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Turn Finish ... What does that mean to you? - Page 2

post #31 of 57

After the release - can the turn still continue to finish an additional amount?

post #32 of 57
What do you consider to be the end of the release? I'm late for my golf lesson, will respond more later
post #33 of 57
I think bts means that it is ironic that we teach people to finish their turns (which my in turn lead to a sort of "holding on" to them) and then later teach how to release them as if they are 2 separate things. This is why I don't like labeling of things like turn finish, for instance....I much prefer discussing the transition which encompasses both the end of the old turn and initiation in my book.

zenny
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

It is a bit ironic that we spend some time teaching low lever students to "finish" their turns and then spend a lot more time trying to get higher level students, including perhaps ourselves, to release better.

 

Do you see those as being mutually exclusive?

 

Perhaps the problem, if there is one, is in how we conceive turns  — there's no real finish, right?  There's flow, one arc to the next, or a line of arcs. The analytical concept, that we undertake discrete actions, each with a beginning and an end, may make release a problem.

post #35 of 57
On big reason why I like sideslips and garlands btw...

zenny
post #36 of 57

zenny I agree about this descriptive conundrum.  Holding on to the turn too long is a flaw while not finishing it is as well.

 

I have been coached to release the edges and yet to continue to allow the skis to turn a bit longer, thus blending the movements.  

 

bts, I never said anything about the "end of the release."   Just the flattening of the skis while allowing them to continue to move across the hill.

post #37 of 57
Yeah they will continue "that way" for a (usually) quite short duration.

zenny
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

After the release - can the turn still continue to finish an additional amount?
Only for an incomplete release that, unless is intentional tactically (speed control, delayed transition, etc.) could be considered sloppy or at least somewhat lackadaisical for a racer. Otherwise, I think the term "release" is mostly considered in its complete form.
post #39 of 57

That's what I thought zenny.  Helps them to ride the wall!

post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

After the release - can the turn still continue to finish an additional amount?
Only for an incomplete release that, unless is intentional tactically, could be considered sloppy. Otherwise, I think the term "release" is mostly considered in its complete form.

 

Rich, patience after the release helps embed the movement pattern of the skis turning you, rather than you turning the skis.

post #41 of 57
Regardless though, it is usually beneficial to get things headed the other way earlier rather than later (in the "C" sense). By things, I mean edging (even low angle edging aka steering).

zenny
post #42 of 57
Thread Starter 

Does anyone here consider there to be a significant difference between "finishing a turn" and "completing a turn?"  

Or are these phrases usually interchangeable?  
 

post #43 of 57

I’m only a layperson recreational skier here… An instructor I had in the spring asked me to think about the turns as being on a rheostat, and I found this concept to be very helpful. Before that, my mental construct was in a subtle way more “Start” and then “Finish” and “Start” and then “Finish” emphases (although not that abrupt). Using a rheostat as a model helps me for now.

post #44 of 57
LF, impatience and misunderstanding of what they see is the usual culprit when rec skiers fail to finish their turns. As MR pointed out racers finish their turns enough to set themselves up well for the next gate. Too round and they are slower because of the extra distance. Too direct and even they end up skidding late in that turn. But the important skill set required to prosecute that more direct line is learned while perfecting the round, high line as fast as possible. Only then can they look for short cuts that will not force them to skid the bottom half of that next turn and thus scrub huge speed.
post #45 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

What do you consider to be the end of the release? I'm late for my golf lesson, will respond more later
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

I think bts means that it is ironic that we teach people to finish their turns (which my in turn lead to a sort of "holding on" to them) and then later teach how to release them as if they are 2 separate things. This is why I don't like labeling of things like turn finish, for instance....I much prefer discussing the transition which encompasses both the end of the old turn and initiation in my book.

zenny

 

Yep

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

zenny I agree about this descriptive conundrum.  Holding on to the turn too long is a flaw while not finishing it is as well.

 

I have been coached to release the edges and yet to continue to allow the skis to turn a bit longer, thus blending the movements.  

 

bts, I never said anything about the "end of the release."   Just the flattening of the skis while allowing them to continue to move across the hill.

