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Sequential tipping - what's up with that

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

I've seen this notion mentioned quite frequently, but could not find exactly what it means or what is the bio-mechanics behind this notion? It seems to imply that the feet don't tip at the same rate or... what exactly?

 

I am not looking to get to another inside tipping discussion again, but just to clarify this little notion - what is exactly sequential tipping and why?

 

thanks

post #2 of 18

Here you go.

http://www.epicski.com/t/60724/simultaneous-tipping-vs-independent-ski-tipping

It is interesting to read how my opinion has changed in the past few years (and how some of my opinions didn't).

post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 

Ok. Thanks - so it's kind of what I thought. It will take me a while to read that entire thread...

 

So the contention is that:

- if the effort to tip/edge is similar and simultaneous, the outside ski tips faster/earlier, so then

- to get a simultaneous tipping/edging of the skis, the effort should be earlier/stronger on the inside leg.

- the timing difference we're talking about is very small.

- some focus on that so strong that you can see they're tipping the inside slightly earlier, often, like Marcel H.

 

The "counter" contention seems to be that:

- if my shins are parallel that means that

- I am tipping both at the same time

 

But it doesn't address directly the original contention which talks about the timing of the "effort" or "muscle activation".

 

Can someone shed some light onto that contention? Either physics or bio-mechanics or some bit of science of some kind? I'm still going through that thread, so maybe there's something later. So far, just assertions and feelings.

post #4 of 18
Well, you could be changing edge angles simultaneously, but the pressure application may be very independent, so it's fair to say 'simultaneously and independent'. smile.gif
post #5 of 18

Three thoughts:

Consider pure arc-2-arc carved turns on a hard surface.  A good approximation to the tipping angle of the ski and the turn radius given by Turn radius = sidecut radius x cosine(tipping angle).   Your skis need to diverge before the apex to make room for big angles and the skis need to come back together before transition, so you will tip the inside ski more than the outside ski to start with and A-frame a bit later.

 

Consider the effect of hip width and ski separation on foot tipping as the hips cross over the skis (or as the skis cross under the hips).  With wide apart skis, the hip will cross over the old inside ski first and the old outside ski later, so if you don't want to be contorted or late with inside ski tipping at transition, you need to have skis closer together there.

 

You could learn to compensate naturally for less efficient tipping to the LTE, and achieve parallel tipping without attempting to tip the inside ski sooner.  After a few decades of just tipping your feet how you want them and living with the feedback of your actions, you could probably make the skis do what you want them to do when you want them to do it.

post #6 of 18

Just thought I would jump in for a quick swim before someone throws chum in the water. 

 

Just because two or more movements may be simultaneous, it doesn't mean that the outcome of these movements are going to act simultaneously. You can tip two skis simultaneously and at the same angle but, applying different amounts of pressure will skew the outcome of that balanced input. If everything else were equal, more weight on the outside ski is naturally going to produce a quicker response and a deeper arc than the inside ski. Even when applying the same amount of pressure (50/50) left side/right side biomechanics will produce an unbalanced outcome. On the other side of the coin, for two skis to lay perfectly parallel and equally deep tracks in the snow, the left and right ski must be pressured differently. 

 

That said, I think it may be possible that we see more simultaneous tipping in slalom where "simultaneous" is in service of quickness and a bit more sequential tipping in GS where there is more focus on turn development.

post #7 of 18

The reason you see so much sequential edge change is that a lot of skiers can't release the old outside ski until they begin to feel some engagement of the new outside ski.  They need to ride opposing edges for an instant before they can give up the old turn.  They feel insecure if neither ski is engaged, even for an instant.  If you're at the skill level where your main concern is speed control on groomers, it's a very effective technique.  That's why a lot of skiers (like me) have trouble getting past it.

