of blazing speed, start the launch sequence, ignite the afterburn and flame on through.

 

The core aspects of this “concept” are described well by YM: fore/aft, rotary & angulation can be compared to pitch, yaw and roll. I attempt to further align these elements with their respective planes and forces in a very simplified context below:

 

roll = angulation = transverse plane = control of centrifugal forces

yaw = rotary = frontal plane = control of twisting forces

pitch = fore/aft = sagittal plane = control of gravitational forces

 

Next, I will call on Zentune's entertainingly deflecting semantical use of the terms "pelvic aim" and cross it with MGA's golf analogy of the “hole in one” concept before discussing anything related to skiing. ;)

post #249 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

roll = angulation = transverse plane = control of centrifugal forces

yaw = rotary = frontal plane = control of twisting forces

pitch = fore/aft = sagittal plane = control of gravitational forces

 

Can' t say I completely agree with your interpretation of how you align which  skill skiing  with the planes of motion.    Roll in a airplane is tipping the wing.  Tipping the wing in an aircraft is the principle element involved in creating a turn in an aircraft.  Roll in an aircraft occurs about the longitudinal axis but the longitudinal axis  in a plane is actually  what we call the sagittal axis with a skier.      Roll skiing is tipping the skis and occurs about the sagittal axis and in the frontal plane.   Angulation involves movements in three different planes.  The hip and shoulder counter rotation is a rotary movement  and occurs about the longitudinal axis in the transverse plane.   The pinch at the waist (counter balancing if you will) occurs in the  frontal plane about the sagittal axis. As we counter rotate the torso away from the direction the skis are pointing we are able to add some waist flexion to help balance the upper body out over the outside ski and this flexion occurs about the frontal (coronal)   axis in the sagittal plane .   Stepping on the rudder (yaw)  is a very poor way to create a curved path of flight in an airplane.   Similar to a pair of skis, yaw changes the way the plane faces  but poorly influences the direction of travel.  Yaw without bank in a plane has about the same effect on changing your direction of travel as does yawing a pair of flat skis.     A bit of confusion occurs in  comparing planes to a skier because the longitudinal axis in a human is the vertical axis standing and the longitudinal axis of aircraft is  from the nose to the tail.  However the ideas of roll (tipping) yaw  (rotary) and pitch  (fore/aft) remain consistent.   YM 

post #250 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

Can' t say I completely agree with your interpretation of how you align which  skill skiing  with the planes of motion.    Roll in a airplane is tipping the wing.  Tipping the wing in an aircraft is the principle element involved in creating a turn in an aircraft.  Roll in an aircraft occurs about the longitudinal axis but the longitudinal axis  in a plane is actually  what we call the sagittal axis with a skier.      Roll skiing is tipping the skis and occurs about the sagittal axis and in the frontal plane.   Angulation involves movements in three different planes.  The hip and shoulder counter rotation is a rotary movement  and occurs about the longitudinal axis in the transverse plane.   The pinch at the waist (counter balancing if you will) occurs in the  frontal plane about the sagittal axis. As we counter rotate the torso away from the direction the skis are pointing we are able to add some waist flexion to help balance the upper body out over the outside ski and this flexion occurs about the frontal (coronal)   axis in the sagittal plane .   Stepping on the rudder (yaw)  is a very poor way to create a curved path of flight in an airplane.   Similar to a pair of skis, yaw changes the way the plane faces  but poorly influences the direction of travel.  Yaw without bank in a plane has about the same effect on changing your direction of travel as does yawing a pair of flat skis.     A bit of confusion occurs in  comparing planes to a skier because the longitudinal axis in a human is the vertical axis standing and the longitudinal axis of aircraft is  from the nose to the tail.  However the ideas of roll (tipping) yaw  (rotary) and pitch  (fore/aft) remain consistent.   YM 

 

Yes, YM, thanks - definitely and over-simplification with a hitch or two at best and hoping to draw out the next level of complexity (ie: axis vs plane, etc.) and detail that you, an actual pilot, BTS and others can offer that is beyond my wheelhouse. You exceed expectations with your great response. I chose the planes that I thought where most effected by these movements in order to keep the equation to dummy level and one that may convert in an on-hill learning environment. But, an idea also needs to meet a minimum of accuracy if it is going to "fly".

