Originally Posted by LiquidFeet
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
Razie, the difference is a pivot displaces the tips because the pivot point is underfoot. Steering can have a tip or tail pivot point but the skis have much more edge engagement.
Piggybacking on the above....
Twisting/pivoting/rotating the skis with some part of the foot as the pivot point (or even having a pivot point out under the shovel) is different from "oversteering." Femur rotation, independent leg steering, and so on describe this process. Pivot slips to schmeered turns comes to mind.
As defined in this thread and LeMaster's book, "oversteering" does not involve any muscular rotary action on the part of the skier.
As a reminder to readers who may have skipped parts of the thread...
--Oversteer #1: load the front of the skis while they are slightly edged (skidded turns) and allow the tails to slip farther than the shovels (no muscular rotation) (LeMaster's first type of oversteering)
--Oversteer #2: load the tails of the skis while they are pretty flat and allow those weighted tails to slip farther than the shovels (no muscular rotation) (LeMaster's second type of oversteering)
So summarizing, we have three ways to get the skis to turn:
--rotate them muscularly
--oversteer them and have the snow push more on one end than the other
--bend them and position oneself over them in such a way that they follow a curved non-skidding path determined by their bent shape.
yes, that's how i tend to see the difference. Steering would be "efforts" other than pivoting (or including pivoting plus other) to make the skis turn more than they would otherwise...
I disagree with the bolded statement, in the sense that it is not necessary for the skis to edge-lock carve for the sidecut to actually create a turn. As soon as we put a ski on edge, especially soft non-race skis, they will instantly bend and create a turn. skidded until there is sufficient platform angle, but a turn. This would be in my mind "the nominal turn the skis would make" or the " otherwise" in relation to steering. So steering is anything you would add to this to make them turn sharper (weighting fore/aft, pivoting).
this is why I don't like the RLM definition that much - it doesn't really distinguish between "steering" and "oversteering".
it is so easy to influence a ski that's at a small angle to get it to skid more than it would otherwise. you don't even have to weight the tails, that much. Even the timing of weight application makes a big difference: stomp on it and it will skid a quick short turn even if you're centered on it. Take your time with weight transfer and it will take a larger probably "carved" turn...
watch the effects here of quick weight transfer versus taking my time half way through (i was having all sorts of issues at that speed on the mush, but that's all i have at this speed):
even pulling in the unweighted inside ski causes stuff when traction is largely missing... I know I was trying hard to not pivot/steer at all, just tip and balance on the ski. simple ankle tension to tip/untip has large impacts on the outcome.
... at the top of the turn, your body still has a lateral momentum... and it's too easy to let that disrupt the minimal traction that's there, during tipping and weight transfer
you can also see that in the beginning i was more hopping up/down and could not control the timing of weight transfer but as I slowed that down, more flexing to transfer, everything got smoother and I could control it better, resulting in nicer turns...
Originally Posted by Tog
That definition of oversteer by RLM is pretty specific and in that way kind of limited. Plus they are both weight balanced oriented and not action oriented. He points out two ways to oversteer. The direct analogies to a car are pulling the hand brake to drift the rear wheels- sliding ski tails while flat, the weight too forward I suppose is more analogous to a dirt bike where you weight and slow the front wheel and allow the rear to slide out. (thoughts @razie?)
Yes - weight transfer is like all there is about riding motorcycles in general, but especially dirt bikes, where traction is at a premium and so easily lost...
The rear wheel on a bike can break loose and start sliding in several ways. Some good some bad.
- weighted: too much throttle - a power slide, which sounds like the oversteering
- weighted: locked with the brakes - a brake slide, which also sounds like the oversteering
- unweighted under braking (as weight transfers to the front and the rear comes up) - this also sounds like oversteering
The same is with cars, rallye cars especially, where weight transfer is paramount and the same techniques apply, like left foot braking to cause the front to get traction while still accelerating etc. On dirt bikes, the body position influences the balance so much that it's used more (sit on the tank in motocross turns, with the foot out in front to aid traction on the front rear and not loose it).
man, it feels so much like summer!!!
Edited by razie - 8/13/15 at 10:11am