 

The skiers I have observed skiing that way are a little static, which leads to being a little back right when they need to be moving forward into the new turn.  That makes it hard to start the new turn, so they hang onto the old turn until the new one starts.  Often it happens so quickly that you need to be staring at their binding levers to see the sequential part, and if I ask them about they are unusually not aware they are doing it. It's really nothing more than a wedge christie, with a very small wedge.  

 

Skiers who develop better skills learn to enjoy the feeling of lightness and energy at the turn transition.  That takes better balance and the ability to move freely on your skis, and you need to be comfortable with speed and acceleration that is possible with modern skis.  Once you learn it, it's easy, but until you experience it, your body will refuse to do it.  It's like your body is smarter than you are, and it won't do new things that it feels will likely end in disaster. That's the only thing that makes learning to ski difficult.

 

BK 

post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 

The reason you see so much sequential edge change is that a lot of skiers can't release the old outside ski until they begin to feel some engagement of the new outside ski.  They need to ride opposing edges for an instant before they can give up the old turn.  They feel insecure if neither ski is engaged, even for an instant.  If you're at the skill level where your main concern is speed control on groomers, it's a very effective technique.  That's why a lot of skiers (like me) have trouble getting past it.

 

The skiers I have observed skiing that way are a little static, which leads to being a little back right when they need to be moving forward into the new turn.  That makes it hard to start the new turn, so they hang onto the old turn until the new one starts.  Often it happens so quickly that you need to be staring at their binding levers to see the sequential part, and if I ask them about they are unusually not aware they are doing it. It's really nothing more than a wedge christie, with a very small wedge.  

 

Skiers who develop better skills learn to enjoy the feeling of lightness and energy at the turn transition.  That takes better balance and the ability to move freely on your skis, and you need to be comfortable with speed and acceleration that is possible with modern skis.  Once you learn it, it's easy, but until you experience it, your body will refuse to do it.  It's like your body is smarter than you are, and it won't do new things that it feels will likely end in disaster. That's the only thing that makes learning to ski difficult.

 

BK 


You have given an accurate description of skiers who tip the new outside ski before the new inside ski.

Not much more to say about that.

However, there is something to good to be said for tipping the new inside ski before the new outside ski, as opposed to exactly at the same time.

post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 

The reason you see so much sequential edge change is that a lot of skiers can't release the old outside ski until they begin to feel some engagement of the new outside ski.  They need to ride opposing edges for an instant before they can give up the old turn.  They feel insecure if neither ski is engaged, even for an instant.  If you're at the skill level where your main concern is speed control on groomers, it's a very effective technique.  That's why a lot of skiers (like me) have trouble getting past it.

 

The skiers I have observed skiing that way are a little static, which leads to being a little back right when they need to be moving forward into the new turn.  That makes it hard to start the new turn, so they hang onto the old turn until the new one starts.  Often it happens so quickly that you need to be staring at their binding levers to see the sequential part, and if I ask them about they are unusually not aware they are doing it. It's really nothing more than a wedge christie, with a very small wedge.  

 

Skiers who develop better skills learn to enjoy the feeling of lightness and energy at the turn transition.  That takes better balance and the ability to move freely on your skis, and you need to be comfortable with speed and acceleration that is possible with modern skis.  Once you learn it, it's easy, but until you experience it, your body will refuse to do it.  It's like your body is smarter than you are, and it won't do new things that it feels will likely end in disaster. That's the only thing that makes learning to ski difficult.

 

BK 

 

I like the way you put that.  Back when  I was trying to teach my body to cross the skis to start the new turn, I read here and elsewhere to "relax" the old outside leg.   Just "relax" it.  My body said, "Right...."   I even read that you should relax it as if the leg were shot out from under you.  My body said "Really?  You (they) must be crazy!"   And it summarily refused... because as you say, it believed this relaxation would end in disaster.

 

I had to fool my body into doing it.  That did the trick.  

