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What inhibits some recreational skiers from completing their turns? - Page 2

post #31 of 53

After transitioning out of the old turn, edges are engaged in the new turn.  You can carve a clean line turning back down the hill, or you can smear the new turn with edges partially engaged turning down the hill.  The later provides more speed control, as the ftont of the skis are bent so the force applied to them has a component that is against your forward momentum.  IF skis are smearing (tips, mid and tail) towards the outside of the turn that smearing kills more kinetic energy.

post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

After transitioning out of the old turn, edges are engaged in the new turn.  You can carve a clean line turning back down the hill, or you can smear the new turn with edges partially engaged turning down the hill.  The later provides more speed control, as the ftont of the skis are bent so the force applied to them has a component that is against your forward momentum.  IF skis are smearing (tips, mid and tail) towards the outside of the turn that smearing kills more kinetic energy.

Ghost, don't kill your kinetic energy by skiing with consistent speed. Learning to shorten the transition with quickness in order to lengthen the arc of the carve including early entry and later exit of a ski not rolled but placed at the fully desired edge angle can and will negate most need for skid whatsoever and relegating it to a tactic to control speed which can be considered more defensive and reactionary, but, indeed, very necessary at times.Yes, it does take a certain sophistication to have a lot of smooth pivot moves to massage the turn and keep it looking smooth and in control at high speeds on rough terrain however while a very proactively downhill edge bent ski at the top of the turn may not need as much massaging towards the end of the turn. It may be considered directly anti-intuitive to many while first learning to angulate and incline directly down the fall line yet once assimilated, can be very addictive. 

 

Also, when adjusting the direction of your free skiing terrain based line and corresponding turn size and tempo, you further negate any need to scivot. pivot, skid, scarve, shmear, smear, scrape, shrape, squat, poop, etc., ect.  ....... 

post #33 of 53
huh? free skiing is hardly when versatily gets thrown out. If anything the more variable the snow, terrain, traffic, the wider the technical and tactical options must be. I think you are trying to say gates define the line more so than when not skiing gates. But at some point the terrain presents obstacles like cliffs, trees, a crevasse, etc.
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

not yet rejected

5.  if the platform angle is insufficient for the skis to hold (by "hold" I meant carve arc-to-arc without any skidding or slipping), the skis can slip downhill (by "slip" I meant an amount of slippage or skidding skillfully determined by the skier) as they are turning into the fall line.  The tails and shovels will be slipping together downhill, and the skis will be traveling along a curved path.  My guess is that this is what you are talking about.

 

Pretty close.  The underlined part is correct, but in the case of brushing above the fall line, the skis slip AWAY from the center of the turn, which is not "downhill".  Also, its highly likely that the tails will brush more then the tips.  Its also highly likely the skis will self steer themselves, which results in a tigther turn shape then pure arcs would be, which also contributes to speed control, and gets you through the fall line phase that much quicker.

 

Some people will say they can pivot their skis to get through the fall line quickly, and that is true, but in order to pivot your skis they pretty much have to be disengaged...could be lighter or flatter of both.  So during that phase, no speed control is really happening, until they are finally engaged.  But if you can get the skis steered back across the fall line the opposite direction WITHOUT disengaging them, then speed control happens while getting them turned around.  That is the big difference.  many arguments will erupt on here about the best way to steer skis, some will say you should be using strong rotary, others will say brushed caving and self steering, etc..  I hope we are not going to hammer out that point of never ending disagreement again here, but what I can say for now is that during the time you are upside down until and through the fall line, if you are pivoting the skis, then they are disengaged.  If you are able to get them to be engaged, feeling centripetal forces act on you, and doing so with brushing edges such that they both smear as well as make a tighter turn then the pure carve would be....then...you have speed control happening

post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

After transitioning out of the old turn, edges are engaged in the new turn.  You can carve a clean line turning back down the hill, or you can smear the new turn with edges partially engaged turning down the hill.  The later provides more speed control, as the ftont of the skis are bent so the force applied to them has a component that is against your forward momentum.  IF skis are smearing (tips, mid and tail) towards the outside of the turn that smearing kills more kinetic energy.