 

What I was getting to is that you said something about "after" the release.  So that depends on what you mean when you say release.  I'm going to take a guess by various things you have said that by release, you are referring to the first initiation of release movements but not neccessarily the end of the releasing phase.  As the edges are in the process of rolling off edge, that seems to be in the "after" time you are referring to...where some turn finishing can still be taking place...and I agree with you if that's what you mean.  There is a lot more that can be said about that, how to go about doing that.  I hinted to this earlier, releasing takes time, its not sudden.  You have to make some initiating movements and go through a releasing phase, until the edges are finally fully released, and during the releasing phase, the skis are still engaged to some extent, still turning.  

 

And you can be releasing the CoM and releasing the edges at different rates.  For example, releasing the CoM, while still holding onto the edges a little longer, or allowing the edges to release a little bit slower then releasing of the CoM, etc..  So for example, you can initiate a release of the CoM, but use a bit of late in the turn knee angulation to preserve a bit of edge angle, even as the CoM is releasing out of the turn.  The ski edges are fated to release also, but you can delay it behind release of the CoM to get a little bit more turn finish will still facilitating a complete and good release.  

 

So yes, I like the coaching you got to continue to allow the skis to turn a bit longer, even while in the process of releasing from the turn.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Yeah they will continue "that way" for a (usually) quite short duration.

zenny

 

I agree, its not going to be much time once a release is triggered.

post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

What I was getting to is that you said something about "after" the release.  So that depends on what you mean when you say release.  I'm going to take a guess by various things you have said that by release, you are referring to the first initiation of release movements but not neccessarily the end of the releasing phase.  As the edges are in the process of rolling off edge, that seems to be in the "after" time you are referring to...where some turn finishing can still be taking place...and I agree with you if that's what you mean.  ...

 

So yes, I like the coaching you got to continue to allow the skis to turn a bit longer, even while in the process of releasing from the turn.  

 

 

 

Yes that is what I meant.  I find that I can finish my turns much more successfully by keeping this focus.  It allows a patient turn initiation, and has helped to rid the pivot at the top of the turn.

 

I still do experience the x-move here, or as JF calls it - riding the wall.  That visualization, reaching, even foot squirt, helps me to make the turns rounder and more complete.  I realize that you don't like the x-move concept, but in my experience it is not counter to most of what you propose.

post #47 of 57

no comment about X-move now.  No I don't like it, but this thread is about something else. 

post #48 of 57
Actually the X move is the finishing face of the turn
post #49 of 57

if you think its related to the topic then by all means elaborate on it, but I will not comment unless I think its related to the topic.  As you know I have nothing good to say about foot squirt...  I will try to refrain for the sake of thread sannity

post #50 of 57

Well I don't feel a need to elaborate on it either, just mentioned that it helped me finish my turns, and that it was related to the topic in my mind.  

post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

 

Rich, patience after the release helps embed the movement pattern of the skis turning you, rather than you turning the skis.

 

That makes sense to me but not the "continuing to turn after release". Are you describing a partial release or a delayed release? And resulting in skidding/scarving? I understand the advice of having patience and allowing the turn to develop and letting your skis "come around" for you but it seems that is more relevant to the start of a new turn and not the end/finish of the previous turn.

 

I think there are many, many versions of similar techniques, tactics, movements and maneuvers when considering all the variable context of terrain, surface conditions, intent, individual biomechanics, stage of development, speed, turn size, equipment. This is the complexity that presents a big challenge for anyone attempting to get their own point across without all the arguing. 

 

In the context of racing, what you are saying sounds more to me like a delay or speed control tactic but not the clean transition a racer will seek in ideal conditions. In the context of making (or attempting to make) athletic and technically proficient turns at full speed on blue groomers (aka: arc to arc) there is almost no reason not to have a clean transition on every turn with quick and crisp release and re-engagement.

post #52 of 57

Rich I've heard it called a patience turn, and as zentune said, it's a very brief period of time.  The skis start to tip to their downhill edges, once they're flat, before the new edges engage, you have a choice between steering (or pivoting) them or letting them continue in the direction they were going for a very short amount of time

 

In racing that moment is often used to steer, to set the initial steering angle as Lemaster calls it.  That allows a redirection without skidding/scarving.  However if you allow them to continue to complete the old turn, and then engage the downhill edges the skis will enter the new turn more cleanly.  Patience is huge for me, because I have many years of bad habits, including twisting my skis into the new turn too soon.