 

If anyone reading here has been trying to relax that leg and hasn't been able to do it yet, here's what worked for me.  It has also worked for some of my students.  Forget that leg getting shot out under you, forget "relaxing" altogether.  Instead, think of the old outside leg as a hip elevated over a boot.  The leg is long, and there is a long way from that hip to that boot.  Imagine there's a taut wire leading from the hip down to the boot.  Lower, with good strong muscular control, that hip down towards that boot.  This is a controlled movement, not a letting go of control as implied by the word "relax."  You can think of sliding the hip down the taut wire if that helps. Or think of the hip taking an elevator ride down towards the boot.  Slow is fine.  There's a lot of time to speed the whole thing up later, when "disaster" is no longer a concern.


Nothing needs to be said about the fact that doing this will incline the whole body downhill and thusly tip the skis.  The hip moving across the skis does not and should not be mentioned; that implies disaster.  Nothing needs to be said about tipping the old outside ski through flat then to the downhill edge, tipping that ankle sideways, toppling downhill, the skis catching up as they come around, or anything else.  The skier needs to focus on slowly and decisively lowering that outside hip, and nothing else.  If the skier already has skiing into counter as a habitual movement pattern, then, as the skis tip and come around, counter and angulation will happen without any conscious effort and the turn will complete itself.  

 

(If the skier does not yet have skiing into counter, it won't work so well.  Or at least when I've tried teaching it to my students who are still skiing square, it hasn't worked.)

 

There are probably lots of ways to get obstinate bodies to let go of the old turn when the body refuses to do it.  This one is my most successful tactic - so far.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 7/12/15 at 8:37pm
post #10 of 18

Or you could just say there's a bungy cord from your boot to your hip. :)

post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

The reason you see so much sequential edge change is that a lot of skiers can't release the old outside ski until they begin to feel some engagement of the new outside ski.  They need to ride opposing edges for an instant before they can give up the old turn.  They feel insecure if neither ski is engaged, even for an instant.  If you're at the skill level where your main concern is speed control on groomers, it's a very effective technique.  That's why a lot of skiers (like me) have trouble getting past it.

The skiers I have observed skiing that way are a little static, which leads to being a little back right when they need to be moving forward into the new turn.  That makes it hard to start the new turn, so they hang onto the old turn until the new one starts.  Often it happens so quickly that you need to be staring at their binding levers to see the sequential part, and if I ask them about they are unusually not aware they are doing it. It's really nothing more than a wedge christie, with a very small wedge.  

Skiers who develop better skills learn to enjoy the feeling of lightness and energy at the turn transition.  That takes better balance and the ability to move freely on your skis, and you need to be comfortable with speed and acceleration that is possible with modern skis.  Once you learn it, it's easy, but until you experience it, your body will refuse to do it.  It's like your body is smarter than you are, and it won't do new things that it feels will likely end in disaster. That's the only thing that makes learning to ski difficult.

BK 

Great explanation of a common problem. I experience the moment of both edges being simultaneously disengaged as a floating feeling in between my turns. It the eye of the storm.
post #12 of 18

Since I started skiing back in the 60s the modern carving technique has had its challenges. One of them has been skiing with parallell shins and directly coupled to that, tipping of the inside ski. Here is what I have learned. Yes, as mentioned before, muscle memory is one major obsticle but IMO its not a question of wether you tip the inside ski first or at the same time as the outside ski. Its simply a question of 2 things: the ability to tip your inside ski and how mobile your ancle joint is.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack the ability to tip the inside ski. In the old realm of straight 205s it showed up as minor A-framing. Back then it was not considered a big problem. However, now with high edge angles at an even fearly low lewel it has become an major obsticle. And the appearance of A-framing is maginified. What you need to do is to teach your self how to your your leg muscles in order to move your knee to the inside and consequently tilt that lower leg into the turn and consequently tip that inside ski onto its LTE.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack mobility in our ancle joints. This mobility is crucial. You typically hear that tipping starts from our feet and ancle but IMO its more a question of how our hip joint, upper leg muscles and ancle joint interact. Of the two joints our hip joint is more mobile. Its more mobile to start with but ecpecially with our foot locked in a tight ski boot and boot locked onto ski that is edged into the snow. What happens is that you use your upper leg muscles to move your knee into the turn while you at the same time assist by a combination of twisting your ancle and letting it flex to allow for tipping of the ski. A drill I have used with great results with myself and students is to apply pressure with your hand to the outside of your inside leg forcing you to use your leg muscles to tip to the inside. I often see the drill performed the other way arround, in such way that you press your inside leg and knee with your hand towards the inside of the turn. This displaces your knee into the turn which is correct but your leg muscles are thaught the wrong action.