 

it kills kinetic energy, but also it allows the skis to self steer themselves into a tighter turn shape, which gets you through the fall line quicker, which helps prevent gravity from accelerating you.

post #36 of 53
You dont have to go 90deg across the slope to complete a turn. That would be completing a turn 90deg across the slope. In fact most turns are never finished more than 45deg. I know this among other things from years and years of building race courses. The general rule is that the steaper the slope the more across you need to go in order to controll your speed.

I did not have time to read through all these postings but refering to the issue of relesing a turn too early I would like to suggest this is more a problem with intermediate skiers believing releasing the old outside ski is the right technique. Think OLF. ILE type approach is better at that level. Im talking carving here.
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

huh? free skiing is hardly when versatily gets thrown out. If anything the more variable the snow, terrain, traffic, the wider the technical and tactical options must be. I think you are trying to say gates define the line more so than when not skiing gates. But at some point the terrain presents obstacles like cliffs, trees, a crevasse, etc.

 

I agree with you on these statements. However, much of this variation in movements required to meet the variations on a typical groomed slope (the context of my statements) can be contained within the realm of pure carving and making the adjustments again with turn size, shape and tempo. I agree that once stark differences in terrain presents itself such as steep, deep, bumps, trees, ice, then you are access a wider range of movements that include different types and amounts of skidding.

post #38 of 53
It really depends though. Are we talking about experts? We suffered through the early years of the short slaloms where park and riders were everywhere. No real ability to shape a carved turn beyond riding the sidecut. This led to a lot of crashes and collisions when in traffic. No versatility...
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

It really depends though. Are we talking about experts? We suffered through the early years of the short slaloms where park and riders were everywhere. No real ability to shape a carved turn beyond riding the sidecut. This led to a lot of crashes and collisions when in traffic. No versatility...

 

Park and ride is a rut that learning carvers can suffer but, through incremental advancement, it is eventually discovered that it drastically limits your quickness, agility and choices of carving variations. We soon learn that the continuity and rhythm of blended movements are the key to carving with dominance.

 

The way I see it, is that steering a fully carved ski is done in two ways. The first being the edge angle one chooses upon initial engagement (more upper body inclination) and the second, following soon after, being a slight increase or reduction in that set tipping angle (more angulation with foot/ankle tipping). Of course, when there are line miscalculations and surprise terrain enhancements, a quick pivot thrown in isn't going to kill you.

post #40 of 53
Yup but to do those pivots and skidded redirects (blended turns) you need to have learned them prior to getting in a situation of need. There in lies the conundrum for a lot of folks and the biggest problem with the carve everywhere mantra. It is only one of many ways to turn a ski.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/5/15 at 7:30am
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Yup but to do those pivots you need to have learned them prior to getting in a situation of need.

Honestly, jasp, I think the first thing I ever did on skis at six years old was make a smeary pivot upon which I fell and converted my attention to making a snowball. Since then, a goal has been to do everything but pivot whenever possible. Yes, you have to be skilled athletically for smooth move pivots at high speed in torrential conditions but not so for an intermediate learning to manage ice patches on less difficult terrain with pivots, etc.

 

Bye the way, any type of pivot is an interruption of turning forces that should be relegated to need only. When the benefit outweighs the cost, do it. Otherwise I believe it is better to place focus on movements and tactics that are more offensively aligned. Keeping your edges riding clean, smooth and damp with loose feet and articulating ankles can allow for more proactive turn control without losing the edge as does pivoting.

post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

We soon learn that the continuity and rhythm of blended movements are the key to carving with dominance.

Auf Englisch bitte.

I can carve; I can pull radius carving; I can understand tens of thousands of English words. But I have no idea what you're trying to say. Unless you're using that old ski instructor mind trick to influence the weak of will to do your bidding.
post #43 of 53
The ability to open or close the radius of a carved turn is less prevelent nowdays thanks in large part to the shapely but much shorter skis. I think the art of working the ski in the fore/aft plane was relegated to the long list of antiquated, or dangerous maneuvers. At least on 160's...
post #44 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

We soon learn that the continuity and rhythm of blended movements are the key to carving with dominance.

Auf Englisch bitte.

I can carve; I can pull radius carving; I can understand tens of thousands of English words. But I have no idea what you're trying to say. Unless you're using that old ski instructor mind trick to influence the weak of will to do your bidding.


What does "pull radius carving" mean?

post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post


Auf Englisch bitte.