 

Make sense?

post #53 of 57
Thread Starter 

Below you see two screen shots from a Tina Maze video posted recently.  The first shot shows the final nanoseconds of a turn.  The second shows her after the CoM is released.  She's still on the old edges, with her skis continuing in the old turn direction.  But her upper body has been released, and is traveling across the skis and downhill towards the inside of the new turn (showing the famed "X move" in action as the CoM crosses the skis).  

 

I think this is what SMJ is talking about -- releasing the CoM before releasing the edges.  Some may say the edges have been released in that second frame, but I think it's more informative to say there are two releases going on, with the CoM being released first.  Those uphill edges are still tracking.  The skis are flatter but they have not yet given up their directional travel and grip, while decisive new things are happening with the body above.

 

post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

While thinking about this subject, finishing a turn, or turn finish if you perfer, I wondered about race coaches.  
There would be no reason to use the phrase "turn finish" would there, if one were coaching racers?  

"Line" would replace all phrases that instructors of recreational skiers use to refer to phases of a turn.

For racers, getting around a sequence of gates with the smallest loss of speed is the goal.

Doing that has to do with choosing a line and figuring out how to stay on it as cleanly as possible.

 

Some of the cues around turn ending are skis flat and switching the edges. Some others have to do with pressure (apex). In racing we focus on these cues and the timing of rather than a vague notion of "turn ending".

 

The aim is to get off the old edges as soon as possible and switch to the new edges. But you can't do that without taking the line into account or you miss the next gate :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Hey you race coaches and racers, @zentune@razie@Jamt@MastersRacer, @tdk6@ScotsSkier, and everyone else who's participated in race training programs, do you use or hear the phrase "finish your turns" as a part of race coaching?  Is it a common phrase used in training, as it is with recreational skier instructors?  How does it get used?

 

My guess, and I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, is that terms and phrases that refer to the gates such as high, wide, tight, low, early or late, and rise line might be more useful during race training.  "Finish your turns" doesn't refer to the gates nor the line through them at all.  In reference to the turns alone, perhaps rounder turns, or sharper turns would be helpful to racers, but "finishing"....?

 

The much simpler dictum "finish your turns" is quite prevalent among recreational instructors, as it helps skiers maintain constant speed by using turn shape instead of hockey-stop style braking.  

 

For sure in training you need to finish your turns and we work a lot on that. That's where speed control comes from, getting across the hill and energy/float and starting the new turn is very dependent on how you finish the old one. There are couple ways to finish your turns.

 

as far as the relation to the gate goes, there are a few lines, we call them the early or safe line, the 50/50 and the aggressive line. The safe turn is one done mostly above the gate. The aggressive one is later - you don't have as much time for the next gate quite obviously. One of the traits of the top racers is how many aggressive turns they can link together.

 

this can be a long discussion ;)


Edited by razie - 7/3/15 at 5:59am
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Rich I've heard it called a patience turn, and as zentune said, it's a very brief period of time.  The skis start to tip to their downhill edges, once they're flat, before the new edges engage, you have a choice between steering (or pivoting) them or letting them continue in the direction they were going for a very short amount of time

In racing that moment is often used to steer, to set the initial steering angle as Lemaster calls it.  That allows a redirection without skidding/scarving.  However if you allow them to continue to complete the old turn, and then engage the downhill edges the skis will enter the new turn more cleanly.  Patience is huge for me, because I have many years of bad habits, including twisting my skis into the new turn too soon.

Make sense?

Edit: Forgot what I was doing ...

OK, I think I see what you are saying more clearly. While one may chose not to, that is the moment in transition where one might employ anything from a non-skiidded "full float" redirection to some version of a pivoting Worldcup giant slalom 40 mph hockey stop. Also, to make sure, could you also be referencing what LF is saying about how your CoM can be released and already headed into the new turn before the skis complete the previous one? That is, however, not a skid, scivot, pivot or redirection for those stills of the video further up. I love watching the super dynamic worldcup slalom skiers blended variations of cross under/cross over move - full separation at high speed with a bucking release and a smooth ride ... nice ...
Edited by Rich666 - 7/3/15 at 5:04pm
post #56 of 57

The movement of the upperbody/COM over the feet towards the direction of the next turn...($.01 guess)

post #57 of 57

What it means to me depends what you mean by it.  To some it's a process, to others it's a point.

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