 

T

post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Since I started skiing back in the 60s the modern carving technique has had its challenges. One of them has been skiing with parallell shins and directly coupled to that, tipping of the inside ski. Here is what I have learned. Yes, as mentioned before, muscle memory is one major obsticle but IMO its not a question of wether you tip the inside ski first or at the same time as the outside ski. Its simply a question of 2 things: the ability to tip your inside ski and how mobile your ancle joint is.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack the ability to tip the inside ski. In the old realm of straight 205s it showed up as minor A-framing. Back then it was not considered a big problem. However, now with high edge angles at an even fearly low lewel it has become an major obsticle. And the appearance of A-framing is maginified. What you need to do is to teach your self how to your your leg muscles in order to move your knee to the inside and consequently tilt that lower leg into the turn and consequently tip that inside ski onto its LTE.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack mobility in our ancle joints. This mobility is crucial. You typically hear that tipping starts from our feet and ancle but IMO its more a question of how our hip joint, upper leg muscles and ancle joint interact. Of the two joints our hip joint is more mobile. Its more mobile to start with but ecpecially with our foot locked in a tight ski boot and boot locked onto ski that is edged into the snow. What happens is that you use your upper leg muscles to move your knee into the turn while you at the same time assist by a combination of twisting your ancle and letting it flex to allow for tipping of the ski. A drill I have used with great results with myself and students is to apply pressure with your hand to the outside of your inside leg forcing you to use your leg muscles to tip to the inside. I often see the drill performed the other way arround, in such way that you press your inside leg and knee with your hand towards the inside of the turn. This displaces your knee into the turn which is correct but your leg muscles are thaught the wrong action.

 

T

 

Great insight on the subject.


I can see that - if ankles are not as mobile or used, that one would complement with just pointing the knee inside, from higher up. Some side-effect would include the skis diverging maybe? Also, at high performance flexed transitions, the hip/femur effort may be more prevalent - but I have been off snow for too long to have any better insight into that right now. In between the two extremes... I don't know - I really would need snow to play with it and try different things. Great idea to push the outside of the inside knee... i'll stop asking anyone to push the inside knee inside the turn - makes total sense.

post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 

The reason you see so much sequential edge change is that a lot of skiers can't release the old outside ski until they begin to feel some engagement of the new outside ski.  They need to ride opposing edges for an instant before they can give up the old turn.  They feel insecure if neither ski is engaged, even for an instant.  If you're at the skill level where your main concern is speed control on groomers, it's a very effective technique.  That's why a lot of skiers (like me) have trouble getting past it.

 

The skiers I have observed skiing that way are a little static, which leads to being a little back right when they need to be moving forward into the new turn.  That makes it hard to start the new turn, so they hang onto the old turn until the new one starts.  Often it happens so quickly that you need to be staring at their binding levers to see the sequential part, and if I ask them about they are unusually not aware they are doing it. It's really nothing more than a wedge christie, with a very small wedge.  

 

Skiers who develop better skills learn to enjoy the feeling of lightness and energy at the turn transition.  That takes better balance and the ability to move freely on your skis, and you need to be comfortable with speed and acceleration that is possible with modern skis.  Once you learn it, it's easy, but until you experience it, your body will refuse to do it.  It's like your body is smarter than you are, and it won't do new things that it feels will likely end in disaster. That's the only thing that makes learning to ski difficult.