 

A great example of further complexity which you bring to light is how bending forward at the waist with counter rotation produces counter balance. Here, fore/aft movement + rotary movement = angulation  which certainly blurs my previously drawn lines. My wheelhouse more lies in regards to the Luftwaffe attitude, bombing down the mountain and, of course, space travel in an over-simplified format. No need for NASA engineers for that kind of intergalactic travel. Still, there is no one who will give me the key to their plane and can't help but to wonder why.

post #251 of 259

There are some similarities between flying an airplane and skiing, but many differences I think.  Mainly the analogies that I have drawn are the way a ski reacts with the snow in some cases in a similar way to how an airplane interacts with the air.  

post #252 of 259

 Talk about "tri-plane-r" motion! :duck:

 

  zenny

post #253 of 259
It all gets confusing when you switch perspectives between the ski and the skier. The ski is something we ride upon, a plane is something we ride in. So here's a thought, how would we stand on the fuselage of that plane.
post #254 of 259
My comments earlier about planes and air had nothing to do with how the rider is standing on the skis nor how people are riding in the plane. It had solely to do with the way the airplane flys through the air and creates reactionary forces with the air to cause the plane to turn. Body positions are only interesting in as much as they effect the way the airplane or skis collide with the air or snow to create those reactionary forces. The similarities lie with the skis compared to airplane structure, not so much the people riding in them or on them, unless whatever those riders are doing is changing the attitude of the thing they are riding
Edited by borntoski683 - 8/25/15 at 7:52am
post #255 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

As I think about this discussion it reminds me of a friend I work with on the slopes.  He is an airline pilot .  When flying planes we have access to instruments which give us feedback about what is going on with the plane in the three mutually perpendicular planes of motion; roll, pitch and yaw.  The instruments give us feed back about whether our turns are coordinated, meaning that inputs controlling motion in one plane of motion  are appropriate for the motion and inputs taking plane in another plane of motion.   Generally when flying,  we attempt to make coordinated turns because they are more efficient as well as safer.  But under certain conditions we make uncoordinated inputs for very specific outcomes, eg  slip-  for landing in a cross wind or descending at steeper angles without gaining too much airspeed.  These ideas transfer directly to skiing and I use these ideas to coach my friend.      Too much yaw (twisting the skis and/or upper body rotation)     with too little edging (roll)   creates problems with directional control on the skiis (that is, the skiis do not travel the direction they are pointed).  In flying you generally want the plane traveling the way it is pointed but not always.  This is generally true on skis but not always.   I like the idea of coordinated turns for skiing when the inputs in the three planes, edging, fore/aft balancing and rotary skills are appropriate for the intended outcome.  Also realizing that at times it is beneficial to apply inputs that are "uncoordinated" for specific outcomes.    YM

 

Yaw, I totally agree.

 

 

Check out this landing of a B-52. The fuselage is at quite and angle to the runway due to the pivoting  landing gear.

The plane has lots of counter.

 

https://youtu.be/TCUHQ_-l6Qg

post #256 of 259

Wow, I never knew B-52's did that!  Most planes just beat the heck out of their tires when they land with big crab angles.

post #257 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

 

Yaw, I totally agree.

 

More than likely the plane is in a crab.    May or may not be yawed yet.  Can't be completely sure with out sitting behind the instruments.       However, landing in a cross wind the pilot  will have to yaw the plane just before touch down in order that the plane aligns it's longitudinal axis with the runway.  YM

post #258 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

Wow, I never knew B-52's did that!  Most planes just beat the heck out of their tires when they land with big crab angles.
I didn't know it could fly without the tail fin. Which is huge. In the film below the pilot says Boeing estimated it weighs about a ton.

I remember going to that mothball aicraft storage area and junkyard near Tuscon once in the early 90's. There were likely over a hundred B-52's there with their tail fins showing on the horizon.

Check this out from the early 60's . You have to go to around 4min to see it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wclfY0Meruw
post #259 of 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Yeah. You havent been around in a while I'd say :-)

http://www.epicski.com/t/141727/inside-tipping-and-outside-engagement

zenny

 

Well blow me down. Too bad it got locked before I could get into all that, without ruffling feathers.. Pretty sure I could. The inane hostility and fighting between the different teaching "labels" is a lovely example of "the narcissism of small differences". 

Competition over nuances is more entertaining than figuring out how to ski better. Or teach better.:duel:

 

Fiddlesticks, all that takes the fun out of it, eh? Alphabet soup with the mentality of patent lawyers..

 

FWIW, my favorite training/cert was an internal program at the mountain I worked at before it went wildy corporate.

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