I can carve; I can pull radius carving; I can understand tens of thousands of English words. But I have no idea what you're trying to say. Unless you're using that old ski instructor mind trick to influence the weak of will to do your bidding.

 

 

I see. Well enough. "carving with dominance" only has meaning within the context from which it was removed being that the static positioning of park and ride is a very non-dominate way to carve and offers much less control. Fliudity accents control and asserts dominance over the carving ski. Like a shark, never be static.

 

Now, you tell me, what does it mean to pull radius carving ? (at least to you) Please keep your answer to within my much smaller inventory of English vocabulary of about 97 words. (and growing since joining epic)

post #46 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

5.  if the platform angle is insufficient for the skis to hold (by "hold" I meant carve arc-to-arc without any skidding or slipping), the skis can slip downhill (by "slip" I meant an amount of slippage or skidding skillfully determined by the skier) as they are turning into the fall line.  The tails and shovels will be slipping together downhill, and the skis will be traveling along a curved path.  My guess is that this is what you are talking about.

Pretty close.  The underlined part is correct, but in the case of brushing above the fall line, the skis slip AWAY from the center of the turn, which is not "downhill".  Also, its highly likely that the tails will brush more then the tips.  Its also highly likely the skis will self steer themselves, which results in a tigther turn shape then pure arcs would be, which also contributes to speed control, and gets you through the fall line phase that much quicker.

 

Some people will say they can pivot their skis to get through the fall line quickly, and that is true, but in order to pivot your skis they pretty much have to be disengaged...could be lighter or flatter of both.  So during that phase, no speed control is really happening, until they are finally engaged.  But sif you can get the skis steered back across the fall line the opposite direction WITHOUT disengaging them, then speed control happens while getting them turned around.  That is the big difference.  many arguments will erupt on here about the best way to steer skis, some will say you should be using strong rotary, others will say brushed caving and self steering, etc..  I hope we are not going to hammer out that point of never ending disagreement again here, but what I can say for now is that during the time you are upside down until and through the fall line, if you are pivoting the skis, then they are disengaged.  If you are able to get them to be engaged, feeling centripetal forces act on you, and doing so with brushing edges such that they both smear as well as make a tighter turn then the pure carve would be....then...you have speed control happening

 

Hope your golf game went well today.

 

The part in red is a good revision of what I wrote.  Wish I had said it that way.

 

However, one hopes that as the skis turn to point downhill, and afterwards across the hill, that the direction of the skid is not constantly out & away.  If it continues to be out & away the whole time, you have a Z-shaped turn in the making with a pivot going on during the straight outward skid.  I think you were aware of this as you wrote this post.

 

For a round skidded turn to happen, the skidding needs to head out and away at first (I"m envisioning horizontal across the slope), then head downhill-ish, then if the skier is choosing to still skid after the skis point downhill and start to turn across the hill, that skid direction will morph into a downhill skid.  This way the top and middle phases of the turn will have a round shape. 

 

But then we get to the blue part of your post.  I want to restate it, just to make sure I'm getting what you are saying clearly.

You are saying that if your platform angle is insufficient to allow a carve, and your skis are almost flat, then you get no speed control from that part of the turn.  

 

But if you  

--almost have enough platform angle to carve (as in, no-skidding-carving) 

--if your skillful efforts are sharpening the turn (let's not argue about how this happens in this thread),

--and if you feel the snow pushing back up at you from under your skis, 

then you will get speed control during that part of the turn.  

 

Is there an easy way to describe this that wouldn't freak out most people?  These are a lot of words here.....

post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Hope your golf game went well today.

 

The part in red is a good revision of what I wrote.  Wish I had said it that way.

 

However, one hopes that as the skis turn to point downhill, and afterwards across the hill, that the direction of the skid is not constantly out & away.  If it continues to be out & away the whole time, you have a Z-shaped turn in the making with a pivot going on during the straight outward skid.  I think you were aware of this as you wrote this post.

 

For a round skidded turn to happen, the skidding needs to head out and away at first (I"m envisioning horizontal across the slope), then head downhill-ish, then if the skier is choosing to still skid after the skis point downhill and start to turn across the hill, that skid direction will morph into a downhill skid.  This way the top and middle phases of the turn will have a round shape. 

 

But then we get to the blue part of your post.  I want to restate it, just to make sure I'm getting what you are saying clearly.