 

BK 

Pretty insightful, succinct description from the actual mechanics, and the impediments of the mind and body to be overcome to get to good skiing. Interesting, a follow up question, often, when grooving on groomers, which are not super steep, I have noticed there are those 'uh oh times' that I am more the the inside edge of the new uphill ski even though I 'think' I have trained my mind and body well to get forward, roll over and pressure the  inside edge of the downhill ski. Interesting, why that happens, I attribute it to my enjoying that 'unbelievable lightness of the float' and so get careless and back, and have to tell myself to snap out of it, and be more careful; could be a manifestation of the phenomenon you describe lucidly. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Since I started skiing back in the 60s the modern carving technique has had its challenges. One of them has been skiing with parallell shins and directly coupled to that, tipping of the inside ski. Here is what I have learned. Yes, as mentioned before, muscle memory is one major obsticle but IMO its not a question of wether you tip the inside ski first or at the same time as the outside ski. Its simply a question of 2 things: the ability to tip your inside ski and how mobile your ancle joint is.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack the ability to tip the inside ski. In the old realm of straight 205s it showed up as minor A-framing. Back then it was not considered a big problem. However, now with high edge angles at an even fearly low lewel it has become an major obsticle. And the appearance of A-framing is maginified. What you need to do is to teach your self how to your your leg muscles in order to move your knee to the inside and consequently tilt that lower leg into the turn and consequently tip that inside ski onto its LTE.

 

Older skiers like me typically lack mobility in our ancle joints. This mobility is crucial. You typically hear that tipping starts from our feet and ancle but IMO its more a question of how our hip joint, upper leg muscles and ancle joint interact. Of the two joints our hip joint is more mobile. Its more mobile to start with but ecpecially with our foot locked in a tight ski boot and boot locked onto ski that is edged into the snow. What happens is that you use your upper leg muscles to move your knee into the turn while you at the same time assist by a combination of twisting your ancle and letting it flex to allow for tipping of the ski. A drill I have used with great results with myself and students is to apply pressure with your hand to the outside of your inside leg forcing you to use your leg muscles to tip to the inside. I often see the drill performed the other way arround, in such way that you press your inside leg and knee with your hand towards the inside of the turn. This displaces your knee into the turn which is correct but your leg muscles are thaught the wrong action.

 

T


Thanks TDK6, that is pretty much how I was taught by one and some Austrians, and a veteran of the US Military's 10th Mountain Division, and I saw this precise approach by and larger being exposited and demonstrated extensively in Swissyland, Whistler-Blackcomb, and France. Though kids were taught this, not just the one's with bones that are too stiff ! The knees and therefore femur are key, the boots aren't exactly setup for ballet moves! Very clear explanation of the elements involved. Your video on that exercise I have seen on YouTube, pretty interesting, I actually didn't "see it", i.e. you were moving your knee and hands in the opposite direction to the standard exercise, showed it to my boy, who is the expert skier in our domain, and he pointed it  out right away and then I went "Hmm interesting" , interesting training exercise.

 

One question to Tdk6 or BodeK or Marko,  about the 'A-framing', while an individual's ability to angulate to keep the center of mass in a place which allows them not to fall into a turn varies, the higher the edge angles, and hence the farther the inclination into the turn.  My understanding was, the inside leg, does NOT have any particular need to be parallel to the outside leg, it comes to a rest, to help support the body's extreme inclined position. The fact that is not exactly parallel to the outside leg, is not necessarily an indication of poor skiing, it's just biomechanics, as it helps support the extreme angles being generated and the term 'extreme' is individual specific as we are all made differently. This is why, Mr. Miller, Ms. Vonn, Mr. Hirscher, Mr. Ligety are often observed A-framing, it's not a flaw, it's a natural outcome. Please, it is a question, so look forward to further insights.

post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post
 

Pretty insightful, succinct description from the actual mechanics, and the impediments of the mind and body to be overcome to get to good skiing. Interesting, a follow up question, often, when grooving on groomers, which are not super steep, I have noticed there are those 'uh oh times' that I am more the the inside edge of the new uphill ski even though I 'think' I have trained my mind and body well to get forward, roll over and pressure the  inside edge of the downhill ski. Interesting, why that happens, I attribute it to my enjoying that 'unbelievable lightness of the float' and so get careless and back, and have to tell myself to snap out of it, and be more careful; could be a manifestation of the phenomenon you describe lucidly. 

 

 


Thanks TDK6, that is pretty much how I was taught by one and some Austrians, and a veteran of the US Military's 10th Mountain Division, and I saw this precise approach by and larger being exposited and demonstrated extensively in Swissyland, Whistler-Blackcomb, and France. Though kids were taught this, not just the one's with bones that are too stiff ! The knees and therefore femur are key, the boots aren't exactly setup for ballet moves! Very clear explanation of the elements involved. Your video on that exercise I have seen on YouTube, pretty interesting, I actually didn't "see it", i.e. you were moving your knee and hands in the opposite direction to the standard exercise, showed it to my boy, who is the expert skier in our domain, and he pointed it  out right away and then I went "Hmm interesting" , interesting training exercise.

 

One question to Tdk6 or BodeK or Marko,  about the 'A-framing', while an individual's ability to angulate to keep the center of mass in a place which allows them not to fall into a turn varies, the higher the edge angles, and hence the farther the inclination into the turn.  My understanding was, the inside leg, does NOT have any particular need to be parallel to the outside leg, it comes to a rest, to help support the body's extreme inclined position. The fact that is not exactly parallel to the outside leg, is not necessarily an indication of poor skiing, it's just biomechanics, as it helps support the extreme angles being generated and the term 'extreme' is individual specific as we are all made differently. This is why, Mr. Miller, Ms. Vonn, Mr. Hirscher, Mr. Ligety are often observed A-framing, it's not a flaw, it's a natural outcome. Please, it is a question, so look forward to further insights.

 

Hi, thanks for the ref to my video. Here it is:

 

Its kind of confusing to talk about inside and outside as the inside of the leg is not the inside of the turn. Hmmm....

 

 

In reference to your second paragraph I can only say that very seldome you see completely parallell shins of WC skiers performing at maximum edge angles. And I see less and less parallell shins overall as well. Could be that we have a trend in the opposite direction. I was watching a Euro Cup race team practicing free skiing on a very flat and soft slope this past winter due to poor visability up at the top of the mountain. They were on SG skis. They were all badly A-framing. IMO it was because they were setup for a very hard surface and very fast speeds and nothing in their SG equipment supported the reining conditions.

post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

I've seen this notion mentioned quite frequently, but could not find exactly what it means or what is the bio-mechanics behind this notion? It seems to imply that the feet don't tip at the same rate or... what exactly?

 

I am not looking to get to another inside tipping discussion again, but just to clarify this little notion - what is exactly sequential tipping and why?

 

thanks

 

Its an interesting question.  There is sometimes talk about the virtues of parallel shins, or simultaneous edge change, yet...is that really such an important thing?  We have seen various videos and pictures shared where non-simultaneous edge changes were happening and not consistently one before the other, and yet functional.

 

What I would suggest is that this outcome of simultaneous edge change is a moot point.   I think some amount of obsession on that idea of simultaneous edge change comes from seeing learning skiers struggle with releasing their down hill leg and ski.  This causes a wedge entry to happen.  That is clearly not a simultaneous edge change, its clearly sequential, but also very much less functional then say the Ted Ligety video that was shared on the other thread.  Why less functional?  because the release didn't happen in time, or perhaps at all for the learning skier, while the release did happen for Ted.  Ted makes the release happen by lightening and relaxing, even sometimes lifting his downhill leg/ski.  The learning skier is still standing on the downhill ski to some degree, is not lightening it or releasing pressure from it, nor clearing that leg out of the way for crossover.  