You are saying that if your platform angle is insufficient to allow a carve, and your skis are almost flat, then you get no speed control from that part of the turn.  

 

But if you  

--almost have enough platform angle to carve (as in, no-skidding-carving) 

--if your skillful efforts are sharpening the turn (let's not argue about how this happens in this thread),

--and if you feel the snow pushing back up at you from under your skis, 

then you will get speed control during that part of the turn.  

 

Is there an easy way to describe this that wouldn't freak out most people?  These are a lot of words here.....

 

No my golf game totally sucks as I had a lesson this week and well....that's golf...

 

By out and away, I mean out and away from the center of the turn.  That would be downhill near the end of the turn, but not so much earlier on when the engaged edges are on the downhill side...that's all I was trying to clarify..  Most people are very familiar with skidding downhill, most are not too familiar with skidding while upside down, which is definitely not down the hill, I felt it needed to be clarified.

 

I don't understand your comment about that becoming a z shaped turn so we may not be communicating well now...

 

The part I underlined above is also not correct.  Maybe I misread something you wrote earlier, not sure.

 

This particular topic can get complicated quick, I will send you a PM about it, but would rather avoid another skidding physics kaos thread.

 

what I will simply say for now, is that my personal experience is that engagement in the top half of the turn provides a way to get more speed control happening in the top half of the turn so that in the bottom half of the turn there is more freedom to focus on releasing.  By allowing the edges to brush a bit, they are rendered less effective at converting forward momentum into the fall line.  Thus speed is lost.  Recall an interview with Ron LeMaster some years ago, there is a vid floating around somewhere, where they were talking about Ligety vs Hirscher and in the comparison of one turn, Hirscher skidded the skis a tiny bit and lost speed while Ted carried a clean carved line which redirected his forward momentum down into the fall line for effectively. 

post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

No my golf game totally sucks as I had a lesson this week and well....that's golf...

 

 

No surprise there.

post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

No my golf game totally sucks as I had a lesson this week and well....that's golf...

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

No surprise there.

No Intent to hijack but just to point out some similarities.....

 

A ski turn needs a vision where your skis are taking you. A golf swing needs a vision of were you want to the ball to go. 

 

A ski turn requires the development of centripetal force.  A golf swing requires the the development of centripetal force.

 

Just saying. 

post #50 of 53

Sorry for the typos above.  fingers moving too fast!

post #51 of 53
Here's a thought, turn finishation (yes it is a contrived non term) and downhill progress (overall downhill speed) often get seen as opposites. We are moving downhill and the core moving on a more direct path downhill means it's linear momentum will be more constant but not truly constant in the literal sense. There will be an acceleration phase and a deceleration phase which is a function of the pull of Gravity and which way we are facing relative to the pull of Gravity. The idea of early but too much edge purchase and pushing ourselves downhill assumes a slow speed though. Pumping to gain speed becomes ineffective once the speed increases. Same can be said for the absolute thinking about edge purchase early. If your core moves downhill from apex to apex most of this percieved need for traction so early goes away. Project the core accurately to where you want it to go and let the feet swoop around to where you want them to go and the rest will take care of itself. If your trying to limit your speed without braking direct the feet more across the hill from the very first turn. In that way the acceleration nevet gets out of hand. Sadly many skiers think they need to get up to speed before thinking about finishing a turn. It is that habit that ingrains the poor "finishation" skills. Especially among rec skiers who don't have the line constraints we see in the gates. The divergence, crossing, and convergence all need to happen in concert.
perhaps it would be worth suggesting we think about walking for a moment. If all we concentrated on is the feet and how they move, the core never would move and we would not be walking. Same goes for concentrating on just how the core moves.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/6/15 at 9:15pm
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

 

Now, you tell me, what does it mean to pull radius carving ? (at least to you) Please keep your answer to within my much smaller inventory of English vocabulary of about 97 words. (and growing since joining epic)

 

It means continually tightening up the turn radius all the way through the turn -- just what you or somebody had been talking about a few posts earlier.

post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
 

 

It means continually tightening up the turn radius all the way through the turn -- just what you or somebody had been talking about a few posts earlier.

 

If I had to guess, "pulling" the radius tighter is what I thought. Pulling G's was the intermediate thought. If you like to pull G's, where your chin strap tight.

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