 

So while visually we see something similar between a learning skier and Ted in terms of some short period of time with some A framiness, Ted is not standing on both BTE's at the same time..that is the difference.

 

I think some people start to obsess about simultaneous edge change because in their view that is how to release the downhill ski and correct the problem in a learning skier that is blocking their release.  But the downhill ski can be released by simply relaxing the leg, lightening the ski, sometimes even lifting the ski if you feel like it.  Flexing the downhill leg, as LF and others have described, helps to also clear that leg out of the way so that the hip can crossover, while contributing to relaxing it and releasing pressure from it.

 

I do not like any focus at all on whether the edge change is simultaneous or sequential.  The reason is because I see the roles of the two legs as being different.  If you obsess over sequencing of the edge change, then one of the legs will forget its true role.  I see releasing and tipping of the inside ski as being the primary movement that the brain and muscles should be focused on achieving.  I see tipping of the outside leg as an OUTCOME of other things, and not a direct muscle driven movement by the skier. The outside leg needs to be concerned about balance, pressure and stacking(basically standing on it).  Turn forces and a proper release, and inside leg action too, will cause the outside leg to tip as an outcome of crossover.

 

An outside observer may watch and see both legs tipping over and think "hmm, just tip both legs together".  But when a skier gets into that mindset, the real role of the outside leg is forgotten, which is to develop balance, pressure and stacking on it, while deferring the other movements and turn dynamics to create an outcome of tipping over on that leg.  This instruction of striving for simultaneous edge change will likely lead to negative movements on the outside leg such as knee dive, lost stacking, stems and other nasties.  Not that an outcome of simultaneous edge change is bad!  It can be fine, but its not strictly essential and the mere mental focus of trying to achieve it will likely lead to unintended negative consequences on the outside leg as I just described.

 

So if someone focuses on releasing and tipping the inside leg, while thinking about standing on the outside leg, will that result in sequential or simultaneous edge changes?   Answer = YES.

 

My view is that focus on the inside leg should be releasing and tipping it.  Focus on the outside leg should be standing on it.  Chances are high that if your inside leg release is deficient, then there will be a sequential edge change, but not necessarily.  Chances are good that if your inside leg release and tipping action is happening correctly, the edge change may be simultaneous, but not necessarily.  Chances are high that if you focus your mind on simultaneous, then other bad things will quite likely happen because the outside leg will forget its primary responsibility.

 

Much ado has been made about nothing on the other thread about what should be first before the other.  This has been confused by language about "leading the tipping", etc.  Also that discussion conflated the two separate movements of releasing and tipping.

 

In my view things can and should happen simultaneously often, but one leg is doing a different action then the other leg, in terms of what we are trying to do with muscle movements, while visible outcomes may show parallel shins...or not...  Its kind of a moot point...you have to look way past that to the important roles each ski and body part are supposed to be doing, and are they doing it.  The mantra: Transfer, Release, Engage, is not a bad one.  Follow that model and the sequentialness or simultaneousness, will not be too relevant.


Edited by borntoski683 - 7/13/15 at 10:16am
post #17 of 18

@razie, I started this thread two years ago.  It's got some very good information about the problems associated with sequential turn entries.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/121976/sequential-turn-entries-and-their-problems

post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

@razie, I started this thread two years ago.  It's got some very good information about the problems associated with sequential turn entries.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/121976/sequential-turn-entries-and-their-problems

Sorry as BTS indicates....Bogus concept. 

 

 

Simultaneous edge change is great sometimes and sequential is great sometimes.

 

 

Inside ski tipping to begin the turn is great at times....outside ski tipping to start the turn, (getting on the the LTE edge early and rolling to the BTE and then progressively adding inside ski and tipping) is good sometimes. 

 

Get over it!


Edited by Atomicman - 7/16/15 at 6:41pm
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